A lot is being bandied about what is in the book and what isn't. What
would be the basis for assassin's in the ME books? Burglars, spies,
saboteurs (with armies) and kidnappers are easy, but assassin's?
Kevin
A lot is being bandied about what is in the book and what isn't. What
would be the basis for assassin's in the ME books? Burglars, spies,
saboteurs (with armies) and kidnappers are easy, but assassin's?Kevin
RD: Good point Kev. To the best of my knowledge, Tolkien doesn't mention
assassins or kidnappers once. Tolkien does however mention agents and I
don't think he would have a problem with the idea that the DS might send
assassins after FP enemies. What sticks in my throat is that you can have a
whole company of assassins descend on a capital city and wipe out the entire
ruling class at a stroke. That is ridiculous!
I also have great difficulty visualizing how an agent could kidnap and CARRY
OFF an enemy character from a city or from the middle of an army encampment
without being detected.
Richard.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] I have a question
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The Middle Earth answer I always received was that an
agent has a group working with them. Or, if you
prefer, a band of thugs. I always accepted that
answer as the "company line" (no offense Clint). It
never made me happy and in fact made my personnal
dislike of the "agent" even larger. AND, makes the
idea of going undetected even more obsurd. Unless,
you wish to go with the idea that they are all so
great in their stature that they just walk up to the
target while everyone is watching and stab them in the
gut rather than in the back! 
JCC
···
--- richard devereux <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] I have a question>
>
> A lot is being bandied about what is in the book
and what isn't. What
> would be the basis for assassin's in the ME books?
Burglars, spies,
> saboteurs (with armies) and kidnappers are easy,
but assassin's?
>
> KevinRD: Good point Kev. To the best of my knowledge,
Tolkien doesn't mention
assassins or kidnappers once. Tolkien does however
mention agents and I
don't think he would have a problem with the idea
that the DS might send
assassins after FP enemies. What sticks in my
throat is that you can have a
whole company of assassins descend on a capital city
and wipe out the entire
ruling class at a stroke. That is ridiculous!I also have great difficulty visualizing how an
agent could kidnap and CARRY
OFF an enemy character from a city or from the
middle of an army encampment
without being detected.
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> I also have great difficulty visualizing how an
> agent could kidnap and CARRY
> OFF an enemy character from a city or from the
> middle of an army encampment
> without being detected.The Middle Earth answer I always received was that an
agent has a group working with them. Or, if you
prefer, a band of thugs. I always accepted that
answer as the "company line" (no offense Clint).
None taken. Note this is a game, there are 101 bits that are not
realistic, eg in a period of 10 weeks you can build a non-existent camp
into a City - seems pretty far-fetched to me. Bill and Pete created a very
good game that works very well, hence you guys are playing it.... 
BUT
it's that, what we run is a game and not a realistic interpretation of any
world, never mind the fantasy world of Tolkien. It's close as B/P could
make it and have a viable game that appealed to the audience that they were
working for. However, there's justification for most parts of the game in
some manner, agents could be working with the local peoples (eg in Bree the
shadowy figures) and then finding the opportunity to get our hero drunk,
and removed from the premises into the back of a coach and carried
off. That's a kidnap...
I understand that some parts of the unrealty grate more than others though
but there's no way that this game could be made realistic without major
changes such that the game would not be recognisable. Would that actually
make the game better? I doubt it.
Clint
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> > I also have great difficulty visualizing how an
> > agent could kidnap and CARRY
> > OFF an enemy character from a city or from the
> > middle of an army encampment
> > without being detected.
>
>The Middle Earth answer I always received was that an
>agent has a group working with them. Or, if you
>prefer, a band of thugs. I always accepted that
>answer as the "company line" (no offense Clint).None taken. Note this is a game, there are 101 bits that are not
realistic, eg in a period of 10 weeks you can build a non-existent camp
into a City - seems pretty far-fetched to me. Bill and Pete created a
very
good game that works very well, hence you guys are playing it....
it's that, what we run is a game and not a realistic interpretation of any
world, never mind the fantasy world of Tolkien. It's close as B/P could
make it and have a viable game that appealed to the audience that they
were
working for. However, there's justification for most parts of the game in
some manner, agents could be working with the local peoples (eg in Bree
the
shadowy figures) and then finding the opportunity to get our hero drunk,
and removed from the premises into the back of a coach and carried
off. That's a kidnap...I understand that some parts of the unrealty grate more than others though
but there's no way that this game could be made realistic without major
changes such that the game would not be recognisable. Would that
actually
make the game better? I doubt it.
Clint
RD: Obviously you can't make the game totally realistic. When we read,
watch or play fantasy we 'willingly suspend disbelief.' However when
something grates badly, I want to see it changed. The fact that you run 'no
assass/kidnap' scenarios tells you that a section of your player base is
unhappy with the assass/kidnap rules as they stand. Personally I wouldn't
go so far as to ban the assass/kidnap orders, but I would like to see rule
changes that do some or all of the following:
1) give more options to counter agent actions
2) strengthen existing counter-agent measures
3) most importantly of all, reduce the potency of agent -companies-. The
fact that a company of assassins can descend on an enemy capital, which in
all likelihood contains an army as well as any militia, and kill or kidnap
every character in sight whilst refusing challenge and evading arrest even
though the garrison know that these assassins are present, 'grates' perhaps
worse than anything else in the game. There is no justification in history,
mythology or common sense, for such gangs. Yes, the game WOULD be better
without them.
As the DS rely heavily on such companies, I appreciate that if any of the
above changes were implemented, the DS would have to be compensated
somewhere else. I don't have a problem with that. For starters, Mannish
males should not be able to kill any Nazgul either in challenge or by
assass: 'No mortal man may slay me!' and before you say Arthedain will name
all female characters, Mannish nations, hell, ALL nations, MUST have at
least 50% male characters. That's not enough on its own to compensate for
the loss of assass/kidnap companies but it's a start!
Must stop now, gotta be up v early,
Richard.
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