Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?
Clint
Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?Clint
RD: Yes, the more stats you can hide the better. Fog of war and all that.
I HATE the combat calculator which will, in advance, work out the results
of any battle before it takes place.
Battle is NOT a matter of pure mathematics. Things like morale, timing,
leadership all play a part. Battle is NOT an exact science - Sun Tzu wrote
of the "Art of War" not the science of war.
Richard.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 2:27 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
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Depends on whether they're "players" or scientist-mathematicians (LOTS
of those in the game)! ;> By the way Clint, ever get that last
registrant for the NKA game? If so, when we starting?
The ever patient (yah right) Pat
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
···
Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?Clint
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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When we start... 
NKA games bane of my life...
Clint
Depends on whether they're "players" or scientist-mathematicians (LOTS
of those in the game)! ;> By the way Clint, ever get that last
registrant for the NKA game? If so, when we starting?The ever patient (yah right) Pat
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
>
> Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats
or
> not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of
fortifications
> etc?
>
> Clint
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
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···
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Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?
Some do, some don't.
Not very helpful maybe but it should save you some time.
-ED \1/
···
--
"Which wouldn't be so bad if the logic didn't suck meteorites through a
glass pipette."
- Deborah Brown proposes a new measure for adequacy of reasoning
Do YOU?
> Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats
or
> not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of
fortifications
···
> etc?
>
Some do, some don't.Not very helpful maybe but it should save you some time.
-ED \1/
--
"Which wouldn't be so bad if the logic didn't suck meteorites through a
glass pipette."
- Deborah Brown proposes a new measure for adequacy of reasoningMiddle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Yes. The game needs an "art" to it. Making it a total science would dilute
the game.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle EarthGot a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?Clint
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Yes. The game needs an "art" to it. Making it a total science would dilute
the game.
RD: Nicely put. War and magic are both 'arts' not sciences, so games based
on them should be arts too.
Richard.
> From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
>
>
> Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats
or
> not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of
fortifications
> etc?
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@lakenet.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Aye. Nothing in life, or combat, is scientifically
sure. Keep some of it a mystery, this is a good thing
for the game, and the spirit of Middle Earth.
JB
--- "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@lakenet.com>
wrote:
···
Yes. The game needs an "art" to it. Making it a
total science would dilute
the game.> -----Original Message-----
> From: Middle Earth PBM Games
[mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
>
>
> Got a small query - do players like the hidden
aspect of the game stats or
> not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics,
effects of fortifications
> etc?
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin
Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
=====
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Well said. Case closed.
···
--- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com> wrote:
Aye. Nothing in life, or combat, is scientifically
sure. Keep some of it a mystery, this is a good
thing
for the game, and the spirit of Middle Earth.JB
--- "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@lakenet.com>
wrote:
> Yes. The game needs an "art" to it. Making it a
> total science would dilute
> the game.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Middle Earth PBM Games
> [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
> > To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
> >
> >
> > Got a small query - do players like the hidden
> aspect of the game stats or
> > not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics,
> effects of fortifications
> > etc?
> >
> > Clint
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and
Harlequin
> Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> > http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>=====
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Thanks.
···
Well said. Case closed.
--- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Aye. Nothing in life, or combat, is scientifically
> sure. Keep some of it a mystery, this is a good
> thing
> for the game, and the spirit of Middle Earth.
>
> JB
>
> --- "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@lakenet.com>
> wrote:
> > Yes. The game needs an "art" to it. Making it a
> > total science would dilute
> > the game.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Middle Earth PBM Games
> > [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
> > > To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
> > >
> > >
> > > Got a small query - do players like the hidden
> > aspect of the game stats or
> > > not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics,
> > effects of fortifications
> > > etc?
> > >
> > > Clint
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and
> Harlequin
> > Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> > > http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> john_h_briggs@yahoo.com
>
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Clint,
I feel that these unknowns work well when combined with the
uncertainty of specific combat actions. If a player always knew the
results of his/her actions prior to submitting orders, they may not
perform actions that they may otherwise have taken. An element of
chance exists for all actions (even in real life) - as long as the
odds are representative of the "conflict", this should not be an
issue.
That is the long-winded answer. The short winded answer is that I
like it just like it is and would consider the game to have less
appeal if a turn's results could be accurately projected even before
the orders were processed.
Chris
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:
Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game
stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of
fortifications
···
etc?
Clint
My vote... Keep it hidden. In fact, I'd like to see a little more randomness put in
to some aspects. For example, you can challenge someone with 3 to 1 odds and still
lose (I know... I lost Elrond that way). However, the army combats seem to be
extremely predictable (if you know the info for both sides). It would give the game
more mystery if the army combats had a (small) random aspect as well.
