MEPBM Camp Placing on Ex-Starting Pop Ctr Ruins

Until recently I've always believed that placing a camp on a starting
ruins or the ruins of a razed starting pop ctr is always an auto
success order.

I've no reason to doubt whether placing a camp on a starting ruins
is any other than auto succeed for nothing refutes this yet.

However recently I tried placing a camp with a startin E30 on the
hex of a known startin pop ctr that I razed. I had expected this to
succeed automatically but discovered that this is not so. My action
did not suceed and therefore I wonder about this. Has anyone has
any info about this or have any comments on this ? On checking
the map, the hex remains a blank hex w/o any pop ctrs on it,
meaning no one else placed one b4 me on the same turn
simultaneusly.

rgds

i11u5i0n

--- "b.e." <baerauble@myself.com> wrote: > Until
recently I've always believed that placing a

camp on a starting
ruins or the ruins of a razed starting pop ctr is
always an auto
success order.

I've no reason to doubt whether placing a camp on a
starting ruins
is any other than auto succeed for nothing refutes
this yet.

However recently I tried placing a camp with a
startin E30 on the
hex of a known startin pop ctr that I razed. I had
expected this to
succeed automatically but discovered that this is
not so. My action
did not suceed and therefore I wonder about this.
Has anyone has
any info about this or have any comments on this ?
On checking
the map, the hex remains a blank hex w/o any pop
ctrs on it,
meaning no one else placed one b4 me on the same
turn
simultaneusly.

rgds

i11u5i0n

greetings.

did you fail due to your emissary failing, or did you
fail with the pop centre limit reached ?

thanks
din

p.s the aussies lost the cricket (i heard a rumours
that for the entire three tests, the indian star
bowler only bowled when the indian umpire was in
charge, but thats sour grapes on my part to even hint
why that is so). Then I hear that harly's battle of
the planets is no more (sob). I've heard that trouble
travels in three so I wonder what other bad luck will
I get hit with ???

Oh yeah, long time no hear for b.e. So hi.

I hope your 1650 grudge game is going well. From what
I hear, the results are completely different from the
game I played in with you, ie its turn 8 and both WK
and Rhu are 'very sick'. Rhu with no more m/t, and WK
just about to lose his last one. When the current DS
played free, we had these two nations alive and
kicking for the entire game.

Makes me wonder if better tactics, and not improve pop
centres or characters, have a larger effect on the
effectiveness of certain nations that people think
play poorly.

but back to the third bad luck, .... maybe a nasty
email is coming my way :slight_smile:

pps battle of the planets is now battle for the
planets. Seems harly lawyers said 'surrender' as soon
as the botp comic makers visited. So the harly empire
is still going strong.

:slight_smile:

···

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Then I hear that harly's battle of
the planets is no more (sob). I've heard that trouble
travels in three so I wonder what other bad luck will
I get hit with ???

It's getting a masive relaunch from "Battle of the Planets"and is now called
"Battle for the Planets". Wait for tha national relaunch soon.

:slight_smile:

Clint

"b.e." wrote:

Until recently I've always believed that placing a camp on a starting
ruins or the ruins of a razed starting pop ctr is always an auto
success order.

I've no reason to doubt whether placing a camp on a starting ruins
is any other than auto succeed for nothing refutes this yet.

However recently I tried placing a camp with a startin E30 on the
hex of a known startin pop ctr that I razed. I had expected this to
succeed automatically but discovered that this is not so. My action
did not suceed and therefore I wonder about this. Has anyone has
any info about this or have any comments on this ? On checking
the map, the hex remains a blank hex w/o any pop ctrs on it,
meaning no one else placed one b4 me on the same turn
simultaneusly.

My understanding is that ruins do not count against the 'camp limit' so
if your Emissary succeeds you will always get a camp even if everyone
else gets 'insufficient populace.' However if the emmy fails his roll
you will still fail to get a camp.

-ED \1/

If the pop center is someones victory condition, it will remain as a
ruins and can be recamped even after the limit (it can require a
decent emmy to do so, however.) If you show up and it doesn't say
"the ruins of ...." then I've found it to be no different from any
other hex.

New pop centers that degrade from loyalty are in the same category -
e.g. no different from any blank hex. If you have the skill for it,
you can use this feature to depopulate the map on the other folks
side. Take the camps, downgrade them, place new ones in your turf.

Pop centers that are destroyed in battle are always ruins and can be
recamped.

