I still think it would work, well, interestingly at least. And nobody wants to note I solved the Cloud with Anyone dilemna… No credit, no credit at all… :eek:
Except it gives the darks 13 nations and they aready win more with only 12.
See ya,
Ken
It’s a heavily tweaked game (extra fortifications, improved pops, etc…) that can be “adjusted” back downwards. And the most common complaint is the Cloud as a member of a triplet (I was going to say threesome…but thought better of it…er…ooops…). But yeah, I know I’m reaching, I’m just looking for something that’s potentially interesting and not the kind of adminstrative headache that I’ve seen elsewhere…!
13V12, no matter how you try to sell it Brad it just ain’t going to work. Put
it down as ‘interesting’ but it just needs so much tweaking to workable. Now
who will sign up for the Free team against 13 DS…?
I am in GB 19 right now. It will be interesting to talk about this one when it ends.
I would play GB as it is currently modified. I would play GB with the unmodified setups. I would tweak GB, if given divine authority:
First thought- I would play the 12vs12 DSvsFP where: the FP nation pairings were tweaked in advance by the designated FP players, and perhaps a limited diplo was allowed between FPs but not DS.
I would still limit the pre-game communication between FPs to nil, indicating only to HQ what their desired pairings might be. The pre-game communication could be one way, and in corresponding rounds. FP players each send in 6 pairings of all 12 nations in round 1. HQ accepts all similar pairings that are also on each of those 6 players’ lists and HQ rejects all other nation pairings. HQ does NOT allocate these consensus pairings until all6 pairs are determined. HQ then sends back the unused nations for the 6 players to again independantly pair up. Repeat add nauseum, until the FP players have picked the pairs via consensus, and then have HQ randomly assign the players to the final pairs. The pre-game rounds might last a few days, but integrity is built in to the system where 1) the FP players do not know who their teammates are and 2) the FP players are not guaranteed any particular pairing so they should default to choosing optimally balanced pairs. Perhaps 6 players choose DU-NE, but it is unlikely to have anyone choose NM-HA.
Perhaps this kind of pre-game process would get some of the more experienced players to buy into the FP side; before anything else ask for players to sign up as FP and after a finite amount of time accept all others. That in itself would alleviate some inequalities in the game.
Lots of good discussion here.
I agree that CL should not be in a threesome.
I agree that double Scouter nations shouldn’t be paired with NE or CL.
I don’t think we should further limit things, except that ME Games should ascertain if a player is dropping to help their side. This has happened before. If you know that your nation pair is bearing the brunt of attack of the other side and can’t support each other (let’s pick SG/EO for example), and if you drop your two nations will be split and taken up by other nation-pairs making 2 threesomes that Can support the nations under attack, you are gaming the system by dropping. This shouldn’t be allowed by ME Games. i.e. if they see that the two nation pair is in serious trouble and that both nations will together likely die, but if separated and added to 2 other strong nation pairings, both will survive, ME games should not allow the nations to be picked up. That’s taking sides by propping up a side, not being a neutral moderator.
The thing that ticks me off most in GB is when you execute a great strategy to take down a nation-pair, and the player drops and the nations get distributed to other nations that now prop them up. That is just plain wrong and just as bad as putting CL with QA IMHO.
I agree that nation pairings-changes should be published IMMEDIATELY to the players in the game in the frontsheet (not “sometime later”)
I agree that if a nation changes hands, that the past turn sheets should NOT be given to the new owner.
Dave
FOR THE DARKS: I generally agree with Clint’s assessment, except that I’d add the CL as not being allowed to join the WK / Dark Lts.
This has come up twice. Ken’s comments that basically the Cloud Lord can only go with BS/Dog combo is valid here. I’ve gone with Cloud Lord can’t be part of a 3 nation team but with the below restrictions. (I’ve taken on lots of the feedback but getting a list that everyone agrees is correct is going to be impossible I feel. I think the below set of rules updates are reasonably good though.
Suggested Gunboat changes for future games
1) A pool of players come forwards that offer to pick up a nation should we not be able to find players outside the game for GB drops. They would be offered an additional free turn for the pick up (ie 2 free turns) with a guarantee that they pay for 5 turns (if the game ends any not used turns would be refunded). After that they’d get an additional free turn if they are still playing only one nation. They’d be eligible to pick up a dropped nation as first preference (along with other players on 1 nation). If we can’t get a player to pick up a nation then in that situation we’d allow the 3) to occur.
Note dropped duos could be picked up and split between 2 players- no special offer then.
I’ve only had one or two offers for this - if you want me to implement this rule I need more players.
2) Future games we not allow old turns for the 3rd nation.
3) Gunboat 1650 FP
Woodmen/Arthedain not allowed with: Cardolan, Dwarves, Sindar, Noldo
Northmen/Dwarves n/a: Eothraim
Eothraim/South Gondor n/a: Northmen, North Gondor, Harad
Cardolan/Sindar n/a: Arthedian, Noldo, Dunlendings
North Gondor/Dunlendings n/a: South Gondor
Noldo/Harad n/a: Woodmen, South Gondor, Sindar, Dunlendings
If a nation is down to one nation then it can pick up any other nation except Noldo can’t pick up Woodmen or Dunlendings.
Gunboat 1650 DS
Witch King/Dark Lieutenants n/a: All allowed
Dragon Lord/Corsairs n/a: Cloud Lord, Quiet Avenger,
Dog Lord/Blind Sorcerer n/a: All allowed
Cloud Lord/Rhudaur n/a: Dragon Lord, Ice King, Quiet Avenger
Ice King/Long Rider n/a: Dragon Lord, Cloud Lord
Quiet Avenger/Fire King n/a: Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider
If a nation is down to one nation then it can pick up any other nation except Cloud Lord can’t pick up Quiet Avenger or Dragon Lord. Cloud Lord can’t be part of a 3 nation team.
