KS options

mepbmlist
#1

We’re looking to update these atm so for all you KS players here’s your chance to feedback.

One thought is that we make the set-ups more fluid. When we first created the game we had (for example) the Hithlum as primarily a commander nation, with options on Mages, then a 3rd, unattractive, option as Emissary as well. So one option would to make both the 2nd and 3rd option more attractive by reducing the cost/improving the options/adding new options.

Another option is to look at the options that are never picked and make them more attractive, and the ones that are sometimes picked to improve slightly (mostlty a simple change to costs).

So thoughts welcome on the balance of each nation.

Rob

#2

I don’t have MSexel…

i don’t wan to buy it

is there any option available to view the set-ups, beside that?

Jim

#3

Open Office works and is free. Yes look at the module itself it has all of them in it.

Rulebook and modules
* Rulebooks can be found...
http://www.middleearthgames.com/materials.html
* With modules under...
http://www.middleearthgames.com/modules.html

Rob

···

At 10:22 13/04/17, you wrote:

I don't have MSexel...
i don't wan to buy it
is there any option available to view the set-ups, beside that?
Jim

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#4

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and there's later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.
20k gold
Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I'm wondering what the communities' thoughts are for doing this for 1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the "best team", (however that is defined), but it's clear from some recent games that some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it's freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I'm curious about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old.. .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you're the first nation to join an allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus, 4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus - we could even have it that it's an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

···

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#5

The neutrals are as different as the nature of the teams they are allying with. I’m in a game now where 14FP-11DS gives the DS a good chance, while if we switched just 1 of those noots to make it 13FP-12DS - the FP wouldn’t have a chance at all. Well wait a second, would switching Harad or Rhudaur make that happen…? But that means people and the nations they play aren’t equal…?? Pfft, of course not, that’s just silly - forget I mentioned it.

Obviously, the concern is counting. How about the game ends with Victory to the first Allegiance who gets 13 members? That’s “Fair”.

Otherwise, I guess Harad will never get the bonus for successfully issuing 175 First - with their crappy commanders. Corsairs will just 175 on Turn 1 with 3 guys and take the cool toys every time.

But, for the record - what a neutral really wants is to have their Relations changed. That’s a lot of orders (See Harad reference above…). How about giving them the power of the FA Kingdoms to go right up to 21 characters? If the first nation goes Free, I can see some vaguely offensive references to Elven … er, well, either way, there’s no DS equivalent that I’m aware of - unless we get REAL inappropriate.

I’ll take whiskey. A good rye would be fine - you should have my mailing address on file? If the bottle is delivered broken and empty, can I get a free 175 to go the other way?

Brad

···

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing
allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and
there’s later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for
changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.
20k gold
Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I’m wondering what the communities’ thoughts are for doing this for
1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split
of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the “best team”,
(however that is defined), but it’s clear from some recent games that
some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to
one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it’s freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I’m curious
about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old… .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you’re the first nation to join an
allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,
4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to
characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -
we could even have it that it’s an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#6

I’ve seen 4/1 sides loose

So is it really needed to “fix” this issue in the older versions?

Whit

···

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing
allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and
there’s later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for
changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.
20k gold
Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I’m wondering what the communities’ thoughts are for doing this for
1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split
of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the “best team”,
(however that is defined), but it’s clear from some recent games that
some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to
one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it’s freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I’m curious
about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old… .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you’re the first nation to join an
allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,
4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to
characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -
we could even have it that it’s an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#7

Yes but they mostly win.. .:slight_smile: And games generally just end when it gets to that stage. It's a rare event when players play through when they're up against it that badly.

Rob

···

At 03:51 15/04/17, you wrote:

I've seen 4/1 sides loose

So is it really needed to "fix" this issue in the older versions?

