did any of you know theres a limit to the number of hostages that can be held in a game. not by single character, not by a single nation, not by a single allegiance, but a limit like the pop center limit. if you surpass the limit, all kidnap attempts fail.
clint it is what it is, but the number should be public knowledge. its unfair, but like gravity, its a fact that isn’t going away.
please acknowledge the number exists,and what the number is. i’m too unhappy to count the guys both sides are holding in uk 73.
kudos the tony z, the cloud lord, for the huge body count.
This has come up before. It’s one of those hidden aspects of the game that some players have found out. We’ve also discussed it on the forum/list before. I don’t know what the limit is (same for PC placement I don’t know what the limit is) but some players have worked it out - it’s one of those to be discovered in the course of play. I guess the first time players came up against the Pop centre placement limit there was a shock but players are now aware of it and plan for it.
There’s other limits like that in the game but they generally (ie never have in all the years of running) don’t come up. I vaguely recall there’s a personal challenge limit but I’m not sure.
i buy the fog of war issue, i really do, when it applies to a randon variable.
the kidnap limit isn’t fog of war, its " i know, and i am not sharing". this is not a criticism of you ed, i tend to agree with some of your stances on game play. however, this i am totally opposed to, as it gives “those in the know” an advantage. like questions on movement. its a basic game mechanic, why make it a secret?
randomizing values and locations is fog of war, the more random, the merrier.once the game begins, if its in the rules, its fair game. i’d rather win or lose on at a level start, then one where the deck is even slightly stacked before the deal. this is a game, a place where the price of defeat is a few bucks, and a brusied ego. the real world has higher stakes, but in here, its fun and games.
sm
About three years ago one of our great Scandanavian players ran into the kidnap limit. I’m pretty sure this was the first time in the history of the game that this happened. He asked Clint about it and Clint asked GSI.
GSI sent Clint a laundry list of parameters, including the kidnap limit. Clint published the kidnap limit at that time, but not the others.
I could not agree more. I love the “old GSI days” with regard to communication. I would play all GB if it were possible so the fog of war appeals to me greatly. I think it ludicrous to not disclose ALL the rules of the game. Can you imagine buying a Sid Meier game and the rulebook saying, “many aspects of this game can only be determined by play”
I have played between 50 and 75 games so I guess I may know more that some but still I can’t understand why all the rules of the game are not made known. If I were a new player reading some of the posts out here I doubt I would hang around.
I would much rather decimate my opponent because I played better than because I may have had more knowledge of some rule or nuance of the game.
So, if the market algorithm was published, that create a level playing field (everyone knows the rules). But, it would help anyone who was fantastic at math or excel or statistical analysis much more than mortals like myself. I think you can take “publish the rules” too far… and I guess that any side that are holding 50 characters hostage (2.5 nations!) dont need too much more help
I once played in another PBM (back when it was PBM) and all the algorithms and such were published for troops and economics and such. It leveled the playing field, but extremely boring. Everyone did the same thing, had the same stuff, used the same orders. It was very very boring, I played it twice, maybe three times, then dropped it
[QUOTE=Celebion] I think it ludicrous to not disclose ALL the rules of the game. Can you imagine buying a Sid Meier game and the rulebook saying, “many aspects of this game can only be determined by play”
This, of course, is one of the fissures among those who play this game.
We have a 124 page rulebook and 16 pages of Houserules. If we had four-hundred pages of rules, complete with higher mathematics, we would run off the newbies for sure.
Real Life and real combat is not chess. There are many chess-like games out there and I oppose continued movement in that direction. In this game you cain (or could) apply Sun Tzu’s maxims and many of Frontinius’ ruses. How many games can you do that with?
If I may digress a bit on ruses. In Viet-Nam we killed the VC battalion commander in our OpZ with a ruse. Some years later I read where the Byzantine Emperor Alexis recovered the city of Sinope with the very same ruse. Subsequently, I have used that particular ruse with both GSI and Harley and they worked. How much more ‘realistic’ can you get without actually hurting someone? One of the reasons I admire Stassun and Feilds’ artistic creation is that it is both flexible and ‘realistic’.