So for example WK/Dk/Cl wouldn’t be allowed but if either of the WK/Dk died and the Fk/Cl duo drop then you could end up with, for example, DkL/CL.
You guys happy with this? I don’t like the 13v12 game at all but limited diplos are fine with me (but that’s upto you guys). There’s been more requests for no-drop games - but that’s not possible to have the game where you cannot drop I’m afraid (RW issues get in the way). We can have games were no-drop are set but I feel that we can’t 100% enforce it - which means that you are much more likely not to drop (if you do drop you can not play another no-drop game for example).
Clint
The thing that ticks me off most in GB is when you execute a great strategy to take down a nation-pair, and the player drops and the nations get distributed to other nations that now prop them up.
As a player this ticks me off as well… 
Can’t comment more at present. :o
Clint (player)
Just say “NO” to diplos in GB. They help the DS far more than the FP.
Dave
Clint,
Proposed rule changes are fine by me…
Guy
Proposed rule changes look good to me as well.
tim
So, would you agree that ME Games won’t “save” a failed/failing nation-pair that was targeted for destruction by splitting them and pairing them up with strong nation pairs? i.e. they should die if the player quits.
Dave
First: As a clarification a person picking up a 2 nation pairing should get all old turns, only 3 nation pairing do not get old turns correct?
Like the rule alterations overall.
I have one more rule to suggest, it is simple and makes things fair for the whole beat down spliting rule. There is no real way for Clint and crew to determine why a player is dropping, they would have to keep tabs on the game and there are many games.
Just have the 2 turn rule.
2 turn rule: A pairing can not be split up to allies (either 2 or 3 nation groupings) for two turns after the player droppping quits. Pick ups of the two nation pair by players outside the game can occur before this period.
This prevents (to a good degree) the 2 beaten down nations becoming 6 nation monster thing.
Heck with it you could probably cool down the restricted pairing to no noldo or CL double scout combos and no CL triple pairings. Might be simpler to impliment, but the other system (plus the 2 turn rule) might be the best total package.
See ya,
Ken
So, would you agree that ME Games won’t “save” a failed/failing nation-pair that
No that’s not the case - ME will do that. Not for the purpose of saving it but just due to the 3 nation rule.
I think most of the problem is the 3 nation rule in the game (I’d say that overall it helps out, but sometimes it somewhat penalises the other side) - the other things are “knock-on” effects of players playing 3 nations. The problem that comes up is due to players dropping in the first place, but I can’t see an easy solution to that. If there are players who are happy to be on the “pick-up” nation list that would certainly help.
Clint
The no-drop rule is a good one, especially if that is person is banned from playing in another no-drop game for some period of time. It needs to be recognized that these games require a higher level of commitment. Besides, the time required isn’t that large anyhow since you have no one to coordinate with.
As mentioned earlier, I’d be happy to be on a “pick-up” nation list.
Bernout
Surely Clint, you see that this then puts you, the moderator, into a position of helping one side and penalizing the other side? One of the best strategies in GB is to go after a nation pair. If the attack is effective, that nation pair shouldn’t be allowed to “resurrect” itself by the player quitting and the nations getting split off to be supported by other strong nation pairs. That’s just not right and goes against the whole idea of GB.
Ken’s idea of waiting a mandatory 2 turns if the nations are to be split up and handed to existing team-mates is a reasonable compromise. And I agree with Ken that there should be no mandatory 2-turn penalty if the nation pair is being taken up by someone not already in the game.
Dave
As I think about it more, the rules listed are complex for most people and are not required to be seen as they may reduce the interest of people to play Gunboat.
How about the following:
New Gunboat Rules:
In the case of dropped nations, the following rules apply:
1) 1 extra free turn!: People who pick up gunboat nations recieve the first turn of both nations free as normal, but now recieve an additional free turn for any surviving nations on the 4th turn after picking up the nations. You can be placed on a list to fill gunboat vacancies, ask Clint for more information.
2) Two turn rule: A pairing can not be split up to allies (either 2 or 3 nation groupings) for two turns after the player droppping quits. Pick ups of the two nation pair by players outside the game can occur before this period.
3) Three nation pairings: The Noldo and CL nations will never be placed in the same pairing as a double scout nation and the CL nation will never be placed in a triple nation grouping. Old turns will not be provided of 3rd nations picked-up. Note: Some nations will not be available to some pairings as determined by MEPBM Games.
Quick, easy, and rememberable. (Clint then keeps the list of no nation groupings for his own reference). The 4th turn free is easier to understand then you get 2 turns free but have to pay for 5 then you get X amount back on thursday if your two nations aren’t bankrupt or if one is, take the 4th factorial of the turn in which the nation bankrupted, multiple the number of turns the previous player played the game by 1 sum X and this amount, add that number to $1.50 and then spin around fast enough to forget it or apply it as credit to your account (players choice on every day but monday in which case Clint chooses for you). Note any requests for refunds on thursday will force you to play on a team with Ed Mills for 10 turns and then be the selected nation to go into controlled bankrupty so he can take your best characters without having to worry about gold thefts stopping him from making his own.
I know good comedy when I see it; that’s hilarious. <g>
Yes, Ken wins the coveted ME comedian of the week award!
Clint, any comments on the 1 2 3 rule set posted above?
See ya,
Ken