Matey's progress

mepbmlist
#1

Laurence wrote:

<< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each turn, and had
not
notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason for him not to
continue the position. >>

I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question; IMO, I simply
had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the game. The
reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it alone" <
paraphrased from memory as I deleted the email in question>. I took this and
other mailings as a serious threat by the senior player to orchestrate a mass
drop unless I dropped in favour of a player of his choice. My alternatives?
Be bloody-minded and stay in the game - with the likely consequence of being
scapegoated by the DS and 'annoying' the Freep and Neutrals alike. Or chalk
it up to experience and walk away with as much dignity as I could muster.
Tell me? What would you have done if placed in such an intolerable position?

Now, I am an experienced PBMailer, and am somewhat inured to the petty
politic of Power Gamers, but I wonder how a newcomer to our hobby would have
reacted to such bullish activities? IMO, it is highly likely that the
newcomer would have simply 'walked away' from the game and our hobby -
probably never to return.

And it is precisely because of my distasteful experience, that I raised the
question of altruism in an earlier posting. MEPBM is perhaps uniquely
positioned to act as a gateway into the broader hobby of PBM. And, yes, I
accept that there is a conflict between the real world (wanting to win) and
the utopian ideal (wanting to take part merely for the fun of it), but where
should the line between acceptable behaviour and not, be drawn?

And, one final thought upon this thread, surely it is not beyond the wit of
senior gamers, who find that newbies diminish their fun and/or chances to
win, to request that they NOT be placed in games with newbies. Surely that is
not to onerous a responsibility?

Mike Absolom.
  
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Well Mike, I'm really sorry (and I'm sure most others on this list will feel the same) that you had such a bad experience of an early game. Chances are this chap could not have orchestrated a mass drop, unless you'd managed to seriously annoy all of them. Nobody has that much influence. If you want to e-mail me privately, and tell me the name of the player, I'll tell you if he's someone I've come across.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 22:31 11/11/2002, MAbsolom@AOL.com wrote:

Laurence wrote:

<< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each turn, and had
not
notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason for him not to
continue the position. >>

I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question; IMO, I simply
had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the game. The
reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it alone"

#3

Well Mike you have overstated, understated, and straight out lied
when talking of your experience in our game. You did state you
might be dropping at one point then stopped communicating all
together...not that you communicated that much beforehand. If you
would have put forth 1/4 of the amount of you have communicated on
this list towards our game, we'd have done well.

Because of game circumstances, I did indeed ask Mike to hand over
his position. I did this for several reasons:

1. Mike had already stated once he might be dropping
2. Mike had stopped communicating with the team
3. Mike was playing the Cloud Lord and Mordor was being overrun by
Free People armies.

As far as orchestrating a team drop, as a team we were at the point
where we could call it quits and bow to the opposition. We had one
player drop and Mike stating he might drop. This is right after
another player dropped the previous turn. Thus, "If you stay in the
game then you will be playing it alone". This is my vision of Mike
playing several turns alone against the opposition because of being
ignorant that the rest of his team has dropped which would have been
the case. Because this game is going on still, I don't wish to
continue this game specific topic any longer as I've already given
too much information to the opposition.

As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
Clint should do it like this:

Erase the Bree article. :slight_smile:

Have a tier systems.
Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you are
a new player.
Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
Tier 4-These positions should be recommended

If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him take a
tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would listen
to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better for
all!!!!

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:

>Laurence wrote:
>
><< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each

turn, and had

>not
>notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason for

him not to

>continue the position. >>
>
>I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question;

IMO, I simply

>had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the

game. The

>reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it

alone"

Well Mike, I'm really sorry (and I'm sure most others on this list

will

feel the same) that you had such a bad experience of an early
game. Chances are this chap could not have orchestrated a mass

drop,

unless you'd managed to seriously annoy all of them. Nobody has

that much

influence. If you want to e-mail me privately, and tell me the

name of the

···

At 22:31 11/11/2002, MAbsolom@A... wrote:
player, I'll tell you if he's someone I've come across.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

#4

Mike's doing pretty damn good in our game, :slight_smile:

Paul Moreno

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "jmason86" <jmason86@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Matey's progress

Well Mike you have overstated, understated, and straight out lied
when talking of your experience in our game. You did state you
might be dropping at one point then stopped communicating all
together...not that you communicated that much beforehand. If you
would have put forth 1/4 of the amount of you have communicated on
this list towards our game, we'd have done well.

