Maia and Istari

mepbmlist
#1

MAIA - and "experience" rating that ties in the quality of player
you play with and the length of the game, winning increases your
rating more, but losing still increases your "experience".

The main problem I see is dealing with inactive nations (dropped,
eliminated, etc). Are they included in the total team average
at the end of the game, or is it simply active nations? I don't
believe this was mentioned yet. Also, while they didn't finish
the game, dropped/eliminated players DID gain - Experience too,
no?

I would propose a turn by turn calculation. Simply run the numbers
every turn and the final number is simply the sum of each turns
total, divided by the total number of turns. When players come
and go, the calculation will yeild different results each turn.

Also, each player who does not complete the total game (either
leaves or enters) gains their turn-by-turn increase depending
on how many turns THEY played.

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

Factor in a modifier based on percentage of the game actually
played? The Eo eliminated on turn 5 of a 25 turn game should
get his 5 turns worth of experience, but should he be penalized
a little compared to the Woodman who gets eliminated on turn 23,
who should be penalized slightly against the nations who complete
100% of the game? Or no penalties, I'm not very adamant here...

ISTARI - an "individual" rating based solely on VP's and position
at game end.

Forget the position and base the score using a formula like below:

New Rating = Original Rating + (VP's - Nation Average VP's)

Simple, no standard deviation garbage, etc. Say a Woodman (on the
winning team) ends with 1750 VP's! Wow! The Woodman average is
easily well under 1000, he'll gain a whop of points!

Ah so what. Those who really care can be impressed, it'll all
average itself out over time anyway, so let a little wild-west
fluctuations happen.

Will the Istari rating affect individual play moreso than VP's
already do? I highly doubt it, even yesterday I received a diplo
that revolved around where I can place if I declare for a certain
side! Argh!

Best Solution? Reward the other rating leaders (I'm big on the
Valar.. :wink: and ignore this one. Oh publish it, but make no
mention of it, no quarterly reports or special anything - it's
there, it exists, that's all.

Brad Brunet

···

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#2

I would propose a turn by turn calculation. Simply run the numbers
every turn and the final number is simply the sum of each turns
total, divided by the total number of turns. When players come
and go, the calculation will yeild different results each turn.

URRGHH - nightmare for us. We can't offer that I am afraid.

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

Factor in a modifier based on percentage of the game actually
played? The Eo eliminated on turn 5 of a 25 turn game should
get his 5 turns worth of experience, but should he be penalized
a little compared to the Woodman who gets eliminated on turn 23,
who should be penalized slightly against the nations who complete
100% of the game? Or no penalties, I'm not very adamant here...

*** You've mentioned dropped and Eliminated as being synonymous. I would not be so sure of this.

ISTARI - an "individual" rating based solely on VP's and position
at game end.

Forget the position and base the score using a formula like below:

New Rating = Original Rating + (VP's - Nation Average VP's)

Simple, no standard deviation garbage, etc. Say a Woodman (on the
winning team) ends with 1750 VP's! Wow! The Woodman average is
easily well under 1000, he'll gain a whop of points!

*** Now this I do like! I would still like to have a factor for position though.

Ah so what. Those who really care can be impressed, it'll all
average itself out over time anyway, so let a little wild-west
fluctuations happen.

Best Solution? Reward the other rating leaders (I'm big on the
Valar.. :wink: and ignore this one. Oh publish it, but make no
mention of it, no quarterly reports or special anything - it's
there, it exists, that's all.

*** Me to.
Clint

#3

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for rock-solid reasons out of the game.

Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
> Problem - Should drops be penalized?
>
> RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
> rock-solid reasons out of the game.
>

The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.

I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only make people mad who he rules against.

Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the player dropped "well" or "badly"?

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#5

<<Jason Bennett wrote:>>
<<Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if
the player dropped "well" or "badly"?>>

Great idea. I'm not certain it's feasable from a recordkeeping/workload
standpoint for MeGames, but it leaves the decision in the hands of those
it affects. This might actually have an impact on bad drops, as you know
your former teammates will rate you as a "bad drop" unless you do a
graceful handoff before you go.

Admittedly, players who drop due to an emergency might be unfairly
penalized, but it only takes a few seconds to fire off an E-Mail to
former teammates letting them know you have to drop. There aren't many
emergencies that don't leave you at least a few seconds to keep you from
leaving allies high and dry.

Mike Mulka

#6

Pandora would be confused...

The only way to be fair to is apply ONE rule to
EVERYONE, period. Make the rule, put it in those
blasted House Rules, and apply it whilst you spend
all the time saved having us do your job's for you
(D.S. would be proud.. :wink: working on your other
projects.

If the player is not running a nation at the end of the
game, the player should not be included in any of the game's
tallying. Fair for him, unfair for her, mean here, oops
he didn't deserve it there (who get's to judge...???)

Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods. Otherwise,
everyone who was active in the game, for however long
(1 turn pick up, oops, drop again, see my case study
of game 131...) should get full marks (MEGames is on
record saying they simply cannot do it turn by turn for
every game.) The "last player to run a nation" is only
acceptable if he/she was running it at game end (see
my case study for 131 again...).

All or nothing, no exceptions because "exceptions" by
definition are unfair to all.

Brad Brunet

···

--- Urzahil <Urzahil@orions.net> wrote:

<<Jason Bennett wrote:>>
<<Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide
if
the player dropped "well" or "badly"?>>

Great idea. I'm not certain it's feasable from a
recordkeeping/workload
standpoint for MeGames, but it leaves the decision in the hands of
those
it affects. This might actually have an impact on bad drops, as you
know
your former teammates will rate you as a "bad drop" unless you do a
graceful handoff before you go.