Just my 2 cents,

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:

"b.e." wrote:
>
> Until recently I've always believed that placing a camp on a

starting

> ruins or the ruins of a razed starting pop ctr is always an auto
> success order.
>
> I've no reason to doubt whether placing a camp on a starting ruins
> is any other than auto succeed for nothing refutes this yet.
>
> However recently I tried placing a camp with a startin E30 on the
> hex of a known startin pop ctr that I razed. I had expected this

to

> succeed automatically but discovered that this is not so. My

action

> did not suceed and therefore I wonder about this. Has anyone has
> any info about this or have any comments on this ? On checking
> the map, the hex remains a blank hex w/o any pop ctrs on it,
> meaning no one else placed one b4 me on the same turn
> simultaneusly.
>
My understanding is that ruins do not count against the 'camp limit'

so

if your Emissary succeeds you will always get a camp even if

everyone

else gets 'insufficient populace.' However if the emmy fails his

roll

···

you will still fail to get a camp.

-ED \1/

greetings

Nice to see a new issue.

I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take 10%
of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).

And I felt that in transfers, the teamsters load the
stuff onto wagons, take them out the warehouse doors,
10% gets taken, and the remaining stuff is moved back
in. I didn't noticed that stock that doesn't need to
move isn't included when calculating stock losses.

And as for comedy of errors, my worse one (apart from
mixing up g28 and g29), is 525 infyour (as Clint
follows the numbers, not the code, when they are
different). So this becomes 525 infothr, and my 30
point emmissaries fail to get a skill rank.

:frowning:

thanks
din

···

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Din wrote:

I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take 10%
of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).

They take 10% of the amount moved *in addition* to the shipment itself.
The article is in error claiming that they take more at 100% than 91,
because they can't take what ain't there. So 100% is really just
shorthand for 'move as much as possible.' Mathematically, there is *NO*
difference between moving 91% and 100%! OTOH if you put 90% they will
take an additional 9%, leaving a few units behind.

-ED \1/

Hey as the co-author of that article I must disagree with
you Ed. There _is_ a difference between moving 100% and
90%. The caravans do not take 10% of the amount moved,
they take 10% of the amount you _specify_ to move.
You may not like that the program works that way, but
it does. So specify 100% and they will take 10%, but
specify 91% and they will take 9.1%.

Jeremy Richman

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:

Din wrote:
>
>
> I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
> transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take 10%
> of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).
>
They take 10% of the amount moved *in addition* to the shipment

itself.

The article is in error claiming that they take more at 100% than

91,

because they can't take what ain't there. So 100% is really just
shorthand for 'move as much as possible.' Mathematically, there is

*NO*

difference between moving 91% and 100%! OTOH if you put 90% they

will

···

take an additional 9%, leaving a few units behind.

-ED \1/

So what your saying is if I move 50% they'll take 5%.Or 75%---7.5%.
Correct?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <JeremyRichman@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: bree

Hey as the co-author of that article I must disagree with
you Ed. There _is_ a difference between moving 100% and
90%. The caravans do not take 10% of the amount moved,
they take 10% of the amount you _specify_ to move.
You may not like that the program works that way, but
it does. So specify 100% and they will take 10%, but
specify 91% and they will take 9.1%.

Jeremy Richman

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:
> Din wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
> > transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take 10%
> > of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).
> >
> They take 10% of the amount moved *in addition* to the shipment
itself.
> The article is in error claiming that they take more at 100% than
91,
> because they can't take what ain't there. So 100% is really just
> shorthand for 'move as much as possible.' Mathematically, there is
*NO*
> difference between moving 91% and 100%! OTOH if you put 90% they
will
> take an additional 9%, leaving a few units behind.
>
> -ED \1/

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>
> I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
> transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take
10%
> of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).

I'm still confused (easily done for me I must admit).

Ok, say I have ten lots of 100 steel in camps that I
want to move to my capital (thats 1000 steel in
total).

If I order 100%, then all my steel gets sucked up, and
I end up with 900 units of steel in my capital.

I felt that if I order 90%, then 90 units of steel get
moved (90% of 100 is 90 - so each camp has 10 steel
left behind). I lose 10% of the 900 being moved. Thus
I end up with 810 units of steel at my capital.

Am I wrong ?

thanks
din

···

>
They take 10% of the amount moved *in addition* to
the shipment itself.
The article is in error claiming that they take more
at 100% than 91,
because they can't take what ain't there. So 100%
is really just
shorthand for 'move as much as possible.'
Mathematically, there is *NO*
difference between moving 91% and 100%! OTOH if you
put 90% they will
take an additional 9%, leaving a few units behind.

-ED \1/

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I think your right:)!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] bree

> >
> > I'm still lost why 90% is the same as 100 % for
> > transfers (I always felt that the teamsters take
> 10%
> > of my 90%, so I'm left with 81%).

I'm still confused (easily done for me I must admit).

Ok, say I have ten lots of 100 steel in camps that I
want to move to my capital (thats 1000 steel in
total).

If I order 100%, then all my steel gets sucked up, and
I end up with 900 units of steel in my capital.