Because of game circumstances, I did indeed ask Mike to hand over
his position. I did this for several reasons:

1. Mike had already stated once he might be dropping
2. Mike had stopped communicating with the team
3. Mike was playing the Cloud Lord and Mordor was being overrun by
Free People armies.

As far as orchestrating a team drop, as a team we were at the point
where we could call it quits and bow to the opposition. We had one
player drop and Mike stating he might drop. This is right after
another player dropped the previous turn. Thus, "If you stay in the
game then you will be playing it alone". This is my vision of Mike
playing several turns alone against the opposition because of being
ignorant that the rest of his team has dropped which would have been
the case. Because this game is going on still, I don't wish to
continue this game specific topic any longer as I've already given
too much information to the opposition.

As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
Clint should do it like this:

Erase the Bree article. :slight_smile:

Have a tier systems.
Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you are
a new player.
Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
Tier 4-These positions should be recommended

If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him take a
tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would listen
to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better for
all!!!!

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:
> At 22:31 11/11/2002, MAbsolom@A... wrote:
> >Laurence wrote:
> >
> ><< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each
turn, and had
> >not
> >notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason for
him not to
> >continue the position. >>
> >
> >I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question;
IMO, I simply
> >had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the
game. The
> >reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it
alone"
>
> Well Mike, I'm really sorry (and I'm sure most others on this list
will
> feel the same) that you had such a bad experience of an early
> game. Chances are this chap could not have orchestrated a mass
drop,
> unless you'd managed to seriously annoy all of them. Nobody has
that much
> influence. If you want to e-mail me privately, and tell me the
name of the
> player, I'll tell you if he's someone I've come across.
>
>
> Laurence G. Tilley
>
> http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#5

Hmmm....my guess is he isn't playing the Cloud Lord, Noldo, or
Eothraim then. Correct?

Mike's doing pretty damn good in our game, :slight_smile:

Paul Moreno

From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Matey's progress

> Well Mike you have overstated, understated, and straight out lied
> when talking of your experience in our game. You did state you
> might be dropping at one point then stopped communicating all
> together...not that you communicated that much beforehand. If

you

> would have put forth 1/4 of the amount of you have communicated

on

> this list towards our game, we'd have done well.
>
> Because of game circumstances, I did indeed ask Mike to hand over
> his position. I did this for several reasons:
>
> 1. Mike had already stated once he might be dropping
> 2. Mike had stopped communicating with the team
> 3. Mike was playing the Cloud Lord and Mordor was being overrun

by

> Free People armies.
>
> As far as orchestrating a team drop, as a team we were at the

point

> where we could call it quits and bow to the opposition. We had

one

> player drop and Mike stating he might drop. This is right after
> another player dropped the previous turn. Thus, "If you stay in

the

> game then you will be playing it alone". This is my vision of

Mike

> playing several turns alone against the opposition because of

being

> ignorant that the rest of his team has dropped which would have

been

> the case. Because this game is going on still, I don't wish to
> continue this game specific topic any longer as I've already

given

> too much information to the opposition.
>
> As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
> Clint should do it like this:
>
> Erase the Bree article. :slight_smile:
>
> Have a tier systems.
> Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
> players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
> first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
> Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you

are

> a new player.
> Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
> Tier 4-These positions should be recommended
>
> If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him

take a

> tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would

listen

> to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better

for

> all!!!!
>
> --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...>

wrote:

> > >Laurence wrote:
> > >
> > ><< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each
> turn, and had
> > >not
> > >notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason

for

> him not to
> > >continue the position. >>
> > >
> > >I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question;
> IMO, I simply
> > >had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the
> game. The
> > >reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it
> alone"
> >
> > Well Mike, I'm really sorry (and I'm sure most others on this

list

> will
> > feel the same) that you had such a bad experience of an early
> > game. Chances are this chap could not have orchestrated a mass
> drop,
> > unless you'd managed to seriously annoy all of them. Nobody

has

> that much
> > influence. If you want to e-mail me privately, and tell me the
> name of the
> > player, I'll tell you if he's someone I've come across.
> >
> >
> > Laurence G. Tilley
> >
> > http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

----- Original Message -----
> > At 22:31 11/11/2002, MAbsolom@A... wrote:
>

#6

Playing Arth., and kicking WK's and Rudy's butt, :slight_smile:

Paul Moreno

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "jmason86" <jmason86@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:54 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Matey's progress

Hmmm....my guess is he isn't playing the Cloud Lord, Noldo, or
Eothraim then. Correct?

> Mike's doing pretty damn good in our game, :slight_smile:
>
> Paul Moreno
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:16 AM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Matey's progress
>
>
> > Well Mike you have overstated, understated, and straight out lied
> > when talking of your experience in our game. You did state you
> > might be dropping at one point then stopped communicating all
> > together...not that you communicated that much beforehand. If
you
> > would have put forth 1/4 of the amount of you have communicated
on
> > this list towards our game, we'd have done well.
> >
> > Because of game circumstances, I did indeed ask Mike to hand over
> > his position. I did this for several reasons:
> >
> > 1. Mike had already stated once he might be dropping
> > 2. Mike had stopped communicating with the team
> > 3. Mike was playing the Cloud Lord and Mordor was being overrun
by
> > Free People armies.
> >
> > As far as orchestrating a team drop, as a team we were at the
point
> > where we could call it quits and bow to the opposition. We had
one
> > player drop and Mike stating he might drop. This is right after
> > another player dropped the previous turn. Thus, "If you stay in
the
> > game then you will be playing it alone". This is my vision of
Mike
> > playing several turns alone against the opposition because of
being
> > ignorant that the rest of his team has dropped which would have
been
> > the case. Because this game is going on still, I don't wish to
> > continue this game specific topic any longer as I've already
given
> > too much information to the opposition.
> >
> > As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
> > Clint should do it like this:
> >
> > Erase the Bree article. :slight_smile:
> >
> > Have a tier systems.
> > Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
> > players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
> > first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
> > Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you
are
> > a new player.
> > Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
> > Tier 4-These positions should be recommended
> >
> > If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him
take a
> > tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would
listen
> > to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better
for
> > all!!!!
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...>
wrote:
> > > At 22:31 11/11/2002, MAbsolom@A... wrote:
> > > >Laurence wrote:
> > > >
> > > ><< <snip> Still doesn't follow. If he put his orders in each
> > turn, and had
> > > >not
> > > >notified them that he was dropping, then there was no reason
for
> > him not to
> > > >continue the position. >>
> > > >
> > > >I am that newbie in question ;-). And to answer your question;
> > IMO, I simply
> > > >had no alternative, despite my express wishes to stay in the
> > game. The
> > > >reason? "If you stay in the game then you will be playing it
> > alone"
> > >
> > > Well Mike, I'm really sorry (and I'm sure most others on this
list
> > will
> > > feel the same) that you had such a bad experience of an early
> > > game. Chances are this chap could not have orchestrated a mass
> > drop,
> > > unless you'd managed to seriously annoy all of them. Nobody
has
> > that much
> > > influence. If you want to e-mail me privately, and tell me the
> > name of the
> > > player, I'll tell you if he's someone I've come across.
> > >
> > >
> > > Laurence G. Tilley
> > >
> > > http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#7

I have to strongly disagree with your remarks about not allowing new
players to play nation 3, the Eothraim. (see bottom of post) I rng
Clint and co when starting my 1st game to enquire what nations were
available, and I was given a brief outline of which nations were
going to be both fun and worthwhile to play. NG was one of those
mentioned as a no-no I recall. Eothraim was mentioned as a good
starter !

