middle earth question for people time on their hands

RD: the only slight quibble I have with the above is
that the Vanyar (who
never left Valinor except once, to fight in ther
Great Battle) were the most
powerful of the Eldar, and were known as Fair or
Light-Elves.

The Vanyar were the most powerful. Before star-wars
come out as a RPG, we use to play a
Middle-earth/Star-wars game. In this history the
Undying lands were taken over by the human invasion
(and the Valar abandoned the land to move elsewhere),
and the Vanar were the jedi-knights who are now a
shadow of their former glory. The fight was mainly in
middle-earth, since the empire was too hard for us
mere players to overcome. The evil humans had the
numbers, but us good-guys were still fighting back.

The Noldor

were the most powerful of the Eldar who stayed in
Middle-earth, and were
also known as Deep-elves.

My turn to quibble. The noldor didn't just stay. They
left middle-earth (for a decent amount of time) and
then came back to fight Morgorth. The Vanyar also
left, but they accepted the Valar declaration not to
leave and attack Morgorth (I'm not sure if the Vanyar
had the slightest interest in coming back - perhaps RD
or laurence can tell me ?).

The Sindar were the least

powerful of the Eldar,
also known as grey elves. High Elves was an
alternative name for the Eldar,
all 3 tribes of them. The Eldar were the elves who
undertook the Great
Journey to Aman, the dwelling of the gods on earth,
and were therefore
blessed to a greater or lesser degree.

I think the Sindar was part of the group of Elves that
took up the journey, but didn't cross the sea to Aman.

The Silvan elves, the most numerous and least
powerful, were not counted
amongst the Eldar because they had never left
Middle-earth.

> Sauron was a magican who was mentioned in the
tales of
> beren. In the LoTR Sauron was able to breed common
> orcs into more powerful orcs. Its implied that he
used
> humans to cross-breed with the common orcs.
>
> but morgorth was the one who corrupted elves into
the
> orcs.
>
Sauron was actually a Maia, or lesser god, of the
same order as Gandalf and
the other wizards, Balrogs, Tom Bombadil, and
(believe it or not) Farmer
Maggot (how else d'you think he was able to resist a
Nazgul).

I knew that Sauron was a Maia, but I was remembering
him when he changed shape to fight Beren and his elven
dog (whose name escaped me - but who I think had also
gone to Aman and then come back). I think Sauron was
called a magican in the book (methinks it was when he
captured Beren).

  Morgoth was

an Ainu, or major god, who was given greater power
than any other by
Iluvatar,the supreme god.

yeap. I think its more fingerprints since in christian
stories Satan was also given greater power than the
other angels (or so I remember being told as a young
child).

In passing, it is interesting to note how similar
the name Vanyar is to the
Vanar (lesser gods) of Norse Mythology. Come to
that, Ainu is not a million
miles from the Aesir, greater Norse gods. Tolkien's
dwarf Gimle takes his
name from an identical Icelandic word meaning
Shining Heaven.

funny that :slight_smile: Methinks Tolkien (who studied such
languages and stories) threw such names into this book
as a form of admiration (and they sounded good).

I think the whole 'ring' thing is of icelandic stuff.

Regards,

Richard.

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Din <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au> wrote

The Vanyar were the most powerful. Before star-wars
come out as a RPG, we use to play a
Middle-earth/Star-wars game. In this history the
Undying lands were taken over by the human invasion
(and the Valar abandoned the land to move elsewhere),
and the Vanar were the jedi-knights who are now a
shadow of their former glory.

The Noldor
> were the most powerful of the Eldar who stayed in
> Middle-earth, and were
> also known as Deep-elves.

My turn to quibble. The noldor didn't just stay. They
left middle-earth (for a decent amount of time) and
then came back to fight Morgorth. The Vanyar also
left, but they accepted the Valar declaration not to
leave and attack Morgorth (I'm not sure if the Vanyar
had the slightest interest in coming back - perhaps RD
or laurence can tell me ?).

RD: Quite correct - the Noldor dwelt in Arda for ages (perhaps literally)
before returning to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth. The Vanyar only left
Arda the once, as part of the host of Valinor, to take part in the Great
Battle in which Morgoth was finally overthrown. The Vanyar returned to
Arda/Valinor with the Valar and stayed there ever since.

The Sindar were the least
> powerful of the Eldar,
> also known as grey elves. High Elves was an
> alternative name for the Eldar,
> all 3 tribes of them. The Eldar were the elves who
> undertook the Great
> Journey to Aman, the dwelling of the gods on earth,
> and were therefore
> blessed to a greater or lesser degree.

I think the Sindar was part of the group of Elves that
took up the journey, but didn't cross the sea to Aman.

RD: Oops, yes, you're right again. The Sindar did achieve much wisdom,
learning from Melian the Maia who wed their overlord Elwe/Elu Thingol and
perhaps also from Osse, the Maia who persuaded the Sindar not to cross the
sea to Aman.

>

I knew that Sauron was a Maia, but I was remembering
him when he changed shape to fight Beren and his elven
dog (whose name escaped me - but who I think had also
gone to Aman and then come back). I think Sauron was
called a magican in the book (methinks it was when he
captured Beren).

RD: the dog's name was Huan. He was actually born in Valinor, one of the
hunting-dogs of the Vala Orome. Orome gave Huan to Celegorm (Noldo) who
took him to Middle-earth.

  Morgoth was
> an Ainu, or major god, who was given greater power
> than any other by
> Iluvatar,the supreme god.

yeap. I think its more fingerprints since in christian
stories Satan was also given greater power than the
other angels (or so I remember being told as a young
child).

RD: Exactly so.

>
> In passing, it is interesting to note how similar
> the name Vanyar is to the
> Vanar (lesser gods) of Norse Mythology. Come to
> that, Ainu is not a million
> miles from the Aesir, greater Norse gods. Tolkien's
> dwarf Gimle takes his
> name from an identical Icelandic word meaning
> Shining Heaven.
>

funny that :slight_smile: Methinks Tolkien (who studied such
languages and stories) threw such names into this book
as a form of admiration (and they sounded good).

I think the whole 'ring' thing is of icelandic stuff.

RD: Oh no, Tolkien made use of Celtic mythology as well! Witness Tolkien's
Avallone, a dead ringer for Avalon, also an immortal island which could not
be reached by mundane means. Plus we've already agreed that Tolkien used
Christian elements as well.

Tolkien understood 'genuine' mythology and religion, and one reason for the
undying success of his writings is the cunning way he wove archetypes from
these sources into his work. Also, as you've pointed out, the names sound
right. No other author has ever come close to producing such a crop of good
names. But then, as far as I'm aware, no other author invented an entire
new language with which to back his work up!

Regards,

Richard.