Mike
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle EarthGot a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
etc?Clint
But the question is whether or not hiding the stats is the best way to represent the unpredictable results of battle. There appears to be a random element in many of the orders in MEPBM, but curiously, the battle algorithms have no random element. That's why the combat calculators can exist. Hiding the stats prevents the battle result from being totally predictable, but it's actually a weak substitute for a greater random element and more sophisticated tactical system.
IF you have very good intelligence as to the composition of an enemy army, you can work out the combat result with near certainty, because the value of "his horse cowered, teeth chattering, half a league behind the battle lines" was worked out ages ago. What you don't ever see is the famous battles of history reproduced - were commanders have won battles due to skill or luck against vastly superior odds. Consequently the fantasy battles of MEPBM are actually less fantastical than those of Real Life. More or less revelation of the combat figures would do nothing to improve this, a random element, as in the personal challenge algorithm, would.
···
At 10:52 PM 26-08-01, you wrote:
RD: Yes, the more stats you can hide the better. Fog of war and all that.
I HATE the combat calculator which will, in advance, work out the results
of any battle before it takes place.Battle is NOT a matter of pure mathematics. Things like morale, timing,
leadership all play a part. Battle is NOT an exact science - Sun Tzu wrote
of the "Art of War" not the science of war.
And wouldn't it be great to have something- ANYTHING- besides heavy cav
and heavy inf in everyone's armies?! Kind of a shame that the troop
type isn't dependent upon the type of weapons and armor with which
they're equipped. For instance, wood only would equal archers; leather
armor and bronze weapons = men-at-arms; bronze armor and bronze weapons
= light infantry; steel armor and steel weapons = heavy infantry;
leather, mounts, and bronze armor/weapons = light cav; and leather,
mounts, and steel armor/weapons = heavy cav. Heck, two new classes
could be created for mithril weapons & armor-- Paladins (or something)
for foot soldiers, and Knights if they have mounts, leather, and maybe
even some steel for the barding! Just dreaming-- I KNOW that the code
can't be changed and that 90% of you would name me heretic! Sorry, I
just get kinda sick of the "recruit only heavy inf/cav" policy that
everyone must (for the team's sake, of course) use-- makes me wonder why
recruit orders even exist for other troop types! ;>
Pat
Aaruman wrote:
···
My vote... Keep it hidden. In fact, I'd like to see a little more randomness put in
to some aspects. For example, you can challenge someone with 3 to 1 odds and still
lose (I know... I lost Elrond that way). However, the army combats seem to be
extremely predictable (if you know the info for both sides). It would give the game
more mystery if the army combats had a (small) random aspect as well.Mike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
>Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
>
>
>Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats or
>not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of fortifications
>etc?
>
>ClintMiddle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Sniperoo....
everyone must (for the team's sake, of course) use-- makes me wonder why
recruit orders even exist for other troop types! ;>Pat
Ok! Here's my 2 cents on this...
1) MAA: somewhat cheap for threatening, protection against emissaries,
additional fodder for the conjure hordes spell (Which is really a pretty
cool spell...)
2) LI: Ahem. I struggle with this one. HOWEVER, they, on their face, as long
as they are not being fed, are cheaper than HI on a strict number to number
basis. I suppose if you are really going nuts in terrain they favor, these
guys MAY be worth it. Doubtful as every time you recruit 100 LI, I recruit
100 HI. Blech.
3) Archers: extremely useful. I love these guys. Don't just recruit them,
but they are valuble for tossing into a seperate army. Why? Couple of
reasons. a) in a true mixed force (more than one friendly army) they can get
nifty odds against enemy troops. b) they seem to do quite well against
popcenters when supported by defensive magic. c) pretty decent OFFENSE but
the defense bites.
4) HI: Duh. These guys rock.
5) LCav: You don't always have as much leather as you'd like. Needless to
say, they are quick and relatively cheap.
6) HC: a-Duh. These guys roll!
However, Pat, I basically agree with you. Not a LOT of use for anything
other than HI and HC.
Clint,
Keep the exact stats hidden. it is better that way
and it keeps the old-timers guessing!
John Seals
···
--- Aaruman <aaruman@orions.net> wrote:
My vote... Keep it hidden. In fact, I'd like to see
a little more randomness put in
to some aspects. For example, you can challenge
someone with 3 to 1 odds and still
lose (I know... I lost Elrond that way). However,
the army combats seem to be
extremely predictable (if you know the info for both
sides). It would give the game
more mystery if the army combats had a (small)
random aspect as well.Mike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Middle Earth PBM Games
[mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
>Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
>
>
>Got a small query - do players like the hidden
aspect of the game stats or
>not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics,
effects of fortifications
>etc?