My 1st game as Eothraim is still continuing at the moment. I have
held my own throughout the game so far (now in midgame) and killed
7000DS troops in the 1st few turns. Not once has the DS crossed the
road along the 3*16 hexes that runs east-west with an army, despite
trying, and my actions, with the help of others has forced the Drk
Lt's out of the game.

I have had a lot of fun playing the Eothraim and learnt a lot.
Considering its mostly an army nation, not over complicated with lots
of emi's, mages or agents (In normal play) then I consider it a good
grounding in 1650 (If I can do it, anyone can ?)

I had a lot of good advice from an experienced player early on, he is
not so much of a 'known' player, but is none the less wise in MEPBM
matters :wink: and I am very grateful. (so is clint no doubt, knowing I
am now playing 7 positions)

Dave Griffiths

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "jmason86" <jmason86@h...> wrote:

As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
Clint should do it like this:

Have a tier systems.
Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you

are

a new player.
Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
Tier 4-These positions should be recommended

If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him take a
tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would

listen

···

to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better for
all!!!!

#8

I have to strongly disagree with your remarks about not allowing new
  players to play nation 3, the Eothraim. (see bottom of post) I rng
  Clint and co when starting my 1st game to enquire what nations were
  available, and I was given a brief outline of which nations were
  going to be both fun and worthwhile to play. NG was one of those
  mentioned as a no-no I recall. Eothraim was mentioned as a good
  starter !

  My 1st game as Eothraim is still continuing at the moment. I have
  held my own throughout the game so far (now in midgame) and killed
  7000DS troops in the 1st few turns. Not once has the DS crossed the
  road along the 3*16 hexes that runs east-west with an army, despite
  trying, and my actions, with the help of others has forced the Drk
  Lt's out of the game.

  I have had a lot of fun playing the Eothraim and learnt a lot.
  Considering its mostly an army nation, not over complicated with lots
  of emi's, mages or agents (In normal play) then I consider it a good
  grounding in 1650 (If I can do it, anyone can ?)

  I had a lot of good advice from an experienced player early on, he is
  not so much of a 'known' player, but is none the less wise in MEPBM
  matters :wink: and I am very grateful. (so is clint no doubt, knowing I
  am now playing 7 positions)

  Dave Griffiths

  RD: Well Dave, I say very well done to you and your mentor! I consider Eothraim one of the more "difficult" nations to play, because it is easy to get your troops and characters killed early on, or if you don't, it's easy to go bankrupt; and finally it's usually one of the first nations targetted by the DS. As you have come through your baptism of fire successfully I can only repeat - well done!

  I think Harle should grade nations according to perceived difficulty, and advise new players accordingly. However if a newbie wants to play a nation where he's likely to get a good kicking, or insists on a flagship nation, so be it. I would NEVER suggest that a newbie starts with Eothraim, but Dave has just shown that it can be done successfully. So I think veterans and Harle should be VERY careful of forcing our preconceptions on new players. Give them advice by all means, but don't say you can NOT play Cloud lord until you've got ten games under your belt - that's the quickest way to cut off the flow of new players.

  Richard.
  Richard.

  --- In mepbmlist@y..., "jmason86" <jmason86@h...> wrote:

  > As far as the limiting newbies from specific positions, I think
  > Clint should do it like this:
  >

  > Have a tier systems.
  > Tier 1-Keep Cloud Lord, Noldo, and Eothraim out of the hands of
  > players that have never played any games at all. If this is your
  > first game, sorry you can't play these positions no matter what.
  > Tier 2-These positions should be recommended against play if you
  are
  > a new player.
  > Tier 3-These positions should be cautioned against new players
  > Tier 4-These positions should be recommended
  >
  > If the new player thinks he gots what it takes, then let him take a
  > tier 2 position. I'd imagine a majority of new players would
  listen
  > to Clint and company and take the advice making the game better for
  > all!!!!

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: asendaric_uk
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:37 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Matey's progress