Last Alliance: nation changes

[Richard_John_Devereu]

> RD: Now you know how the 1650 Northmen feel.

never played the northmen. But I do hear horror
stories of terrible fights and war zones from that
side of the game board. Actually if I wanted to play
the northmen, I would play the northmen (but that's
just me).

> There
> is no way they can
> protect all their defenceless pops from attack and
> they can't see half of
> them either. They have to make decisions which ones
> to defend and which
> ones to abandon to luck.

Can they use armies to intercept the incoming enemies
?

And you are talking of pop centres in plural. I'm
taking pop centre in the singular (more of this below
...)
>
> Why should Long Rider - or any other nation - get
> special treatment?

I must look up my defination of special treatment. I
was thinking 'improvment' when I mentioned moving the
pop centre one hex.

I remember in WoTR G1 that the new armies had no food
in them. I've also suggested that in WoTR G2 that
these armies get food. What you call special
treatment, I would call 'tweaks', and the aim is to
improve player enjoyment.

RD: I call moving a pop to give a particular nation an advantage, or to
remove a disadvantage, special treatment. There are plenty of nations which
have vulnerable pops - why should LoR be different?

Food for the new armies is another matter. This was an oversight, of course
they should have started with the appropriate amount of food, and this
should be put right in WotR 2.

Ditto with the pop centres starting off with food if
they produce none. But as I've no idea why this is so
in normal games, i'm not asking for it.

RD: No, I've no idea why this happens either, but I am aware that it does.
I've no plans to ask for any more food for new pops. Nobody playing WotR1
has bothered mentioning this!

>In
> WotR 4121 is a town in mountains, so already it
> can't be attacked by hostile
> armies unless they have food.

So ??? 4121 is on the outer ridge line. In a lot
of the middle earth games that i've played, this outer
line is avoided by DS since its so easy for the free
to send down small cav armies and burn out any DS pop
centre.

RD: Well, it depends how each side plays, doesn't it? Last time I played Dk
lieutenants I hired army on 3621 (since Miruimor started there anyway) and
sent it out to burn the FP pops in Rhovanion/Rhun. It didn't get many
before it was wiped out by the Dwarves, but it sure kept the FP too busy to
attack 3621! Where was the FP cav? You'll have to ask them that!

I could ask why the l/r (whose capital is at 3329
-thats 12 hexes away) plonks down a town with no
defenses at 4121 when they have a neutral m/t 4 hexes
away. The nearest free m/t with armies is also 4
hexes, and the free capital is at 4013 (thats 8
hexes). I suppose orcs are meant to be stupid, but
thats real stupid.

RD: Nah nah nah. Orcs not stupid. Orcs build 4121 as an outpost. Gotta
start somewhere.

The place is just asking to be taken over. However it
is a brillant place to be used as an attack on the
free (since its is a town, and its near the free pop
centres), thats why I would have liked it moved away
one hex. My preferred option would be to include it on
no one map.

RD: It IS a brilliant place from which to attack the FP. That's the whole
idea of putting it there. It gives the FP and LoR something to fight over.
It's MEANT to be provocative. In WotR1, LoR has launched armies from 4121
with mixed success. The last such army has just died, and FP have hit 4121
with agents and emis, but so far (t19) it is still in LoR hands. Just
suppose the FP DO take 4121 - it will become a magnet for DS agents. Every
character the FP put in there will be assassd and the place will be robbed
blind every turn. Why would DS want to retake it?

The smart free would thus have more reason to capture
it (since they can't tell when the DS start cranking
out HC armies). This forces the DS to start cranking
out HI, and doing up the defenses. I wouldn't call
free/neutral/ds fighing over a critical town in
no-mans land special treatment, but a tweak to improve
game enjoyment.

