ME 2nd Edition

mepbmlist
#1

LT,

  I read your ideas for a 2nd edition and generally agree with most
of your thoughts.I forget who said it but it goes something like "if
you want things to stay the way they are,things are gonna have to
change."
Anyway,here's a few thoughts I've had:

  What about a command order Destroy war machines...
    i.e. your own war machines...rather than split/disband to avoid
         your machines falling into enemy hands i.e. salvage baggage

Yes, sensible. I have adopted this, along with "Destroy Rations" which would serve the same function for food and gold in an army about to face a losing battle.

  What about Weather Spells
   - Flood Ford...same as crossing minor river...except maybe
     3010/3110 impassable(?)...turn of casting duration
   - Alter Climate...affects one hex only...I suppose only hexes
     you "own"...might increase bankruptcies if you allow anywhere...
     change climate one "step" i.e. cold to cool or hot to warm..
     turn of casting duration...thinking mostly of production...not
     sure of effect on battles..maybe caster would have to be in
     the hex/pop (easy)...slightly increase range for (avg/hard).
   - many more possibilities and it is consistent with the "book"..

Not so keen on these. The first is only likely to be used very rarely, if you were thinking of it as something to be used by an army mage in a "Stand and Defend" type situation. If you were thinking of a more permanent effect, then, like your idea for climate spells, it doesn't meet my idea of measured magic - they are God like acts rather than wizardly tinkerings. Also there are some new game system concepts you'd be introducing here - the idea of hexes under control, rather than pops within a hex. Those ideas of territory, are very common to most war games, but their absence in Mepbm is a strength - it's Tolkien's world of peoples living in a wilderness, rather than nation states with borders.

   What about indicating the size of your own armies...if I bump
    into another nations army it says a large/small/huge army
    but does not give an adjective for my army...just numbers..
    i.e. include size adjective for own armies...this would be most
    helpful to neutrals who can't compare turnsheets as readily...

Yes, sensible, and have adopted. There are actually quite a few other simple sensible changes which should be made to the turnsheets - one day I'll learn to write things down when I think of them.. The updated page can be viewed at http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/2nded.htm

Just some thoughts I had,

Regards,

Miles

P.S. Keep up the good work...:).

Thanks for your input.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 08:05 AM 30-04-02, Miles <utterfog@msn.com> wrote:

#2

  What about a command order Destroy war machines...

  > i.e. your own war machines...rather than split/disband to avoid
  > your machines falling into enemy hands i.e. salvage baggage

  Yes, sensible. I have adopted this, along with "Destroy Rations" which
  would serve the same function for food and gold in an army about to face a
  losing battle.
  RD: Why not introduce an order "Destroy baggage" instead of forcing the commander to choose one or the other? Chances are if you set fire to the war machines, the food would go up as well, and vice versa. One order instead of two.

  I disagree -strongly- with the concept of Middle-earth armies carting pay chests of gold coins around with them. I disagree with concept of troops in Middle-earth getting paid in coin, full stop! There are only two types of troops in Tolkien: permanent bodyguards of lords and kings, and levies. These are lifted directly from historical pre-Roman Celtic and Germanic models.

  In both societies, it was the right and duty of every free man to bear arms. Obviously not all men could go fighting all the time. Most of the time, the vast majority were farmers working with crops and/or livestock. The Celtic king's warband, and the viking jarl's huscarls, were the only full-time warriors. They defended their lord, his people and their property, and they also acted as tax-collectors. Taxes however were not collected in money, which was a rarity, but in foodstuffs, clothing and manufactures. Out of these taxes, the lord fed, clothed and equipped his bodyguard. The only other source of income was battle loot, out of which the lord rewarded those who had distinguished themselves.

  The levies were mustered in time of war as opposed to raiding, which was endemic. They brought their own weapons (it was their right and duty to bear arms) and very likely as many supplies as they could carry. A rich lord, ie one who had plenty of food (not gold) stashed away, could keep his army in the field longer. If the campaign was successful, the lord could feed his victorious troops from the captured stores of the enemy. If the campaign was a failure, the surviving levies dispersed and went back to their farms.