WhitÂ

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Brad Brunet ><mailto:brad.brunet@gmail.com>brad.brunet@gmail.com >[mepbmlist] ><<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Â

The neutrals are as different as the nature of the teams they are allying with. I'm in a game now where 14FP-11DS gives the DS a good chance, while if we switched just 1 of those noots to make it 13FP-12DS - the FP wouldn't have a chance at all. Well wait a second, would switching Harad or Rhudaur make that happen..? But that means people and the nations they play aren't equal....?? Pfft, of course not, that's just silly - forget I mentioned it.

Obviously, the concern is counting. How about the game ends with Victory to the first Allegiance who gets 13 members? That's "Fair".

Otherwise, I guess Harad will never get the bonus for successfully issuing 175 First - with their crappy commanders. Corsairs will just 175 on Turn 1 with 3 guys and take the cool toys every time.

But, for the record - what a neutral really wants is to have their Relations changed. That's a lot of orders (See Harad reference above...). How about giving them the power of the FA Kingdoms to go right up to 21 characters? If the first nation goes Free, I can see some vaguely offensive references to Elven .... er, well, either way, there's no DS equivalent that I'm aware of - unless we get REAL inappropriate.

I'll take whiskey. A good rye would be fine - you should have my mailing address on file? If the bottle is delivered broken and empty, can I get a free 175 to go the other way?

Brad

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd >me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] ><<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Â

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing
allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and
there's later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for
changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.
20k gold
Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I'm wondering what the communities' thoughts are for doing this for
1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split
of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the "best team",
(however that is defined), but it's clear from some recent games that
some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to
one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it's freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I'm curious
about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old.. .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you're the first nation to join an
allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,
4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to
characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -
we could even have it that it's an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <<http://www.middleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com><mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial <tel:+44%2029%202091%203359>011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#8

The nature of the game has evolved due to communication technology. All was well and good in the Play by Mail era when the individual player’s access to information was so limited. Now, everyone knows more than enough to make these judgement calls and say “Why bother?”. 10 turn games ruin it for everyone.

Maybe the neutrals are too powerful? Or, at least the 2 big southern dudes. If the 12 in a 13-12 include Corsairs and Harad together - all else being equal, that side has the advantage over the simple math.

“All else being equal” is the key. It rarely is. You have newbies, poor communicators, frequent SS’ers, and super-Vet’s who stomp and scream as a result of the incompetence of the former. In the Indie games that have neutrals, rarely is it 10v10 to start.

I’m in the 1 weeker that is having an issue with this right now.14FP - 10 DS with Corsairs feeling obligated to make that 11. As Harad, I believe joining the FP v a Corsairs DS will tilt the game less to the FP than it would to the DS if Corsairs and I joined them. But that’s 14-11 and everyone is yelling about the Math.

I’m not sure that rewards based on who goes first would work - as players would go too soon just to get the reward. Then would the last neutral drop because his c40 failed the 175 4 turns in a row and he missed out?

The only real way to trend the 5 Choice nations towards game balance would be to build incentives into the 175 based on the actual in-game situation. That would require constant game monitoring to be truly fair.

Maybe VP’s are a place to start - I could see a variety of more complicated parameters added to the algorithm:

Every turn result sent to Neutrals includes a message about how the 2 Allegiances are doing - and some randomized reward is based on successfully issuing the 175 ONLY for the side that is Behind that turn. Do not allow more than one 175 per turn.

The problem with this is - Neutrals are already working with, sharing files, and on Yahoogroups of teams well ahead of the 175. This problem might be corrected by not allowing 180’s or 185’s v Allied nations until the 175 is successful. This would have to be mitigated by automatic relations changes upon the 175 - not all 10 (11?12?) but say, the 5 closest and most immediate neighbours of the opposing allegiance?

Fair that up by not allowing Allied nations to 180/185 Neutral nations either. And start all Neutrals as Disliked to each other - which will be adjusted automatically as the 175’s play out.

And hey, one of those rewards for choosing the “right” side, based on the company provided algorithmic values, would be to add extra relation changes, along with the skill boosts or whatever else might be included.