>You want a recon map?
> Stick some emis in
> there, pump up the loyalty, make it a Major town!

not worth it. Its too easy to fall to the free (as its
4 hexes from the nearest free and neutral armies). The
only hope I had to keep the place was to move in
armies from below, ie the free see an army pop up and
would think that i've just created 300 HI. But in fact
i've just jumped up 2000 HI. That's bound to upset
their counting skills But I left the game before I
was able to do that.

>
> This game wasn't meant to be easy.

While i'm looking at the dictionary, i'll skip 'easy',
and instead look for 'fun'.

> Disappointed?

actually yes. But rather than complain, I would rather
put in positive improvements. I won't be playing the
l/r in WoTR game 2, but that doesn't mean I don't want
them to have a better game than whoever is currently
playing the l/r (and I've no idea who is playing the
l/r).

RD: Me! I started off with 2 nations, handed LoR to a player who joined
late, and took it back when he dropped.

How many character changes did the l/r get ? None.
How many extra armies did the l/r get ? None.
How many pop centre changes did the l/r get ? One -
this town, and for the reasons above, i think they got
ripped off.

RD: Nah, for them the game just got..... interesting.

They did get the extra 15K that every DS got. But for
the l/r, its just another 2950 game with beefed up
allies.

> Consider it a challenge!

I didn't think that WoTR was designed as another
challenge. I thought it was meant to improve the pop
centre base so that the game would more likely
represent the LoRT book (unless my memory is playing
tricks on me).

RD: Correct. The pop base was beefed up. Unless I'm mistaken, you object
to the siting of just one of the 'new' pops. Any change to a game design is
bound to offer new challenges.

> It IS only a game!

which is meant to mean ??? Since it is meant to be a
game, what's the problem of moving the only pop centre
that the l/r get, a single hex left or right ?

Left moves it onto a DS map (so they can see if the
free capture the place and then use it to get into
mordor). Right moves it off everyone's map (and thus
allows some mystery).

RD: Come ON, if all players know what pops are where at game start, what the
hell difference does it make if if a single pop is one map or the other or
neither?

If Harlequin decided to shift the LoR town at 4121 one hex e or w in WotR2,
I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I don't see why this should be done
for the sole benefit of LoR.

finally, I think WoRT is a great game. While not
perfect (how much was food selling at its peak ? And
were the free able to use the extra pop centres they
got ?), I think small improvements in WoRT Game 2 can
result in a better game.

thanks
m

RD: Agree with your last para. I just don't think you've made a case that
moving the LoR town at 4121 improves the GAME. It might improve things for
LoR, but not the game as a whole.

Regards,

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance: nation changes

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[Din]

RD: I call moving a pop to give a particular nation
an advantage, or to
remove a disadvantage, special treatment. There are
plenty of nations which
have vulnerable pops - why should LoR be different?

the question lies in why was the new pop centre placed
where it was, ie plains above and below, no defenses,
within four hexes of the free and neutral armies, no
defending army, and not on any ds map. I assumed you
had your reasons.

Actually I don't know how it went in WoTR G1. I felt
it would fall to the free very easily, but i've made
other predictions that were completly wrong.

I think moving it one hex to be off both the free and
dark map would improve its strategic value (for
reasons already listed).

The main disadvantage of moving it one hex would be if
this made it 13 hexes from its capital. Moving a
character 13 hexes is a pain.

And I didn't spend as much time thinking about the
other pop centres than I did for the l/r (I was done
for the l/r, but dropped before the t1 order went in).

If there are other pop centres whose strategic value
could be improved by small changes, I would change
them as well. You have proven that pop centre sizes
and locations are not set in stone for 1650 and 2950
games. If the game could be improved by changing the
initial data, then I think the changes should be done.

My question is 'would these changes make for a better
game or not'.

question such as 'given the prices of G1, should the
DS be given 15K each in WoTR G2' is a harder question
to answer, so I didn't ask it.