Admittedly, players who drop due to an emergency might be unfairly
penalized, but it only takes a few seconds to fire off an E-Mail to
former teammates letting them know you have to drop. There aren't
many
emergencies that don't leave you at least a few seconds to keep you
from
leaving allies high and dry.

Mike Mulka

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#7

<<Player wrote:>>
<<If the player is not running a nation at the end of the game, the
player should not be included in any of the game's tallying. Fair for
him, unfair for her, mean here, oops he didn't deserve it there (who
get's to judge...???) Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods.>>

The problem with this is that if a side is losing, the losing players
can simply drop and their player rating won't be negatively affected.
(You'd never get a minus rating.) I'd agree with your proposal only if
dropped players can't INCREASE their rating, but anyone who started the
game and didn't finish could have their rating DECREASED if their side
lost, just as if they had stayed in the whole time and ended up on the
losing side. After all, we don't want to actually reward player drops.

Mike Mulka

#8

But then they could be on the "not get penalised" group. I agree that then we would have to make judgement calls - which we strenuously try to avoid to remain impartial.

Clint

···

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for rock-solid reasons out of the game.

Richard.

#9

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
  > Problem - Should drops be penalized?
  >
  > RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
  > rock-solid reasons out of the game.
  >

  The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off
  their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for
  crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical
  nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.

  I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good
  circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only
  make people mad who he rules against.

  Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the
  player dropped "well" or "badly"?

                    jason
  RD: If Harle penalizes a dropper, Harle may well lose that guy as a player. Certainly some droppers are just irresponsible, but others may have a family emergency besides which playing ME and even contacting Harle suddenly do not seem important. For the same reason they don't contact their team-mates. Who are they to judge? Therefore my argument is, give droppers the benefit of the doubt.

  If you think a guy has dropped "badly", don't play on the same team next time. Simple.

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jason Bennett
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

  --
  Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
  E pur si muove!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

<<Player wrote:>>
  <<If the player is not running a nation at the end of the game, the
  player should not be included in any of the game's tallying. Fair for
  him, unfair for her, mean here, oops he didn't deserve it there (who
  get's to judge...???) Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
  WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods.>>

  The problem with this is that if a side is losing, the losing players
  can simply drop and their player rating won't be negatively affected.
  (You'd never get a minus rating.) I'd agree with your proposal only if
  dropped players can't INCREASE their rating, but anyone who started the
  game and didn't finish could have their rating DECREASED if their side
  lost, just as if they had stayed in the whole time and ended up on the
  losing side. After all, we don't want to actually reward player drops.

  Mike Mulka
  RD: I agree with the principle of the same rule for all, but NOT that everyone who drops or is eliminated can't have a vote.

  I have already argued that the guy who drops MAY have a rock-solid reason (maybe not, but who's to tell?).

  If the members of a team fight to the best of their ability but only two of them are left when they finally decide to call it a day, what about the 8 guys who were eliminated? They did their bit towards making the game and therefore they SHOULD be entitled to a vote just before they go down with their sinking ship.

  Richard.

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Urzahil
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:33 PM
  Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

#11

<<Richard DEVEREUX wrote:>>
<<If the members of a team fight to the best of their ability but only
two of them are left when they finally decide to call it a day, what
about the 8 guys who were eliminated? They did their bit towards making
the game and therefore they SHOULD be entitled to a vote just before
they go down with their sinking ship.>>

I agree. That's why I said DROPPED players. In a previous posting, I
specifically acknowledged that someone who is eliminated shouldn't be
penalized in any way, but players who drop frivolously are the scourge
of MePBM. They should, at the very least, not be rewarded. (If they quit
the game for good because of this, it might be bad for MeGames business,
but will probably help the game's fun level in the long run.)

I have yet to see a VIABLE position go empty for more than a turn.
Someone on the team is either willing to pick it up themselves, or know
a friend who will take it. So if a player wants out, it is usually quick
and easy to hand the position off to someone instead of simply dropping.
Even if they don't want to wait and want out NOW, they can simply let
their teammates know they're dropping, and the team can deal with the
situation before any damage is done.

Determining a position's viability is still an issue, but if someone
drops and the team doesn't want to pick the position up, it's probably
not a viable position.

Mike Mulka

#12

As I stated earlier i once dropped a pos i should not have. However if my
rating said games played-16 dropped before turn 15 -1 vs someone with a
rating games 12 drops 8. Everyone encounters problems from time to time but
not 8 out of 12. This is the value of listing drops.

Steve

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jason Bennett
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

  Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
  > Problem - Should drops be penalized?
  >
  > RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
  > rock-solid reasons out of the game.
  >

  The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off
  their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for
  crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical
  nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.

  I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good
  circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only
  make people mad who he rules against.

  Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the
  player dropped "well" or "badly"?

                    jason
  RD: If Harle penalizes a dropper, Harle may well lose that guy as a

player. Certainly some droppers are just irresponsible, but others may have
a family emergency besides which playing ME and even contacting Harle
suddenly do not seem important. For the same reason they don't contact
their team-mates. Who are they to judge? Therefore my argument is, give
droppers the benefit of the doubt.

  If you think a guy has dropped "badly", don't play on the same team next

time. Simple.

  Richard.

  --
  Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
  E pur si muove!

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#13

As I stated earlier i once dropped a pos i should not have. However if my
rating said games played-16 dropped before turn 15 -1 vs someone with a
rating games 12 drops 8. Everyone encounters problems from time to time but
not 8 out of 12. This is the value of listing drops.

** Okay I am thinking that listing number of games is a good thing. Harder to do the "dropped" nations though - still can't see an easy way around that.

Clint