I think it ludicrous to not disclose ALL the rules of the game. Can you imagine buying a Sid Meier game and the rulebook saying, “many aspects of this game can only be determined by play”
Yes there are lots of games on the market where you “plug and play” and it’s becoming more of the industry standard so yes I can very much imagine that. Saying that I think that 99.99% of the rules are there and sometimes there’s clairfication needed and I’ve tried giving the examples where it’s happened - the other situations - the game goes it’s own merry way and we are happy to stay out of it. Just in case you guys wondered, spending 30 hours writing emails and replying to queries isn’t my idea of fun…
So I think it’s been 2 or 3 times in 5 years that we’ve had to clarify something like - in that time I’d estimate around 500 games (elsewhere as well as the English games) have run with over 10,000 turns - so that’s around 0.03% way less than 1%. Compare that with how often you’ve taken your car in to be fixed in the same time, software on your computer not work the way it was meant to and this is in a medium were we’re still creating new things.
So I’m reasonably happy with that and if you guys aren’t then your standards are a tad high IMHO and I doubt that anything I can do would make you happy…
Lucklily it seems that most of you are happy most of the time otherwise you’d not be playing. Saying that we are looking to improve the game and our service within the limits we have and take feedback (preferably polite) and test it out in the player base at large. What more could we do? Perfection… ?
As a fairly new player I definitely agree with Celebion on this one. Good experienced players still have the advantage of knowing the balance of the game and what is or isn’t practical. Especially since a game is a major commitment in terms of time. That’s why I have been worried in the past at the suggestion made occasionally that the given rules are sometimes deliberately misleading.
Personally I think the new player is the key any growth of the MEPBM so anything that helps them is a good idea in my view. My guess is that the many “vets” that want to horde their secrets probably would not win as much hence the status quo is preferred which is also the easiest.
I am not going to stand on the street corner and beat a drum about the issue. However new players are at disadvantage no matter what sort of DC spin you apply to it. I would rather defeat someone that had the same knowledge as I did; then again I sure there those out here jump for joy when defeat 10 year olds in contests
Whatever happened to the new rulebook? Is it available now?
Gee, I hope you don’t use automagic, order checker or palantir…after all…they produce a distinct advantage for people that can’t program excel or calculate their gold balance with pencil and paper etc etc etc etc.
Yes, experience is valuable in all life’s activities. Be it cabinet making or anything else. Have you noticed almost all CEOs are in their 50s and 60s? No doubt they suffered many slings and arrows enroute.
You can learn from experience in this game. You should learn from experience in this game. But there are other important things also.
One: A willingness to explore the unknown. The people who need things spelled out for them in equisite detail naturally feel disadvantaged. They are unwilling to take risks and unwilling to explore.
Two. Creative thinking. There is a difference in following a blueprint and drawing your own. I have known two first game newbies who finished second in their games. Did experience win that for them or mental flexibility?
i agree with you on the free thinking/ creative thinking aspect of this game. thats what makes it enduring.( frank and i agree, and he spelled everything right too. wanna play a game together frank?)
rox commented on the market. take it to the next level, the only thing better then a market buyout is a thwarting a market buyout. rox, if there is anybody who’s not a number cruncher, its gotta be me. much to my constant downfall.
ed: the use of ruses, distraction, misdirection is a very lost art. thats taking known tools, and creatively kicking the hell out of the opposition.
i’ll take the combat example 1 step further. going into battle with a full clip, without knowing the capacity of a full clip. how many bullets in this gun?
on publishing the game mechanics: you mean not everybody is gonna parade around with naked hi, that armor enhancement is far superior to weapon enhancement. that buying your nation crushing stack of hc 2.1 turns of food is worth the cost in most cases. these are examples of wander and learn, of exploration. the times when evasive movement works, and doesn’t work (kudos to frank there).
everybody should know that “continue efforts” means the camp limit hasn’t been reached, and that you can hold only so many hostages. without that knowledge, fustration, anger and then departure from the game for newer players. its a tight walk, but there’s a difference between mechanic and discovery.
see you guys on the field. a well played defeat is better then a simple rout.
i may not agree with your opinions, but i respect them.
frank,
you started a long time ago, when many guys were newbie. its almost like a toddler learning to walk while the olders kids keep pushing you over, without respite. i think everybody relishes a challenge, but not being a punching bag.
i don’t think" i got slapped around, so everybody that follows me should get slapped around" is a solid sales concept, where you are asking people to pay to get slapped around.
1650 is nearly 20 years old? playability is whats ensured it surival.