So on Turn 3 the game has tilted to the FP, Rhudaur and Corsairs declare Evil - Rhudaur, as randomly chosen, goes first and succeeds. Next turn, Rhudaur is a DS, the calculation takes his nation into account. Corsairs turn results show he failed the 175 and the DS are now in the lead…

If the disparity between the 2 teams is greater, boost the odds of the 175 succeeding the right way (and vice-versa). Which is completely incongruent with the real national interests of the neutrals, but we’re dealing with game playability - the same game that let’s characters move 12 hexes and unfed cavalry 1, etc…

Meanwhile, let’s set up another 1 weeker and get around all that by simply making in a pre-aligned 12v12 standard grudge set up and off we go…?

Brad

···

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:30 AM, ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes but they mostly win… .:slight_smile: And games
generally just end when it gets to that
stage. It’s a rare event when players play
through when they’re up against it that badly.

Rob

At 03:51 15/04/17, you wrote:

I’ve seen 4/1 sides loose

So is it really needed to “fix” this issue in the older versions?

WhitÂ

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Brad Brunet
mailto:brad.brunet@gmail.combrad.brunet@gmail.com

[mepbmlist]

<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Â

The neutrals are as different as the nature of

the teams they are allying with. I’m in a game

now where 14FP-11DS gives the DS a good chance,

while if we switched just 1 of those noots to

make it 13FP-12DS - the FP wouldn’t have a

chance at all. Well wait a second, would

switching Harad or Rhudaur make that

happen…? But that means people and the

nations they play aren’t equal…?? Pfft, of

course not, that’s just silly - forget I mentioned it.

Obviously, the concern is counting. How about

the game ends with Victory to the first

Allegiance who gets 13 members? That’s “Fair”.

Otherwise, I guess Harad will never get the

bonus for successfully issuing 175 First - with

their crappy commanders. Corsairs will just

175 on Turn 1 with 3 guys and take the cool toys every time.

But, for the record - what a neutral really

wants is to have their Relations

changed. That’s a lot of orders (See Harad

reference above…). How about giving them the

power of the FA Kingdoms to go right up to 21

characters? If the first nation goes Free, I

can see some vaguely offensive references to

Elven … er, well, either way, there’s no DS

equivalent that I’m aware of - unless we get REAL inappropriate.

I’ll take whiskey. A good rye would be fine -

you should have my mailing address on file? If

the bottle is delivered broken and empty, can I

get a free 175 to go the other way?

Brad

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd

me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]

<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Â

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing

allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and

there’s later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for

changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.

20k gold

Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I’m wondering what the communities’ thoughts are for doing this for

1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split

of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the “best team”,

(however that is defined), but it’s clear from some recent games that

some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to

one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it’s freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I’m curious

about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old… .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you’re the first nation to join an

allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,

4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to

characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -

we could even have it that it’s an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website:

<<http://www.middleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email:

mailto:me@middleearthgames.commailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)

UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)

(Dial tel:+44%2029%202091%203359011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)

UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)

(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#9

I think that giving a bonus to join early will make it worse for the cases that the player joins a game with a strong bias to join a side.
It will transform: “I may join the Free at some point if they sell their side well” to “I better join on turn 1 to get my bonus”.

I bet some players will even plan their strategies considering the bonus.

Furthermore, the players waiting 5 or 10 turns to balance the game joining the “weaker” side are now being penalized.

I think here a stick can work better than a carrot.

I suggest that there are no bonuses for joining late but penalties for joining the same side.

Make the neutrals not have access to any relationship orders (no 180/185) until they declare.

Add that all aggressive (and helping/support orders) orders cannot be executed against a nation with a neutral relationship. Helping/supporting order would include all transfers (artifacts, cities, products) and some more. Maybe the neutral can still suffer from aggressive action but not cause them.

For the 3rd nation onward, the penalties kick in. Losing size on 3 PCs, losing skills on one char, loyalty drops, army disbanding 30% of the troops. and so on, you get the idea.

···

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:24 PM, ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing

allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and

there’s later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for

changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.

20k gold

Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I’m wondering what the communities’ thoughts are for doing this for

1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split

of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the “best team”,

(however that is defined), but it’s clear from some recent games that

some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to

one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it’s freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I’m curious

about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old… .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you’re the first nation to join an

allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,

4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to

characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -

we could even have it that it’s an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)

UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)

(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone

To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com

Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/)

<*> Your email settings:

Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/join](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/join)

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

mepbmlist-digest@yahoogroups.com

mepbmlist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:

[https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/](https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/)
#10

In fact, in such a “reward choosing the weaker side” system - I would see the rewards increasing, so the last neutral to declare - for the “correct” side - would get more than the first one.

Brad

···

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Brad Brunet brad.brunet@gmail.com wrote:

The nature of the game has evolved due to communication technology. All was well and good in the Play by Mail era when the individual player’s access to information was so limited. Now, everyone knows more than enough to make these judgement calls and say “Why bother?”. 10 turn games ruin it for everyone.

Maybe the neutrals are too powerful? Or, at least the 2 big southern dudes. If the 12 in a 13-12 include Corsairs and Harad together - all else being equal, that side has the advantage over the simple math.

“All else being equal” is the key. It rarely is. You have newbies, poor communicators, frequent SS’ers, and super-Vet’s who stomp and scream as a result of the incompetence of the former. In the Indie games that have neutrals, rarely is it 10v10 to start.

I’m in the 1 weeker that is having an issue with this right now.14FP - 10 DS with Corsairs feeling obligated to make that 11. As Harad, I believe joining the FP v a Corsairs DS will tilt the game less to the FP than it would to the DS if Corsairs and I joined them. But that’s 14-11 and everyone is yelling about the Math.

I’m not sure that rewards based on who goes first would work - as players would go too soon just to get the reward. Then would the last neutral drop because his c40 failed the 175 4 turns in a row and he missed out?

The only real way to trend the 5 Choice nations towards game balance would be to build incentives into the 175 based on the actual in-game situation. That would require constant game monitoring to be truly fair.

Maybe VP’s are a place to start - I could see a variety of more complicated parameters added to the algorithm:

Every turn result sent to Neutrals includes a message about how the 2 Allegiances are doing - and some randomized reward is based on successfully issuing the 175 ONLY for the side that is Behind that turn. Do not allow more than one 175 per turn.

The problem with this is - Neutrals are already working with, sharing files, and on Yahoogroups of teams well ahead of the 175. This problem might be corrected by not allowing 180’s or 185’s v Allied nations until the 175 is successful. This would have to be mitigated by automatic relations changes upon the 175 - not all 10 (11?12?) but say, the 5 closest and most immediate neighbours of the opposing allegiance?

Fair that up by not allowing Allied nations to 180/185 Neutral nations either. And start all Neutrals as Disliked to each other - which will be adjusted automatically as the 175’s play out.

And hey, one of those rewards for choosing the “right” side, based on the company provided algorithmic values, would be to add extra relation changes, along with the skill boosts or whatever else might be included.

So on Turn 3 the game has tilted to the FP, Rhudaur and Corsairs declare Evil - Rhudaur, as randomly chosen, goes first and succeeds. Next turn, Rhudaur is a DS, the calculation takes his nation into account. Corsairs turn results show he failed the 175 and the DS are now in the lead…

If the disparity between the 2 teams is greater, boost the odds of the 175 succeeding the right way (and vice-versa). Which is completely incongruent with the real national interests of the neutrals, but we’re dealing with game playability - the same game that let’s characters move 12 hexes and unfed cavalry 1, etc…

Meanwhile, let’s set up another 1 weeker and get around all that by simply making in a pre-aligned 12v12 standard grudge set up and off we go…?

Brad

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:30 AM, ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes but they mostly win… .:slight_smile: And games
generally just end when it gets to that
stage. It’s a rare event when players play
through when they’re up against it that badly.

Rob

At 03:51 15/04/17, you wrote:

I’ve seen 4/1 sides loose

So is it really needed to “fix” this issue in the older versions?

WhitÂ

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Brad Brunet
mailto:brad.brunet@gmail.combrad.brunet@gmail.com

[mepbmlist]

<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Â

The neutrals are as different as the nature of

the teams they are allying with. I’m in a game

now where 14FP-11DS gives the DS a good chance,

while if we switched just 1 of those noots to

make it 13FP-12DS - the FP wouldn’t have a

chance at all. Well wait a second, would

switching Harad or Rhudaur make that

happen…? But that means people and the

nations they play aren’t equal…?? Pfft, of

course not, that’s just silly - forget I mentioned it.

Obviously, the concern is counting. How about

the game ends with Victory to the first

Allegiance who gets 13 members? That’s “Fair”.

Otherwise, I guess Harad will never get the

bonus for successfully issuing 175 First - with

their crappy commanders. Corsairs will just

175 on Turn 1 with 3 guys and take the cool toys every time.

But, for the record - what a neutral really

wants is to have their Relations

changed. That’s a lot of orders (See Harad

reference above…). How about giving them the

power of the FA Kingdoms to go right up to 21

characters? If the first nation goes Free, I

can see some vaguely offensive references to

Elven … er, well, either way, there’s no DS

equivalent that I’m aware of - unless we get REAL inappropriate.

I’ll take whiskey. A good rye would be fine -

you should have my mailing address on file? If

the bottle is delivered broken and empty, can I

get a free 175 to go the other way?

Brad

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd

me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]

<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Â

For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing

allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and

there’s later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for

changing to different allegiances).

Champion for your highest rank character.

20k gold

Upgrade a pc to a MT.

I’m wondering what the communities’ thoughts are for doing this for

1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split

of neutrals that can be game destroying.

I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the “best team”,

(however that is defined), but it’s clear from some recent games that

some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to

one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.

So it’s freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I’m curious

about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old… .:slight_smile:

So, for example, 1650 might be if you’re the first nation to join an

allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,

4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to

characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -

we could even have it that it’s an encounter where you choose x from y things.

Thoughts welcome as always.

Rob

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website:

<<http://www.middleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email:

mailto:me@middleearthgames.commailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)

UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)

(Dial tel:+44%2029%202091%203359011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)

UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)

(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#11

I'm not sure that rewards based on who goes first would work - as players would go too soon just to get the reward. Then would the last neutral drop because his c40 failed the 175 4 turns in a row and he missed out?

I suspect not - it doesn;t happen in KS

Every turn result sent to Neutrals includes a message about how the 2 Allegiances are doing - and some randomized reward is based on successfully issuing the 175 ONLY for the side that is Behind that turn. Do not allow more than one 175 per turn.

So on Turn 3 the game has tilted to the FP, Rhudaur and Corsairs declare Evil - Rhudaur, as randomly chosen, goes first and succeeds.

Both get the reward on that turn.

If the disparity between the 2 teams is greater, boost the odds of the 175 succeeding the right way (and vice-versa). Which is completely incongruent with the real national interests of the neutrals, but we're dealing with game playability - the same game that let's characters move 12 hexes and unfed cavalry 1, etc...

175 orders aren't the issue - players can commit to a side and allocate resources appropriately I feel.

Meanwhile, let's set up another 1 weeker and get around all that by simply making in a pre-aligned 12v12 standard grudge set up and off we go..?

That would be upto the players.

Rob

···

Brad

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:30 AM, ME Games Ltd >me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] ><<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Â

Yes but they mostly win.. .:slight_smile: And games
generally just end when it gets to that
stage. It's a rare event when players play
through when they're up against it that badly.

Rob

At 03:51 15/04/17, you wrote:

>I've seen 4/1 sides loose
>
>So is it really needed to "fix" this issue in the older versions?
>
>WhitÂ
>
>On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Brad Brunet
><mailto:brad.brunet@gmail.com><mailto:brad.brun et@gmail.com>brad.brunet@gmail.com
>[mepbmlist]
><<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com><mailto:mepb mlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>Â
>
>The neutrals are as different as the nature of
>the teams they are allying with. I'm in a game
>now where 14FP-11DS gives the DS a good chance,
>while if we switched just 1 of those noots to
>make it 13FP-12DS - the FP wouldn't have a
>chance at all. Well wait a second, would
>switching Harad or Rhudaur make that
>happen..? But that means people and the
>nations they play aren't equal....?? Pfft, of
>course not, that's just silly - forget I mentioned it.
>
>Obviously, the concern is counting. How about
>the game ends with Victory to the first
>Allegiance who gets 13 members? That's "Fair".
>
>Otherwise, I guess Harad will never get the
>bonus for successfully issuing 175 First - with
>their crappy commanders. Corsairs will just
>175 on Turn 1 with 3 guys and take the cool toys every time.
>
>But, for the record - what a neutral really
>wants is to have their Relations
>changed. That's a lot of orders (See Harad
>reference above...). How about giving them the
>power of the FA Kingdoms to go right up to 21
>characters? If the first nation goes Free, I
>can see some vaguely offensive references to
>Elven .... er, well, either way, there's no DS
>equivalent that I'm aware of - unless we get REAL inappropriate.
>
>I'll take whiskey. A good rye would be fine -
>you should have my mailing address on file? If
>the bottle is delivered broken and empty, can I
>get a free 175 to go the other way?
>
>Brad
>
>On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:24 PM, ME Games Ltd > >me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist] > ><<mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com><mailto:mepb > mlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>Â
>
>For those of not aware in KS you get an early bonus for changing
>allegiance, first player to change to an allegiance gains this (and
>there's later bonuses for changing later or the same bonus for
>changing to different allegiances).
>
>Champion for your highest rank character.
>20k gold
>Upgrade a pc to a MT.
>
>I'm wondering what the communities' thoughts are for doing this for
>1650, 2950 and FAS even to balance games to stop the 5:0, 4:1 split
>of neutrals that can be game destroying.
>
>I understand the arguments that neutrals often join the "best team",
>(however that is defined), but it's clear from some recent games that
>some players even before joining have a game plan in place to turn to
>one allegiance straight off the bat, regardless of these other factors.
>
>So it's freedom of choice vs game balance/good game that I'm curious
>about here, and I am very much aware that this is a topic many years old.. .:slight_smile:
>
>So, for example, 1650 might be if you're the first nation to join an
>allegiance you gain XX bonus, second gain YY bonus, 3rd minor bonus,
>4/5th nothing. *Bonus would include improvement of ranks to
>characters, PC improvements, gold in your economy, PC loyalty bonus -
>we could even have it that it's an encounter where you choose x from y things.
>
>Thoughts welcome as always.
>
>Rob
>
>----------
>
>Middle Earth Games Ltd
>
>Website:
><<<http://www.middleearthgames.com>http://www.m iddleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
>
>Email:
><mailto:me@middleearthgames.com><mailto:me@midd leearthgames.com><mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
>
>Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
>
>Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
>UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
>(Dial <tel:+44%2029%202091%203359><tel:+44%2029%202091%203359>011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
>

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <<http://www.middleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com><mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial <tel:+44%2029%202091%203359>011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)

#12

I think that giving a bonus to join early will make it worse for the cases that the player joins a game with a strong bias to join a side.
It will transform: "I may join the Free at some point if they sell their side well" to "I better join on turn 1 to get my bonus".
I bet some players will even plan their strategies considering the bonus.

Well yes but aren't most players already pre-disposed to a side when they set-up?

Furthermore, the players waiting 5 or 10 turns to balance the game joining the "weaker" side are now being penalized.

Yes fair point - maybe it needs to be balanced so that if you're "balancing " the game you get a bigger bonus.

I suggest that there are no bonuses for joining late but penalties for joining the same side.

Um not a fan of this - players won't like it.

···

At 16:28 15/04/17, you wrote:

----------

Middle Earth Games Ltd

Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com

Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com

Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK

Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)