Map 1650

mepbmlist
#21

Game 29

Good point Richard - any quicky opinions on the game? What about the

other

variants such as 12vs12 or the 10vs10 games that we have out there? Are
their strong, a nice change or indiffferent (or stink?)?

It would be nice to get some ideas on what has worked and what hasn't so

far

with these.

Clint

RD: Hi Clint,

I had a day off today, so this afternoon I went thru my emails - 86 of 'em.
Having worked thru them I went back online to send the replies and got
another 84 in the inbox. So I'm sure you will understand when I say I
haven't a clue what 'good point' I made!

Thoughts on the two 'variant' games I'm in, 29 & 33: both these games give
extra pops to both sides. I'm not sure how Mike Sankey decided who got what
in 33 (1650, no neutrals, all pops and some armies divided between FP and
DS). In 29 (2950 + extra pops to bring it up to 1650 level) I gave LOTS of
extra pops to FP and a smaller number to DS and neutrals.

What these two games have in common is that it seems even a modest increase
in pops for the DS enables them to run away with the game. The DS already
have the advantages of better characters (especially agents and mages) and
dragons. If you give them a decent economy as well, they are laughing.

It doesn't matter how many extra pops you give the FP, troop recruitment is
restricted by the number of CHARACTERS with com skill, so giving DS even a
few extra pops enables them to recruit as many troops as the FP.

The original 1650 game was, by luck or judgement, very carefully balanced:
the FP had a bigger economy and more troops. Basicly the FP strategy was,
eliminate one or more of the DS nations before turn 10 using overwhelming
military force, then we have a chance of winning the character game. The
DS, with a miserable economy, could not afford to recruit to capacity but
they knew, if they could keep all their nations alive till turn 10, agents
and dragons would slowly swing the game their way.

Of course the above is a simplification: a good team will always beat a poor
team, and if things are otherwise more or less balanced, the neutrals can
tip the scales one way or the other.

It is early days yet with the variants of games 29 & 33, but it seems that
just a few extra pops to the DS -regardless of how many extra to the FP -
give the DS the advantage. But isn't that how it ought to be - if the good
guys win, they do so against overwhelming odds?

Regards,

Richard.

#22

> RD: OK you asked for it so here it comes (in the nicest possible way,
> nothing personal):

That was the nicest way of being shot down in flames that I've ever

experienced!

:slight_smile:

> I started in 1650 and loved it. I played it for 4 years, and many

players

> had played a lot longer than me. Given the HUGE amount of player input
> about how the game could be improved, I and many others were GRIEVOUSLY
> disappointed with the 2950 scenario. Yes you get the characters

mentioned

> in Tolkien's LoR but do you get the armies? Do you hell.

Yes, but you would have been equally disappointed at the 1650 scenario if

the

2950 had been the golden standard, and 1650 had come afterwards.

RD: No, disagree totally. Having read ALL the books, not just Hobbit/LoR, I
would have been grievously disappointed with 2950 if that had been the
original game, because I would have been looking for 6000 RoR cav and DS
armies in proportion.

>
> In 2950 GSI reduced the economic base AND gave each nation a smaller
> starting base. What did they give players that they had not had before?

A

> few more characters and artifacts!

In my opinion, getting your money's worth isn't about having more armies,

more

powerful chars and larger tax base, it's a well balanced game which allows
players to build their nation after their own preferences and play in

their own

style.

RD: Yes, it's all that, but the bottom line is GSI flogged us a smaller game
for the same money. Intentioanlly or not, that's a rip-off.

>
> Cynical players say this is GSI trying to make money.

> I thought that 2950 could be a good game IF the armies were as Tolkien
> described them, specifically, the Rohirrim should be able to mobilise

6000

> cav for the battle of the Pelennor fields, and EACH DS army should be

10,000

> or thereabouts.

Rider should be more powerful because they're one of the major powers in

the

book. As it is, they're quite disappointing. I don't agree that Sauron

should

have 100 000 trolls to throw at Gondor, but perhaps 50 000 LI/MA from the
beginning. There should be a greater difference between FP and DS. Gondor
soldiers should be well fed, equipped in steel and well trained, while the

orcs

should outnumber them, but carrying wooden clubs and leather.

RD: I absolutely agree with you here. The point has been made before that
man for man (or man for orc) the FP were far superior fighting troops.
Trolls were so rare that they never formed military units bigger than a
squad. Ideally, ME should reflect this by restricting each nation to
appropriate troop types: only men should have access to all types, elves
should be 50/50 archers/li, dwarves hi only, and the DS mostly ma but huge
numbers of 'em. Unfortunately Harlequin can't change stuff like this, so we
were stuck with simply altering the pops and army sizes.