I've no plans to ask for any more food for new pops.
Nobody playing WotR1
has bothered mentioning this!

yeah. its a strange rule that i've got no explanation
for. Doing work to follow a strange and illogical rule
isn't on my list of things to do either.

>
> I could ask why the l/r (whose capital is at 3329
> -thats 12 hexes away) plonks down a town with no
> defenses at 4121 when they have a neutral m/t 4
hexes
> away. The nearest free m/t with armies is also 4
> hexes, and the free capital is at 4013 (thats 8
> hexes). I suppose orcs are meant to be stupid, but
> thats real stupid.

RD: Nah nah nah. Orcs not stupid. Orcs build 4121
as an outpost. Gotta
start somewhere.

maybe start an outpost that the free can't see them ?
Of where the DS can keep an eye on the outpost.

RD: It IS a brilliant place from which to attack the
FP

I agree completely.

That's the whole
idea of putting it there. It gives the FP and LoR
something to fight over.
It's MEANT to be provocative. In WotR1, LoR has
launched armies from 4121
with mixed success. The last such army has just
died, and FP have hit 4121
with agents and emis, but so far (t19) it is still
in LoR hands.

very strange. If I played free, I would have given
some thought about taking it out before it was used
against them (and that's not - capture it straight
away). Once DS armies started popping up, then the
free had to complete idiots not to do anything about
it, ie 'oh lookie, the l/r with a fondness for cav is
doing up an army at that town that is just 4 hexes
from our pop centres, lets leave them alone and see
how many troops they will throw at us'.

Just
suppose the FP DO take 4121 - it will become a
magnet for DS agents.

Its off any ds map. How many towns off DS maps get
visited in 2950 ?

Every
character the FP put in there will be assassd and
the place will be robbed
blind every turn.

The DS are going to 930 every turn on a village/town
they can't see ? If I was ds, then unless I had good
reason that the free had an army (ie a recon picked up
an army), I would never authorise moving in a agent
company.

I would prefer to use my agents on known targets.

Why would DS want to retake it?

Assuming the free put it down to a village, its rather
pointless turning it back to a DS camp. Its a poor
staging post (200 HC a turn isn't as good as 400/500
HC from a m/t or city), and its not a good resupply
point (as the armies need food to get up into the
mountains).

If it remained a town, then I would think about
retaking it. 300 HC a turn could hurt (especially if
you did it for a few turns

> > Disappointed?

RD: Me! I started off with 2 nations, handed LoR to
a player who joined
late, and took it back when he dropped.

So who is winning ? And how effective has curses been
?

>
RD: Correct. The pop base was beefed up. Unless
I'm mistaken, you object
to the siting of just one of the 'new' pops.

yeah. The l/r was the only nation I spend many hours
thinking about the changes.

> > >
RD: Come ON, if all players know what pops are where
at game start, what the
hell difference does it make if if a single pop is
one map or the other or
neither?

If its on a map, the enemy can see when armies pop up
on it. Since we both agree this is a brillant army
attacking position, armies would be useful. Seeing 300
enemy troops pop up 4 hexes away from your capital is
just asking to be bashed.

You should be aware of the joy of building up pop
centres off a nation's map, and then using them to
raise up armies to attack an enemy.

If Harlequin decided to shift the LoR town at 4121
one hex e or w in WotR2,
I wouldn't have a problem with it.

actually I think its your call, not harly. WoTR is run
on Harly's computer. But you were the one who put in
the many hours researching and designing the game.

But I don't see
why this should be done
for the sole benefit of LoR.

I'm fine with that. I've said 'i think this change
would improve this strategic play', but if the
designer says 'nope', then its a no.

> >
RD: Agree with your last para. I just don't think
you've made a case that
moving the LoR town at 4121 improves the GAME.

moving a town one hex is unlikely to have a big effect
on the game (as the game has a lot of pop centres). I
disagree that moving it off the free map would help
the l/r.

moving it ONTO a DS map would help the l/r - no
question on that.

But moving it OFF the free map would mean that the l/r
could raise an army without being seen by the free.
The free SHOULD then attack the pop centre in order to
remove any doubt of it being used as an attacking pop
centre.

While the undefended town remains empty of DS armies,
I would give it a low priority in my list of targets.

It
might improve things for
LoR, but not the game as a whole.

i

Regards,

Richard.
>
>
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[Richard_John_Devereu]

>
> RD: I call moving a pop to give a particular nation
> an advantage, or to
> remove a disadvantage, special treatment. There are
> plenty of nations which
> have vulnerable pops - why should LoR be different?

the question lies in why was the new pop centre placed
where it was, ie plains above and below, no defenses,
within four hexes of the free and neutral armies, no
defending army, and not on any ds map. I assumed you
had your reasons.

RD: I did. LoR needed a new town, and 4121 seemed a logical strategic place
to site it. It would have been stupid to site it in plains when there were
mountain hexes available. The idea was that if LoR hired an army here, he
could either raid the Freeps to the north, or help defend Mordor's back
door. I was aware it was vulnerable to Freep attack - everything depended
on who seized the intiative.

Actually I don't know how it went in WoTR G1. I felt
it would fall to the free very easily, but i've made
other predictions that were completly wrong.

I think moving it one hex to be off both the free and
dark map would improve its strategic value (for
reasons already listed).

The main disadvantage of moving it one hex would be if
this made it 13 hexes from its capital. Moving a
character 13 hexes is a pain.

RD: Moving the town 1 hex east WOULD make it 13 hexes from the capital.

And I didn't spend as much time thinking about the
other pop centres than I did for the l/r (I was done
for the l/r, but dropped before the t1 order went in).

If there are other pop centres whose strategic value
could be improved by small changes, I would change
them as well. You have proven that pop centre sizes
and locations are not set in stone for 1650 and 2950
games. If the game could be improved by changing the
initial data, then I think the changes should be done.

My question is 'would these changes make for a better
game or not'.

RD: Well, the door is open for you to suggest such changes in future games.
Yes, Harlequin can do them, and will do so PROVIDED both teams agree. So if
you want to change the location of a pop, you must be prepared to agree that
the opposition can do the same.

question such as 'given the prices of G1, should the
DS be given 15K each in WoTR G2' is a harder question
to answer, so I didn't ask it.

> I've no plans to ask for any more food for new pops.
> Nobody playing WotR1
> has bothered mentioning this!

yeah. its a strange rule that i've got no explanation
for. Doing work to follow a strange and illogical rule
isn't on my list of things to do either.

> >
> > I could ask why the l/r (whose capital is at 3329
> > -thats 12 hexes away) plonks down a town with no
> > defenses at 4121 when they have a neutral m/t 4
> hexes
> > away. The nearest free m/t with armies is also 4
> > hexes, and the free capital is at 4013 (thats 8
> > hexes). I suppose orcs are meant to be stupid, but
> > thats real stupid.
>
> RD: Nah nah nah. Orcs not stupid. Orcs build 4121
> as an outpost. Gotta
> start somewhere.

maybe start an outpost that the free can't see them ?
Of where the DS can keep an eye on the outpost.

> RD: It IS a brilliant place from which to attack the
> FP

I agree completely.

> That's the whole
> idea of putting it there. It gives the FP and LoR
> something to fight over.
> It's MEANT to be provocative. In WotR1, LoR has
> launched armies from 4121
> with mixed success. The last such army has just
> died, and FP have hit 4121
> with agents and emis, but so far (t19) it is still
> in LoR hands.

very strange. If I played free, I would have given
some thought about taking it out before it was used
against them (and that's not - capture it straight
away). Once DS armies started popping up, then the
free had to complete idiots not to do anything about
it, ie 'oh lookie, the l/r with a fondness for cav is
doing up an army at that town that is just 4 hexes
from our pop centres, lets leave them alone and see
how many troops they will throw at us'.