  There was no question of either warband or levies receiving a regular wage in coin, for the simple reason there weren't enough coins to go round. Certainly some Celtic kings produced coins, but never enough to form the basis of an economy.

  Translating the above into Middle-earth terms, the starting armies with relatively good training, morale, arms and equipment are the equivelant of warband/huscarls. The huge recruiting drive undertaken by most nations from turn 1 onwards brings in the levies - large numbers but mostly low stats.

  Mercenaries? I challenge you to find the word in any of Tolkien's works. There's no reason why there can't be mercenaries in the game, but their "wages" would be in the form of food, clothing and battle loot, the same as warband.

  Finally on this point, can you imagine Sauron paying his troops? Can you imagine even the hardest troll going up to Sauron and saying, "Boss, can I have my wages?"? I don't think so.

  >
  > What about Weather Spells
  > - Flood Ford...same as crossing minor river...except maybe
  > 3010/3110 impassable(?)...turn of casting duration
  > - Alter Climate...affects one hex only...I suppose only hexes
  > you "own"...might increase bankruptcies if you allow anywhere...
  > change climate one "step" i.e. cold to cool or hot to warm..
  > turn of casting duration...thinking mostly of production...not
  > sure of effect on battles..maybe caster would have to be in
  > the hex/pop (easy)...slightly increase range for (avg/hard).
  > - many more possibilities and it is consistent with the "book"..

  Not so keen on these. The first is only likely to be used very rarely, if
  you were thinking of it as something to be used by an army mage in a "Stand
  and Defend" type situation. If you were thinking of a more permanent
  effect, then, like your idea for climate spells, it doesn't meet my idea of
  measured magic - they are God like acts rather than wizardly
  tinkerings. Also there are some new game system concepts you'd be
  introducing here - the idea of hexes under control, rather than pops within
  a hex. Those ideas of territory, are very common to most war games, but
  their absence in Mepbm is a strength - it's Tolkien's world of peoples
  living in a wilderness, rather than nation states with borders.

  RD: Personally, I really like these spell suggestions. They're not godlike at all. Flood ford is exactly what Elrond did at the Ford of Bruinen when he swept away the nazgul. What is proposed here is not flooding an entire hex and drowning an entire army (Moses at the Red Sea!) but a fairly minor impediment to movement for the easy spell, and a major one for the hard spell. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and a damn sight preferable to the far too numerous and un-Tolkienlike battle spells.

  On the same subject, what about "Cause avalanche" as when cruel Caradhras blocked the company from crossing the mountain pass? This is what I meant by spells with a bit of imagination behind them.

  Alter climate too is good, especially if it's only one step. Every pre-monotheistic religion had its weather/fertility magic. And the game's elven realms always enjoy good weather and production! Alter climate of the hex the mage is in by one step could be easy, alter climate in a neighbouring hex by one step average, alter climate of the hex the mage is in and surrounding hexes (7) hard. Duration should be until the next change of season. Note there is already one weather spell which forces a change in tactics: Summon Storms.

  Magic should be subtle and indirect. Magic is working with natural forces to bring about a desired change. It is NOT confrontational, in-yer-face Chill Bolts and Fireballs. For me, that's where the willing suspension of disbelief breaks down.

  >
  > What about indicating the size of your own armies...if I bump
  > into another nations army it says a large/small/huge army
  > but does not give an adjective for my army...just numbers..
  > i.e. include size adjective for own armies...this would be most
  > helpful to neutrals who can't compare turnsheets as readily...

  Yes, sensible, and have adopted. There are actually quite a few other
  simple sensible changes which should be made to the turnsheets - one day
  I'll learn to write things down when I think of them.. The updated page
  can be viewed at http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/2nded.htm

  RD: When did you update it? I printed it out a couple of weeks back, meaning to give it some serious study, but then the game turns arrived.

  >
  > Just some thoughts I had,
  >
  > Regards,
  >
  > Miles
  >
  > P.S. Keep up the good work...:).

  RD: Keep 'em coming, Miles!

  Richard.

  Thanks for your input.