I felt that if I order 90%, then 90 units of steel get
moved (90% of 100 is 90 - so each camp has 10 steel
left behind). I lose 10% of the 900 being moved. Thus
I end up with 810 units of steel at my capital.

Am I wrong ?

thanks
din

> >
> They take 10% of the amount moved *in addition* to
> the shipment itself.
> The article is in error claiming that they take more
> at 100% than 91,
> because they can't take what ain't there. So 100%
> is really just
> shorthand for 'move as much as possible.'
> Mathematically, there is *NO*
> difference between moving 91% and 100%! OTOH if you
> put 90% they will
> take an additional 9%, leaving a few units behind.
>
> -ED \1/
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin
> Games
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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JeremyRichman@compuserve.com wrote:

Hey as the co-author of that article I must disagree with
you Ed. There _is_ a difference between moving 100% and
90%.

That wasn't the issue in dispute and it's NOT what you said below.
We're talking the difference between 100% and 91%, NOT 90%. Keep your
figures straight.

The caravans do not take 10% of the amount moved,
they take 10% of the amount you _specify_ to move.
You may not like that the program works that way, but
it does. So specify 100% and they will take 10%, but
specify 91% and they will take 9.1%.

Bullcrap. Might I suggest you actually try issuing said orders and
count the number of units at each location? Since you obviously haven't
done the empirical observation and are also apparently math-deficient,
this will have to be spelled out for you.

Assume you issue an order to move 100%. The teamsters cannot take an
additional 10% because it simply isn't there; you can't take 110% of
stock unless your nation has the Yogi Berra special ability. Obviously
teamsters don't move things without geting paid, so they will take as
much as possible - roughly 91% (actually 90.9% but let's keep this
simple). The net effect is everything (100%) disappears from its origin
and 91% ends up where you wanted it to go.

If they took 10% of stock they'd only be moving 90% and getting paid an
extra 1% they didn't earn - and teamsters don't do that (union rules).
Moreover they would not be moving as much as possible, and thereby not
living up to their contract, and teamsters don't do that (union rules).
So 100% effectively equals 91%, every time. I've done this enough times
in actual game play to be quite certain of the results, and can
invariably calculate down to the last unit (though that is rarely
necessary).

If you issue an order for 91% the teamsters will move 91% (actually
90.9% but it gets rounded to the nearest whole unit anyway) and take
9.1% as their fee. 90.9 + 9.1 = 100% of the stock leaves its origin
point, *exactly* the same amount as if you told them to move 100%. And
91% gets to the destination, *exactly* the same amount as if you issued
a 100% move.

IOW, ordering a 100% move will transport exactly the same number of
units and cost exactly the same fee as a 91% move order. Got that?

Don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself; send steel, gold,
and mithril to my capital. :slight_smile:

Oh, and stop making assumptions about what I do or don't like, you're
not qualified. As it happens I'm quite happy with the transport system;
what I dislike is people misinforming new players.

-ED \1/

John Jernigan wrote:

So what your saying is if I move 50% they'll take 5%.Or 75%---7.5%.
Correct?

That's correct, up to 91%. They can't take any more at that point
because there's not enough left to pay them. And you know how teamsters
are about getting paid...

-ED \1/

Din wrote:

Ok, say I have ten lots of 100 steel in camps that I
want to move to my capital (thats 1000 steel in
total).

If I order 100%, then all my steel gets sucked up, and
I end up with 900 units of steel in my capital.

No, you'd have 909; the remaining 91 are taken as fee. That's as close
to 100% as you can get.

I felt that if I order 90%, then 90 units of steel get
moved (90% of 100 is 90 - so each camp has 10 steel
left behind). I lose 10% of the 900 being moved. Thus
I end up with 810 units of steel at my capital.

Am I wrong ?

Mistaken :slight_smile:
Each camp would send 90 steel, and an *additional* 9 would be taken as
portage fee, leaving 900 at your capital and 1 at each camp.

-ED \1/
'Will calculate steel shipments for food'

Yup, that's what I've always believed in.

Let me elaborate, basically one of my strategies for developing
startin emmies is to place camps on starting ruins which has
always succeeded, which could just be due to my uncanny good
luck but I wouldn't know and therefore I'm asking. Anyone EVER
FAILED to place a camp on a starting ruin ?

So following this assumption, I also assumed that starting ex-pop
ctrs that are razed and becomes a "ruins", i.e. it shows up as
a ruins if you put a char there, I assumed that placing camps on
ruins of razed ex-starting pop ctrs is also an auto succeed order.
Only recently I've discovered that this is not the case.

And yes, on starting ruins and ruins that are created from razed
ex-starting pop ctrs, the accepted theory is that camps can always
be placed on this type of hexes regardless of whether camp limit
is reached or not.

rgds

b.e.