> Just
> suppose the FP DO take 4121 - it will become a
> magnet for DS agents.

Its off any ds map. How many towns off DS maps get
visited in 2950 ?

> Every
> character the FP put in there will be assassd and
> the place will be robbed
> blind every turn.

The DS are going to 930 every turn on a village/town
they can't see ? If I was ds, then unless I had good
reason that the free had an army (ie a recon picked up
an army), I would never authorise moving in a agent
company.

I would prefer to use my agents on known targets.

RD: I almost answered this, but then I realised I might give something away
if the opposition in WotR read this.

> Why would DS want to retake it?

Assuming the free put it down to a village, its rather
pointless turning it back to a DS camp. Its a poor
staging post (200 HC a turn isn't as good as 400/500
HC from a m/t or city), and its not a good resupply
point (as the armies need food to get up into the
mountains).

If it remained a town, then I would think about
retaking it. 300 HC a turn could hurt (especially if
you did it for a few turns
> > > Disappointed?

> RD: Me! I started off with 2 nations, handed LoR to
> a player who joined
> late, and took it back when he dropped.

So who is winning ? And how effective has curses been
?

RD: We are of course. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

> >
> RD: Correct. The pop base was beefed up. Unless
> I'm mistaken, you object
> to the siting of just one of the 'new' pops.

yeah. The l/r was the only nation I spend many hours
thinking about the changes.

> > > >
> RD: Come ON, if all players know what pops are where
> at game start, what the
> hell difference does it make if if a single pop is
> one map or the other or
> neither?

If its on a map, the enemy can see when armies pop up
on it. Since we both agree this is a brillant army
attacking position, armies would be useful. Seeing 300
enemy troops pop up 4 hexes away from your capital is
just asking to be bashed.

You should be aware of the joy of building up pop
centres off a nation's map, and then using them to
raise up armies to attack an enemy.

>
> If Harlequin decided to shift the LoR town at 4121
> one hex e or w in WotR2,
> I wouldn't have a problem with it.

actually I think its your call, not harly. WoTR is run
on Harly's computer. But you were the one who put in
the many hours researching and designing the game.

> But I don't see
> why this should be done
> for the sole benefit of LoR.

I'm fine with that. I've said 'i think this change
would improve this strategic play', but if the
designer says 'nope', then its a no.

> > >
> RD: Agree with your last para. I just don't think
> you've made a case that
> moving the LoR town at 4121 improves the GAME.

moving a town one hex is unlikely to have a big effect
on the game (as the game has a lot of pop centres). I
disagree that moving it off the free map would help
the l/r.

moving it ONTO a DS map would help the l/r - no
question on that.

But moving it OFF the free map would mean that the l/r
could raise an army without being seen by the free.
The free SHOULD then attack the pop centre in order to
remove any doubt of it being used as an attacking pop
centre.

RD: I've just checked the 2950 map, and both 4121 AND 4221 ARE on the FP
map! So moving the town 1 hex east accomplishes nothing except to make it
13 hexes from LoR capital instead of 12, so LoR loses a vital turn before he
can get a com there to Hire army.

If you want to move the town at 4121 onto the DS map, you have to move it at
least 2 hexes, which takes away all its strategic value.

I REALLY don't want to spend any more time discussing a solitary town. If
you're going to play WotR2 and you feel strongly about it, put the idea to
your team-mates, and if they agree, to Harlequin. But as I said, you may
well find that the opposition will want a change in exchange for the one you
want. Be prepared to negotiate!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance: nation changes

While the undefended town remains empty of DS armies,
I would give it a low priority in my list of targets.

> It
> might improve things for
> LoR, but not the game as a whole.

i
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Din]

RD: I almost answered this, but then I realised I
might give something away
if the opposition in WotR read this.
>

I thought your agents have taken up permanent homes on
the dun capital ?

thanks
m

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