  Laurence G. Tilley

  http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

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#3

  > What about a command order Destroy war machines...
  > i.e. your own war machines...rather than split/disband to avoid
  > your machines falling into enemy hands i.e. salvage baggage

  Yes, sensible. I have adopted this, along with "Destroy Rations" which
  would serve the same function for food and gold in an army about to face a
  losing battle.
  RD: Why not introduce an order "Destroy baggage" instead of forcing the commander to choose one or the other? Chances are if you set fire to the war machines, the food would go up as well, and vice versa. One order instead of two.

Yes, good stuff, have merged into a single order "Destroy Baggage Train" with two items of requited info

  I disagree -strongly- with the concept of Middle-earth armies carting pay chests of gold coins around with them. I disagree with concept of troops in Middle-earth getting paid in coin, full stop! There are only two types of troops in Tolkien: permanent bodyguards of lords and kings, and levies. These are lifted directly from historical pre-Roman Celtic and Germanic models.

  In both societies, it was the right and duty of every free man to bear arms.

Yes, but an army still incurs costs for a king, even in an early feudal system. The rations idea was an attempt to rebalance the current absurdities of far off armies being funded by electronic transfer, and nations going out through bankruptcy because their army of 3000 men didn't meet the enemy dragon as expected. Another approach which might be more to your taste, could be to substantially increase the food consumption, to say 3 to 5 units per man per turn. That, combined with the other suggestions on desertion etc. would have an effect similar to what I was trying to achieve - the need for long distance campaigning armies to be provided for in advance.

  There was no question of either warband or levies receiving a regular wage in coin, for the simple reason there weren't enough coins to go round. Certainly some Celtic kings produced coins, but never enough to form the basis of an economy.

Well you argue a little over-confidently about the running of Celtic armies, and the historical evidence for what you assert is a little thin from such an early and pre-literate period. Certainly Roman and Early mediaeval armies took pay chests with them on campaign. Paper promisary notes, and simple oaths were used to get merchants to supply campaigns, and the gold, or promise of it (or of land favours etc) was used for the principle requirement of the army after food - booze.

  >
  > What about Weather Spells

  RD: Personally, I really like these spell suggestions. They're not godlike at all. Flood ford is exactly what Elrond did at the Ford of Bruinen when he swept away the nazgul.

I appreciated the reference, but this is where you need to look back at my principles for the second edition. One is to give consideration to the relative advantages/disadvantages of bringing in things which increased complexity. This spell as suggested, would only have seen use once in a blue moon.

  On the same subject, what about "Cause avalanche" as when cruel Caradhras blocked the company from crossing the mountain pass?

Interesting, but again, it would add another paragraph to the rule book, for something with a rare and very specific use. Both these events however would improve the game if added in as encounters for armies crossing fords and entering mountains. The current army encounters are rather feeble. They're rare. Just once in 100 army moves, you might pick up eagles, or woses, or lose a handful of men to some boring and weakly described event. Sometimes you'll meet a wizard, who'll move among your forces, find no mages or emissaries, then toddle off. Encounters which actually prevented or misdirected an army move would be good. But of course more "disaster" encounters should be balanced with more beneficial encounters - certainly meeting Wizards might cause a huge morale boost etc.

  Alter climate too is good, especially if it's only one step. Note there is already one weather spell which forces a change in tactics: Summon Storms.

Yes, but that affects 1 hex for 1 turn, which is why I suggested that something affecting a whole nation, would be out of balance. Affecting the local prevailing weather is one thing - our modern magicians, scientists can do that - though at great cost. Affecting the whole climate (favourably and deliberately) is something we still cannot do. I can see lots of possibilites for more imaginative battle spells, including perhaps weather effects, but they have to be in balance, and have roughly the same value as existing easy, average, hard spells.

If we wanted to go down the complexity route, then teams of mages casting co-operative "super hard spells" could be interesting (see Julian May's "Many Coloured Land" books).

  RD: When did you update it? I printed it out a couple of weeks back, meaning to give it some serious study, but then the game turns arrived.

Just before the post to which you were replying, and just again now.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 07:34 PM 06-05-02, you wrote: