ME Second Edition Idea

mepbmlist
#1

In a message dated 6/2/02 3:41:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk writes:

<< RD: It's hard to believe that an orc agent would find any turncoats
amongst elves or dwarves, or vice versa. And it doesn't answer the question
exactly -how- this agent, whether aided and abetted by minions or not,
succeeds in sabotaging fortifications of stone.
   Richard.
  >>
Simple -- just use a little imagination -- an agent is a specialized mage who
has a spell named "Sabotage Fortifications". If one choses to look at it
that way, he might consider everything in the game to be magic. An emissary
magically creates camps. A commander magically moves his army. It makes
just as much sense as squabbling over building materials. The game is not
intended to be sensible. It is intended to be fun to play.
Which makes much of the arguments about changing the rules nonsensical,
because there is usually too little consideration of the consequences of the
changes proposed.
Before changing various rules, I would propose a much simpler change, a
partial levelling of the nations, some nations being much harder to play than
others because of poorer starting characters, etc.
And while I'm at it, Mr. Tilley, with all due respect, sir, your bandwidth on
this list is HUGE. While not denying your right to post as frequently as you
desire, couldn't you exercise a little self-control and limit yourself to,
say, twice a week? You are not the only one, there are a few other
contributors in the same situation, but yours seems to be the outstanding
example.
Flame me all you want, I don't give a hoot.
Ed Taborek

#2

In a message dated 6/2/02 3:41:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
  rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk writes:

  << RD: It's hard to believe that an orc agent would find any turncoats
  amongst elves or dwarves, or vice versa. And it doesn't answer the question
  exactly -how- this agent, whether aided and abetted by minions or not,
  succeeds in sabotaging fortifications of stone.
     Richard.
    >>
  Simple -- just use a little imagination -- an agent is a specialized mage who
  has a spell named "Sabotage Fortifications". If one choses to look at it
  that way, he might consider everything in the game to be magic. An emissary
  magically creates camps. A commander magically moves his army. It makes
  just as much sense as squabbling over building materials. The game is not
  intended to be sensible. It is intended to be fun to play.
  RD: Sure the game is intended to be fun. But when you read, watch or play fantasy, you indulge in "willing suspension of disbelief" so that you can enjoy, amongst other things, the practise of magic. That certainly does not mean that -everything- in the game is magical. Mundane actions, such as a commander marching and fighting with his army, or an emissary making camp, should still be credible, logical, commonsense, even realistic.

  I have no problem using my imagination to visualise the commander at the head of his army, the emissary saying to his band of pioneers, "this looks like a good spot for a camp, lads," or the assassin sneaking through darkened corridors to slit his victim's throat. Where I have a problem is with a non-magical agent sabotaging stone fortifications. Or come to that, a thief breaking into a nation's treasury and making off with a wagon-load of gold. These are NOT magical actions, they are mundane and as such should be believable without invoking magic.

  Which makes much of the arguments about changing the rules nonsensical,
  because there is usually too little consideration of the consequences of the
  changes proposed.

  RD: If you read Laurence's web page on the subject, you will see that he addresses the problem of "too little consideration of the consequences" by applying some stiff tests to proposed changes before approving any. Admittedly, many proposed changes fall at this first hurdle.

  Before changing various rules, I would propose a much simpler change, a
  partial levelling of the nations, some nations being much harder to play than
  others because of poorer starting characters, etc.

  RD: That is because it is a team game. The different nation strengths and weaknesses should encourage team play. Also, it wouldn't be right for Enion to be as powerful as Elrond or the Witch-king. You pays yer money and takes yer choice.
  But if you want to "partially level" the nations, go ahead and design a scenario. I've designed two, Mike Sankey has designed another, then there are the no-assassin variants, the gunboat variant... you can do this now and provided you can find enough players, Harle will set it up.

  Honestly, I encourage you to have a go. Variants are an excellent way of breathing new life into the game, and of breathing new life into players who may be jaded after a dozen or more years of play!

  Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: TaborekEJ@AOL.com
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea

#3

  I have no problem using my imagination to visualise the commander
at the head of his army, the emissary saying to his band of pioneers
, "this looks like a good spot for a camp, lads," or the assassin
sneaking through darkened corridors to slit his victim's throat.
Where I have a problem is with a non-magical agent sabotaging stone
fortifications.

He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander into
demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although the
walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for longer
than three days without starving to death.

Or come to that, a thief breaking into a nation's treasury and
making off with a wagon-load of gold.

A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
or bills of credit.

Tony Z

···

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:51:44PM +0100, Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

#4

  But if you want to "partially level" the nations, go ahead and design a scenario. I've designed two, Mike Sankey has designed another, then there are the no-assassin variants, the gunboat variant... you can do this now and provided you can find enough players, Harle will set it up.

  Honestly, I encourage you to have a go. Variants are an excellent way of breathing new life into the game, and of breathing new life into players who may be jaded after a dozen or more years of play!

*** We'll support it if you can get around half the players for the game. I just had to close the 2nd game of Last Alliance due to a lack of player interest. Something I would love to do when we have time is create smaller games (like Bofa but with more of more experienced player in mind).

Clint

#5

Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:

He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander into
demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although the
walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for longer
than three days without starving to death.

In the first example, the problem would only switch hands: instead of
"how does the Agent do it by himself" we have "how does the blackmailed
commander do it by himself". Besides, that sounds much more like an
Emissary order (like double-agent) than an Agent order.

The second example sounds better, but would fall under the case of
working only for one (or a few) turn(s). And I believe the agent
poisoning the water supply would reduce the PC itself, not the
fortifications (the spy unit in Civilization II did exactly that, you
guys remember that?). Come to think of it, that sounds like a good
sugestion for a new order, but that's another subject already. :slight_smile:

A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
or bills of credit.

But then you would be catapulting the scenario from a "pre-historical"
mythical period straight into Renaissance or later. I'd say the typical
10K "pay check" mid-level agents draw every turn at enemy's capitals
might be better explained as a small chest with some of the "crown's
jewels" or something. :stuck_out_tongue:

Rodrigo Manh�es
PS: Feel free to tell me to sod off at any time, I'm in this discussion
more for it's speculative valour than to defend any definite opinion.

···

--
"I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I ever had"
Tears for Fears - "Mad World"

#6

  I have no problem using my imagination to visualise the commander

  > at the head of his army, the emissary saying to his band of pioneers
  >, "this looks like a good spot for a camp, lads," or the assassin
  > sneaking through darkened corridors to slit his victim's throat.
  > Where I have a problem is with a non-magical agent sabotaging stone
  > fortifications.

  He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander into
  demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although the
  walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for longer
  than three days without starving to death.
  > Or come to that, a thief breaking into a nation's treasury and
  > making off with a wagon-load of gold.

  A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
  or bills of credit.

  Tony Z

  RD: You're a trier, Tony, I'll say that for you. But none of the above works for me. How does the orc get access to the Noldo garrison commander (or vice versa?). Or to the water supplies?
  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Tony Zbaraschuk
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 9:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea

  On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:51:44PM +0100, Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

  --
  "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
  His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
  And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
  The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

<shrug> That's why they're really good agents; they know the details
of doing stuff like that, and I don't.

TOny Z

···

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 10:39:10PM +0100, Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

  From: Tony Zbaraschuk
  On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:51:44PM +0100, Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
  > I have no problem using my imagination to visualise the commander
  > at the head of his army, the emissary saying to his band of pioneers
  >, "this looks like a good spot for a camp, lads," or the assassin
  > sneaking through darkened corridors to slit his victim's throat.
  > Where I have a problem is with a non-magical agent sabotaging stone
  > fortifications.

  He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander into
  demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although the
  walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for longer
  than three days without starving to death.

  > Or come to that, a thief breaking into a nation's treasury and
  > making off with a wagon-load of gold.

  A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
  or bills of credit.

RD: You're a trier, Tony, I'll say that for you. But none of the
above works for me. How does the orc get access to the Noldo garrison
commander (or vice versa?). Or to the water supplies?

--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

#8

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@p...> wrote:

  From: Tony Zbaraschuk
  To: mepbmlist@y...
  Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 9:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea

  > I have no problem using my imagination to visualise the

commander

  > at the head of his army, the emissary saying to his band of

pioneers

  >, "this looks like a good spot for a camp, lads," or the assassin
  > sneaking through darkened corridors to slit his victim's throat.

  > Where I have a problem is with a non-magical agent sabotaging

stone

  > fortifications.

I thought when I first started looking at this thread that it was
about changing the rules to differentiate building materials but it
appears to be more about agent abilities to sabotage
fortifications. I know it seems a bit abstract to see an agent
slipping in and reducing a heavily fortified site. I interpret that he
has instead made the fortification vulnerable to attack, by opening
the gate somehow, or sabotaging a weak area in the fortification or
bribing key personnel to find the password or open the gates and that
the damage is not really physical to the fortifications but renders
them less secure until the repairs are made. This is a game and a
fairly complex one, but I think trying to fix each and every rule in
the game to try to replicate all the possibilities that can happen in
a war with the technologies present in Middle Earth would result in a
Tome of rules and would make the game so complex as to lose
playability. There are lots of changes that can make the game more
realistic: how about combat, you can't have a smaller army lie in
ambush and get the element of surprise over a larger opponent
resulting in a combat advantage in the game but it happened many times
in the ancient and dark age world. Agents can come in and refuse
challenge steal your artifact or kill your character and then refuse
challenge and move away with impunity to anything but another agent or
perhaps an emissary doubling him. Why not require said agent to escape
detection to carry out his mission with the definition being that if
he is challenged and refuses he may escape with his life but his
mission is foiled?. There has long been the debate that agents are too
powerful and unbalance the game. Usually it is from the free, who lose
the agent war all too often but dramatic changes in the rules are hard
to make as you can't please everyone.

Finally; isn't all this discussion moot. Can the rule book even be
changed short of getting GSI's blessing? I mean I agree that with all
the experience out there now there are improvements that might be made
but where do you stop and can you get the changes approved.

  He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander

into

  demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although

the

  walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for

longer

  than three days without starving to death.
  > Or come to that, a thief breaking into a nation's treasury and
  > making off with a wagon-load of gold.

  A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
  or bills of credit.

  Tony Z

  RD: You're a trier, Tony, I'll say that for you. But none of the

above works for me. How does the orc get access to the Noldo garrison
commander (or vice versa?). Or to the water supplies?

  Richard.

  --
  "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of

morning;

  His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
  And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no

returning."

  The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their

hair.--A.E. Housman

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

···

  ----- Original Message -----
  On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:51:44PM +0100, Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Finally; isn't all this discussion moot. Can the rule book even be
changed short of getting GSI's blessing? I mean I agree that with all
the experience out there now there are improvements that might be made
but where do you stop and can you get the changes approved.

** I think that part of the plan is that should this ever be do-able then the ideas and lots of the groundwork have been set out as a basis. Also it's fun to dream.

Clint

#10

I thought when I first started looking at this thread that it was
about changing the rules to differentiate building materials but it
appears to be more about agent abilities to sabotage
fortifications.

You missed the start of the thread then I think. It began with a suggestion that the destruction of fortifications would be better moved to mages, since the "stretch of the imagination" for agents to sabotage stone fortifications was too great. This led to discussion of agents burning timber fortifications more easily than undermining stone ones, and hence to the suggestions about differentiating between the two - a distinction not currently in the game. So the discussion has only really returned to its roots.

Finally; isn't all this discussion moot. Can the rule book even be
changed short of getting GSI's blessing?

Please take a look at the 2nd ed page: http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/2nded.htm the introduction to which acts as a sort of FAQ for these discussions. There is no likelihood of a 2nd edition being produced in the foreseeable future. It's a consciously hypothetical project and discussion.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 22:03 04/06/2002, kingoftherill wrote:

#11

Clint

  RD: Perfectly summed up, Clint! Let those who have constructive (do-able) ideas continue to contribute them.
  Richard.

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Middle Earth PBM Games
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 10:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea

  >
  >Finally; isn't all this discussion moot. Can the rule book even be
  >changed short of getting GSI's blessing? I mean I agree that with all
  >the experience out there now there are improvements that might be made
  >but where do you stop and can you get the changes approved.

  >** I think that part of the plan is that should this ever be do-able then
  >the ideas and lots of the groundwork have been set out as a basis. Also
  >it's fun to dream.

#12

Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:

  > He doesn't sabotage them; he blackmails the fortress commander into
  > demolishing them. Or he poisons the water reservoir so, although the
  > walls are still there, nobody can hold up in the fortress for longer
  > than three days without starving to death.

  In the first example, the problem would only switch hands: instead of
  "how does the Agent do it by himself" we have "how does the blackmailed
  commander do it by himself". Besides, that sounds much more like an
  Emissary order (like double-agent) than an Agent order.

  The second example sounds better, but would fall under the case of
  working only for one (or a few) turn(s). And I believe the agent
  poisoning the water supply would reduce the PC itself, not the
  fortifications (the spy unit in Civilization II did exactly that, you
  guys remember that?). Come to think of it, that sounds like a good
  sugestion for a new order, but that's another subject already. :slight_smile:
  RD: That is actually a very interesting idea for a new hard agent order: Poison water (or food) supply, which if successful reduces the pop size one level, and possibly also reduces the size of any defending armies. Thus it serves the same purpose as sabotage, as it reduces the defence value of the pop, but is more credible than sabotage. I recommend this one to Laurence for consideration. Nice one Rodrigo!

  > A scam artist running a pyramid scheme. A set of forged documents
  > or bills of credit.

  But then you would be catapulting the scenario from a "pre-historical"
  mythical period straight into Renaissance or later.

  RD: I'm sure Tony was having a laugh when he wrote that, and didn't intend it for serious consideration.

  Rodrigo: I'd say the typical
  10K "pay check" mid-level agents draw every turn at enemy's capitals
  might be better explained as a small chest with some of the "crown's
  jewels" or something. :stuck_out_tongue:

  RD: well, that's better than a wagon-load of gold. But it supposes a new set of crown jewels every turn!
  Another thing: say an agent did manage to drug the guards, gain access to the treasury, and make off with a sack of gold or the crown jewels - don't you think that security measures would be increased to prevent it happening again? Locks would be changed, the guards doubled, keys split between two guards, a reliable officer placed in charge of security etc, etc. It should be more than doubly difficult for an agent to carry out such a theft again.

  What about a command order: increase security, which would have a gold cost: the more gold spent, the tougher the security. This would only last one turn, so it would be prohibitively expensive to do it for a long time or on a large scale, not to mention using a valuable command order. But at least it would make it possible to stop incredible levels of repeat thefts.

  Rodrigo Manhães
  PS: Feel free to tell me to sod off at any time, I'm in this discussion
  more for it's speculative valour than to defend any definite opinion.

  RD: I for one enjoyed your contribution.
  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Rodrigo Manhaes
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 10:22 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea

  --
  "I find it kind of funny
  I find it kind of sad
  The dreams in which I'm dying
  Are the best I ever had"
  Tears for Fears - "Mad World"

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

Hi Richard

I agree that some or even many of the things that happen in the MEPBM are not so realistic.

But in my eyes, you miss one point:
ME is a quite balanced game.
If you, for example make stealing much gold more difficult or even prevent it, how should the DS survive?

I think fortification sabotageing is a good balance to the FP ability to get huge masses of timber into warmachines.

What I would improve on MEPBM are some quite easy changes:
New encounters, new riddles, randomized artifacts and dragon reactions
The most important problem MEPBM has is, that it was played too often....
Everybody knows everything.... there should be some points changed from game to game to make every game Unique....

Some other good thing I have seen in another postal game were:
- If you walk through blind Hexes, you get locations of Pop�s you walk through....
- Learning Spells costs more time depending on how good they are...

For a real new second addition I would love to see more nation specific troop types....

Stefan

#14

Just checked it out (much improved over the earlier site btw) and it's well worth a look. Lots of potential debate here which would take weeks to discuss. :slight_smile: Lots of minor tweaks and more major ones - some of which I agree with and others that I don't think are suitable.

Note, we're planning on updating the rulebook to include all the various scenarios and bits and pieces. We need some spare man power for this though and at present we haven't got it. (Practised on the Bofa Rulebook which should be out as soon as we finish this playtest game).

>Finally; isn't all this discussion moot. Can the rule book even be

>changed short of getting GSI's blessing?

Please take a look at the 2nd ed page:
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/2nded.htm the introduction to which
acts as a sort of FAQ for these discussions. There is no likelihood of a
2nd edition being produced in the foreseeable future. It's a consciously
hypothetical project and discussion.

Clint

#15

Okay some ideas that have been lurking...

Has the Mage Teach Spell been put forward yet? Same nation Same complexity as the original learn spell (always at a lower rank - some equation to work this out would be easy enough to work out). Different nation (Friendly relations each) 1 level of complexity higher.

A different idea for Guarding agents - some sort of sum for agents guarding. So 1xHighestAg + 1/2xNextHighestAg + 1/3.... would be the guard rating.

You could then use the idea for characters attempting the assassination as well. Some sort of combined level for assassinations vs guard rating with the Rank of the character thrown in somewhere.

Different movement rates for LC to HC (LC always move as if fed and move first in non-mountains). (Not sure if that one has been put forward).

I'll ponder some more as time goes on.

Clint

#16

Hi Richard

  I agree that some or even many of the things that happen in the MEPBM are not so realistic.

  But in my eyes, you miss one point:
  ME is a quite balanced game.
  If you, for example make stealing much gold more difficult or even prevent it, how should the DS survive?

  I think fortification sabotageing is a good balance to the FP ability to get huge masses of timber into warmachines.
  RD: I agree that it is vital to retain game balance. But there is already a version where assassinations and kidnaps are not allowed, and these are DS agents' biggest advantages. I don't see that making stealing and sabotaging more difficult affects the DS any worse than the FP.

  What I would improve on MEPBM are some quite easy changes:
  New encounters, new riddles, randomized artifacts and dragon reactions
  The most important problem MEPBM has is, that it was played too often....
  Everybody knows everything.... there should be some points changed from game to game to make every game Unique....

  RD: Yes, I agree with you on all those.

  Some other good thing I have seen in another postal game were:
  - If you walk through blind Hexes, you get locations of Pop´s you walk through....

  RD: That would be nice!

  - Learning Spells costs more time depending on how good they are...

  RD: Don't agree with that. If you want to learn a "hard" spell you have to learn the "easy" and "average" spells first. This effectively means that if you are starting from scratch, it takes 6 weeks to learn a "hard" spell, and that's if your mage is good enough! Most mages need to spend several turns prenticing before they can learn "hard" spells effectively.

  For a real new second addition I would love to see more nation specific troop types....

  Stefan

  RD: Yes, this has been mentioned before, and I agree with that concept too.
  Richard.

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Stefan Maas
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 8:32 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Second Edition Idea