>
>Clint
=====
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--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@l...> wrote:
2) LI: Ahem. I struggle with this one. HOWEVER, they, on their face,
as long
as they are not being fed, are cheaper than HI on a strict number to
number
basis. I suppose if you are really going nuts in terrain they favor,
these
guys MAY be worth it. Doubtful as every time you recruit 100 LI, I
recruit
100 HI. Blech.
Exactly. They're just as expensive as HI on a gold for strength
bonus, and downright wasteful of anything except gold - metals,
leather, food, and orders. Their only possible advantage over HI is
that you can support twice the number of troops for the same gold
investment, though they'll still have the same strength. So they can
help if you're dirt poor but need an army large enough to not get
overrun as it tries to get into a fight. For pure threat forces men
at arms are better.
5) LCav: You don't always have as much leather as you'd like.
Needless to
say, they are quick and relatively cheap.
Recruiting LC to save leather is a waste.
For every 16 strength points of LC, you spend two mounts and two
leather.
For every 16 strength points of HC, you spend one mount and two
leather.
So instead of recruiting 400 LC, recruit 200 HC. They'll fight just
as well and save you 200 mounts. (And when was the last time you had
mounts to waste, but couldn't use them because you didn't have the
leather?)
Their only possible use is a relatively cheap but mobile threat force.
Anything else, and you're better off with HC. Even in that situation
you'd have to get a lot of use out of that saved gold before I'd
consider it worth the wasted mounts.
The bottom line is that the heavy troops are the best at fighting.
Unless you don't think you need your armies to fight well, you're best
off with the heavies.
-Peter
And wouldn't it be great to have something- ANYTHING- besides heavy cav
and heavy inf in everyone's armies?! Kind of a shame that the troop
type isn't dependent upon the type of weapons and armor with which
they're equipped. For instance, wood only would equal archers; leather
armor and bronze weapons = men-at-arms; bronze armor and bronze weapons
= light infantry; steel armor and steel weapons = heavy infantry;
leather, mounts, and bronze armor/weapons = light cav; and leather,
mounts, and steel armor/weapons = heavy cav. Heck, two new classes
could be created for mithril weapons & armor-- Paladins (or something)
for foot soldiers, and Knights if they have mounts, leather, and maybe
even some steel for the barding! Just dreaming-- I KNOW that the code
can't be changed and that 90% of you would name me heretic! Sorry, I
just get kinda sick of the "recruit only heavy inf/cav" policy that
everyone must (for the team's sake, of course) use-- makes me wonder why
recruit orders even exist for other troop types! ;>Pat
RD: One way of making the unused troop types more useful would be to have
rules which more accurately refIected their historical performance in
different terrain. The whole point of having a variety of troops types in
an army is so that it can fight in any terrain.
For example, hc have only one tactic, charge, which realistically is useless
in mountains, marsh and forest. Even heavy infantry is hampered by such
terrain. The Romans invariably used light auxiliary troops to clear such
terrain before following through with heavy-armed legions. Whole legions
were wiped out by German light troops in the Teutoburger Wald, and some of
Julius Ceasar's cohorts were chopped up by Briton chariots charging out of
ambush.
Therefore, the solution is, to amend the program so that troop performance
is substantially influenced by terrain. Already the program has preferred
terrain for different races, so why cannot this be applied to troop types?
More drastically and less likely, I would abolish all existing troops types,
and make the troop types dependant on race, as described by Tolkien. But
that's never going to happen under the present regime.
Richard.
Aaruman wrote:
>
> My vote... Keep it hidden. In fact, I'd like to see a little
more randomness put in
> to some aspects. For example, you can challenge someone with 3 to 1 odds
and still
> lose (I know... I lost Elrond that way). However, the army combats seem
to be
> extremely predictable (if you know the info for both sides). It would
give the game
> more mystery if the army combats had a (small) random aspect as well.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
> >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:27 PM
> >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
> >
> >
> >Got a small query - do players like the hidden aspect of the game stats
or
> >not? Eg the exact bonus for the combat tactics, effects of
fortifications
> >etc?
> >
> >Clint
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick & Stacey McDougall" <psmcdoug@home.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
> >-----Original Message-----
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
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Isn't the performance of the different troop types reflected to some extent
in the program now? I have seen comments like "the mountainous terrain
restricted the movement of you cavalry" - are we sure that some of these
'anomalous' combat results aren't partially caused by the "hidden" (but
logical) impact of terrain on troop types?
Tony
···
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 28 August 2001 15:22
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Middle Earth
RD: One way of making the unused troop types more useful would be to have
rules which more accurately refIected their historical performance in
different terrain. The whole point of having a variety of troops types in
an army is so that it can fight in any terrain.For example, hc have only one tactic, charge, which realistically is
useless
in mountains, marsh and forest. Even heavy infantry is hampered by such
terrain. The Romans invariably used light auxiliary troops to clear such
terrain before following through with heavy-armed legions. Whole legions
were wiped out by German light troops in the Teutoburger Wald, and some of
Julius Ceasar's cohorts were chopped up by Briton chariots charging out of
ambush.Therefore, the solution is, to amend the program so that troop performance
is substantially influenced by terrain. Already the program has preferred
terrain for different races, so why cannot this be applied to troop types?