···

If the pop center is someones victory condition, it will remain as a
ruins and can be recamped even after the limit (it can require a
decent emmy to do so, however.) If you show up and it doesn't say
"the ruins of ...." then I've found it to be no different from any
other hex.

New pop centers that degrade from loyalty are in the same category -
e.g. no different from any blank hex. If you have the skill for it,
you can use this feature to depopulate the map on the other folks
side. Take the camps, downgrade them, place new ones in your turf.

Pop centers that are destroyed in battle are always ruins and can be
recamped.

Just my 2 cents,

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:
> "b.e." wrote:
> >
> > Until recently I've always believed that placing a camp on a
starting
> > ruins or the ruins of a razed starting pop ctr is always an auto
> > success order.
> >
> > I've no reason to doubt whether placing a camp on a starting ruins
> > is any other than auto succeed for nothing refutes this yet.
> >
> > However recently I tried placing a camp with a startin E30 on the
> > hex of a known startin pop ctr that I razed. I had expected this
to
> > succeed automatically but discovered that this is not so. My
action
> > did not suceed and therefore I wonder about this. Has anyone has
> > any info about this or have any comments on this ? On checking
> > the map, the hex remains a blank hex w/o any pop ctrs on it,
> > meaning no one else placed one b4 me on the same turn
> > simultaneusly.
> >
> My understanding is that ruins do not count against the 'camp limit'
so
> if your Emissary succeeds you will always get a camp even if
everyone
> else gets 'insufficient populace.' However if the emmy fails his
roll
> you will still fail to get a camp.
>
> -ED \1/

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Anyone EVER

FAILED to place a camp on a starting ruin ?

Yes. I have also succeeded sometimes with very low-ranked emmies (like
E15). Some players theorize that there is some sort of bonus to emmies
trying to CreCmp on ruins, but I am not sure. I have failed with a
decent (40-ish) emmy. My dataset is just too small to draw
conclusions.

Mark

Well, I'll be jiggered. Of all the items in the
"Tips and Tricks" articles, this was the one that
came from my earliest ME days, years and years ago.
Back then Ernie and I took it for granted that moving
100% meant losing 10% (we don't remember checking
that or _not_ checking it). The only thing we
checked was what happened when you moved 91%. We've
been using 91% on all 947 orders since forever and
never had occasion to re-check the matter.

Ed, thanks for the correction. I sent email to Clint
that I'd like to publish a correction/retraction in
the next Bree crediting you with having set me straight,
or alternatively if you'd prefer you could write some
sort of "letter to the editor" to be published in Bree.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:

JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
>
> Hey as the co-author of that article I must disagree with
> you Ed. There _is_ a difference between moving 100% and
> 90%.
>
That wasn't the issue in dispute and it's NOT what you said below.
We're talking the difference between 100% and 91%, NOT 90%. Keep

your

figures straight.

> The caravans do not take 10% of the amount moved,
> they take 10% of the amount you _specify_ to move.
> You may not like that the program works that way, but
> it does. So specify 100% and they will take 10%, but
> specify 91% and they will take 9.1%.
>
Bullcrap. Might I suggest you actually try issuing said orders and
count the number of units at each location? Since you obviously

haven't

done the empirical observation and are also apparently

math-deficient,

this will have to be spelled out for you.

Assume you issue an order to move 100%. The teamsters cannot take

an

additional 10% because it simply isn't there; you can't take 110% of
stock unless your nation has the Yogi Berra special ability.

Obviously

teamsters don't move things without geting paid, so they will take

as

much as possible - roughly 91% (actually 90.9% but let's keep this
simple). The net effect is everything (100%) disappears from its

origin

and 91% ends up where you wanted it to go.

If they took 10% of stock they'd only be moving 90% and getting paid

an

extra 1% they didn't earn - and teamsters don't do that (union

rules).

Moreover they would not be moving as much as possible, and thereby

not

living up to their contract, and teamsters don't do that (union

rules).

So 100% effectively equals 91%, every time. I've done this enough

times

in actual game play to be quite certain of the results, and can
invariably calculate down to the last unit (though that is rarely
necessary).

If you issue an order for 91% the teamsters will move 91% (actually
90.9% but it gets rounded to the nearest whole unit anyway) and take
9.1% as their fee. 90.9 + 9.1 = 100% of the stock leaves its origin
point, *exactly* the same amount as if you told them to move 100%.

And

91% gets to the destination, *exactly* the same amount as if you

issued

a 100% move.

IOW, ordering a 100% move will transport exactly the same number of
units and cost exactly the same fee as a 91% move order. Got that?

Don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself; send steel,

gold,

and mithril to my capital. :slight_smile:

Oh, and stop making assumptions about what I do or don't like,

you're

not qualified. As it happens I'm quite happy with the transport

system;

···

what I dislike is people misinforming new players.

-ED \1/