> I felt so strongly about his, I purchased the relevant stats from

Harlequin,

> and designed a 2950 scenario more in keeping with the NUMBERS Tolkien

wrote

> about, designated War Of the Ring (WotR). To Harlequin's credit, they
> launched the first game (29) on this basis.

I couldn't join sorry, but I've heard it's good. You can never tell if

it's well

balanced though, before a few games are finished. Hope there will be more!

Pontus

RD: Watch this space!

Regards,

Richard.

#23

Whilst i take Richard`s points on board, as an opponent [about to kick his
green scaly butt!], in game 29; if the DS have another advantage from extra
pop.centres it has yet to materialise. I do think the extra pop.centres
have added a boost to all economies that make the WOTR variant the most
enjoyable 2950 game i`ve been in so far. As of turn nine i have around 7000
troops in the field and this surplus of goods has meant that nations are
able to go out and recruit at a rate that isn`t possible in the normal
version. i know ALL the Freep nations are economically comfortable right
now [admittedly before the onset of winter] and this as i said has allowed
us to take the initiative militarily. Perhaps later in the game, the
advantage will show itself, but so far it is our opinion that things are
going the way of the Free!

···

######################################-
Doc Holliday: It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.
######################################
CYA, don`t wanna be ya,
David Murray.

#24

Whilst i take Richard`s points on board, as an opponent [about to kick his
green scaly butt!], in game 29; if the DS have another advantage from

extra

pop.centres it has yet to materialise. I do think the extra pop.centres
have added a boost to all economies that make the WOTR variant the most
enjoyable 2950 game i`ve been in so far. As of turn nine i have around

7000

troops in the field and this surplus of goods has meant that nations are
able to go out and recruit at a rate that isn`t possible in the normal
version. i know ALL the Freep nations are economically comfortable right
now [admittedly before the onset of winter] and this as i said has allowed
us to take the initiative militarily. Perhaps later in the game, the
advantage will show itself, but so far it is our opinion that things are
going the way of the Free!

David Murray.

RD: the advantage to the DS has ALREADY materialised insofar as all the DS
have healthy economies and are able to recruit to capacity. This does NOT
happen in a normal game - at least, not if the Freeps know their business
and screw the market prices down to the floor.

I'm pleased to hear that you have 7000 troops - that's the size of army
which Tolkien talks about, and one of the things I set out to achieve.

I'm pleased too that at Minas Tirith, things are going more or less
according to the book. Several DS armies laid siege to the place, but
neither South Gondor nor the Rohirrim showed up, and consequently the city
fell to the Dark side! Great play by your team I must say. I'm mightily
amused therefore that you think you are winning! However the most important
thing is that you are enjoying the game. Thanks for your input!

Regards,

Richard.

···

From: "David Murray" <dmurray@lib.south-ayrshire.gov.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Game 29

#25

RD: the advantage to the DS has ALREADY materialised insofar as all the DS
have healthy economies and are able to recruit to capacity. This does NOT
happen in a normal game - at least, not if the Freeps know their business
and screw the market prices down to the floor.

I'm pleased to hear that you have 7000 troops - that's the size of army
which Tolkien talks about, and one of the things I set out to achieve.

I'm pleased too that at Minas Tirith, things are going more or less
according to the book. Several DS armies laid siege to the place, but
neither South Gondor nor the Rohirrim showed up, and consequently the city
fell to the Dark side! Great play by your team I must say. I'm mightily
amused therefore that you think you are winning! However the most important
thing is that you are enjoying the game. Thanks for your input!

Again i`d like to compliment you on your adaptation of the 2950 game, i
really would advise all players to play this variant if they get the
opportunity, as it marries the "feel" of the setting of the WOTR to a
faster-paced gameplay.
  Concerning g29 itself, the Free are of course concerned with the longterm
effects that a Mordor-with-money might have on the balance of things. At
the moment however we feel that things are going in our favour. The North
is almost free of Dark Servants; the WK has been hounded to near
destruction and should head back to his hideyhole in Barad-Dur. Goblin-Gate
is ours. The Dragon Lord is on the run. Khamul himself has resorted to
picking pockets for a living. Mirkwood is the province of the Free.
Rhovanion is a secure zone , where the Long Rider has not been seen for 5
turns since his expeditionary force was routed! Whilst you pour poison in
the ears of the weaker neutrals , enlightened nations are willing to join
our side against your cowardly attacks. We concede that it will be a long
fight, with setbacks no doubt, but we are in a strong position to take on
all Dark Servant efforts.

···

######################################-
Doc Holliday: It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.
######################################
CYA, don`t wanna be ya,
David Murray.

#26

>RD: the advantage to the DS has ALREADY materialised insofar as all the

DS

>have healthy economies and are able to recruit to capacity. This does

NOT

>happen in a normal game - at least, not if the Freeps know their business
>and screw the market prices down to the floor.
>
>I'm pleased to hear that you have 7000 troops - that's the size of army
>which Tolkien talks about, and one of the things I set out to achieve.
>
>I'm pleased too that at Minas Tirith, things are going more or less
>according to the book. Several DS armies laid siege to the place, but
>neither South Gondor nor the Rohirrim showed up, and consequently the

city

>fell to the Dark side! Great play by your team I must say. I'm mightily
>amused therefore that you think you are winning! However the most

important

>thing is that you are enjoying the game. Thanks for your input!

Again i`d like to compliment you on your adaptation of the 2950 game, i
really would advise all players to play this variant if they get the
opportunity, as it marries the "feel" of the setting of the WOTR to a
faster-paced gameplay.
Concerning g29 itself, the Free are of course concerned with the longterm
effects that a Mordor-with-money might have on the balance of things. At
the moment however we feel that things are going in our favour. The North
is almost free of Dark Servants; the WK has been hounded to near
destruction and should head back to his hideyhole in Barad-Dur.

Goblin-Gate

is ours. The Dragon Lord is on the run. Khamul himself has resorted to
picking pockets for a living. Mirkwood is the province of the Free.
Rhovanion is a secure zone , where the Long Rider has not been seen for 5
turns since his expeditionary force was routed! Whilst you pour poison in
the ears of the weaker neutrals , enlightened nations are willing to join
our side against your cowardly attacks. We concede that it will be a long
fight, with setbacks no doubt, but we are in a strong position to take on
all Dark Servant efforts.
######################################-
Doc Holliday: It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.
######################################
CYA, don`t wanna be ya,
David Murray.

RD: Good stuff David. Looks like this is gonna be a good game!

Regards,

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Murray" <dmurray@lib.south-ayrshire.gov.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Game 29

#27

I would like one now!!!!
how quickly can you get it to me?
ps excellent game

···

-----Original Message-----
From: SAS/ALLSORTS [mailto:allsorts@compuserve.com]
Sent: 17 October 2000 16:58
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] Map 1650

Would players like to see a colour 1650 map with the PCs marked on it with
owner names and Name of PC (starting only)?

How much would you be prepared to pay? Same size as the normal map? No
key.

Clint

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#28

RD: I absolutely agree with you here. The point has been made before that
man for man (or man for orc) the FP were far superior fighting troops.
Trolls were so rare that they never formed military units bigger than a
squad. Ideally, ME should reflect this by restricting each nation to
appropriate troop types: only men should have access to all types, elves
should be 50/50 archers/li, dwarves hi only, and the DS mostly ma but huge
numbers of 'em. Unfortunately Harlequin can't change stuff like this, so

we

were stuck with simply altering the pops and army sizes.

The problem with this is that the game starts to get more complex. Adding
in bits and pieces that you have to "know" to be able to play brings the
complexity up and then starts to put players off. Note I am not saying this
is not a good idea but rather that it adds to the complexity.

Clint

#29

Not created yet. Still getting a feel and waiting for a quote to come back
from the printers. it'll take us a little work to get it all sorted as well
to my satisfaction. I can bring something along to the pubmeet (b/w) if you
want though.

Clint

···

I would like one now!!!!
how quickly can you get it to me?
ps excellent game

-----Original Message-----
From: SAS/ALLSORTS [mailto:allsorts@compuserve.com]
Sent: 17 October 2000 16:58
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] Map 1650

Would players like to see a colour 1650 map with the PCs marked on it with
owner names and Name of PC (starting only)?

How much would you be prepared to pay? Same size as the normal map? No
key.

Clint

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#30

Where and when is Pubmeet? Is it a PBM con?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Harlequin Games <pbm@harlequingames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Map 1650

Not created yet. Still getting a feel and waiting for a quote to come

back

from the printers. it'll take us a little work to get it all sorted as

well

to my satisfaction. I can bring something along to the pubmeet (b/w) if

you

want though.

Clint

> I would like one now!!!!
> how quickly can you get it to me?
> ps excellent game
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SAS/ALLSORTS [mailto:allsorts@compuserve.com]
> Sent: 17 October 2000 16:58
> To: mepbmlist
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Map 1650
>
>
> Would players like to see a colour 1650 map with the PCs marked on it

with

> owner names and Name of PC (starting only)?
>
> How much would you be prepared to pay? Same size as the normal map? No
> key.
>
> Clint
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#31

> RD: I absolutely agree with you here. The point has been made before that
> man for man (or man for orc) the FP were far superior fighting troops.
> Trolls were so rare that they never formed military units bigger than a
> squad. Ideally, ME should reflect this by restricting each nation to
> appropriate troop types: only men should have access to all types, elves
> should be 50/50 archers/li, dwarves hi only, and the DS mostly ma but huge
> numbers of 'em. Unfortunately Harlequin can't change stuff like this, so
we
> were stuck with simply altering the pops and army sizes.

The problem with this is that the game starts to get more complex. Adding
in bits and pieces that you have to "know" to be able to play brings the
complexity up and then starts to put players off. Note I am not saying this
is not a good idea but rather that it adds to the complexity.

Yes, but all DS nations could have special nation abilities that makes it better
for them to recruit MA for example, so they still _could_ create a troll army,
but for a much higher prize. Something like the White Wiz ability but better.

#32

>
> RD: I absolutely agree with you here. The point has been made before

that

> man for man (or man for orc) the FP were far superior fighting troops.
> Trolls were so rare that they never formed military units bigger than a
> squad. Ideally, ME should reflect this by restricting each nation to
> appropriate troop types: only men should have access to all types, elves
> should be 50/50 archers/li, dwarves hi only, and the DS mostly ma but

huge

> numbers of 'em. Unfortunately Harlequin can't change stuff like this,

so

we
> were stuck with simply altering the pops and army sizes.

The problem with this is that the game starts to get more complex. Adding
in bits and pieces that you have to "know" to be able to play brings the
complexity up and then starts to put players off. Note I am not saying

this

is not a good idea but rather that it adds to the complexity.

Clint

RD: I don't want to go too deeply into this because UNLESS Harlequin
actually have the technology (and permission I s'pose!) to make such
changes, the argument becomes academic, BUT:

I do not agree it adds to the complexity. If each 'nation' were restricted
to specific troop types it would actually make life simpler!

What if each nation could only recruit 'troops' ie they could NOT specify
what type? For the DS this should work out as follows. For every 100
troops recruited, they would get 10 trolls (hi) 10 uruk-hai (li) 10 snaga
(ar) + 70 run-of the-mill goblins (ma). If they had mounts + leather
available, they would get 100 wolf-riders (lc) instead. Orcs/goblins should
never be hc.

Elves would get 50/50 archers/li, Dwarves would get 100 hi. Men admittedly
are more complex: Eothraim (assuming mounts/leather were available) should
automatically recruit hc. If there was a shortfall in leather, they would
get lc instead. If there was a shortage of mounts, they'd end up with li.

This would actually make players THINK about how/where they deployed their
resources instead of blindly going hc or hi AND would make for more better
use of tactics, therefore more interesting battles!

This all simple maths so clever people who write computer programs should be
able to do it. But there's no point me going into full detail unless there
is at least a possibility that soemone can make it happen!

Regards,

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harlequin Games" <pbm@harlequingames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Map 1650 (mostly 1650 vs 2950)

#33

Check your turnsheet for full details. Next to Reading train station -
flyer & Firkin pub Sat 3rd/4th (can't recall which is the Saturday - but
it's on the Sat) Nov 1pm onwards.

Clint

···

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----- Original Message -----
From: "nplindsell" <nplindsell@classicfm.net>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Map 1650

Where and when is Pubmeet? Is it a PBM con?

----- Original Message -----
From: Harlequin Games <pbm@harlequingames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Map 1650

> Not created yet. Still getting a feel and waiting for a quote to come
back
> from the printers. it'll take us a little work to get it all sorted as
well
> to my satisfaction. I can bring something along to the pubmeet (b/w) if
you
> want though.
>
> Clint
>
> > I would like one now!!!!
> > how quickly can you get it to me?
> > ps excellent game
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SAS/ALLSORTS [mailto:allsorts@compuserve.com]
> > Sent: 17 October 2000 16:58
> > To: mepbmlist
> > Subject: [mepbmlist] Map 1650
> >
> >
> > Would players like to see a colour 1650 map with the PCs marked on it
with
> > owner names and Name of PC (starting only)?
> >
> > How much would you be prepared to pay? Same size as the normal map?

No

> > key.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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#34

RD: I don't want to go too deeply into this because UNLESS Harlequin
actually have the technology (and permission I s'pose!) to make such
changes, the argument becomes academic, BUT:

Possibly - it's academic anyway.

I do not agree it adds to the complexity. If each 'nation' were

restricted

to specific troop types it would actually make life simpler!

some nice ideas though. I wish.

···

Regards,

Richard.

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