Naval Combat in Middle Earth

RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

   With enthusiasm I bring to the attention of the membership the book by
Gilmartin "Gunpowder and Galleys". The author discusses, compares and
contrasts two rival naval systems during the transitional 1500s. These
systems were the traditional ored galley (venice and the Ottomans) and
the sailing ship (Portugal and England).

Little known is that ored galleys frequently defeated sailing ships
during the transitional period. One of the more interesting sections
detailed the defeat of the Portugese East Indes fleet in the Red Sea by
Ottoman galleys.

As might be expected, the Ottoman naval service is covered in some depth.
  Its strategy, tactics and operational capabilities. As I was reading
about Ottoman naval operations, I realized the Ottoman activity could be
replicated in a wargame. In fact, it had been simulated in Middle Earth!

Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.

Now, this was over a decade ago. As it happened there was one heck of a
naval war going on in my current game. Both Elves and both Gondors
versus the QA, Harad and the Corsairs. So, I ordered a fleet to siege a
pop center. Presto! Pop center sieged. I ordered my fleets through 2 to
4 hexes of blue water. Presto! Corsairs outmanuvered and defeated.

Ha! I say to myself. Those sly devils Stassun and Feilds are separating
the sheep from the goats. The mentally flexible from the inflexible.
The trusting from the experimenter. That sorting process is still going
on.

Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.

So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
Ed Mills

···

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Not looking to get involved in any arguments, just add to the
fundamental knowledge base ...

Ed's fundamental point is right. You _can_ sail through non-coastal
hexes even if you aren't the CO or NE (or proud owner of a "Moves in
Open Seas..." artifact). However, the _risk_ of a "negative" encounter
(such as Sea Creatures) is dramatically higher.

I thought all long-time players knew this (where "long-time" is defined
as people who've been playing substantially longer than me! :slight_smile: ).

Hth.

b

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

  With enthusiasm I bring to the attention of the membership the book by
Gilmartin "Gunpowder and Galleys". The author discusses, compares and
contrasts two rival naval systems during the transitional 1500s. These
systems were the traditional ored galley (venice and the Ottomans) and
the sailing ship (Portugal and England).

Little known is that ored galleys frequently defeated sailing ships
during the transitional period. One of the more interesting sections
detailed the defeat of the Portugese East Indes fleet in the Red Sea by
Ottoman galleys.

As might be expected, the Ottoman naval service is covered in some depth.
Its strategy, tactics and operational capabilities. As I was reading
about Ottoman naval operations, I realized the Ottoman activity could be
replicated in a wargame. In fact, it had been simulated in Middle Earth!

Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.

Now, this was over a decade ago. As it happened there was one heck of a
naval war going on in my current game. Both Elves and both Gondors
versus the QA, Harad and the Corsairs. So, I ordered a fleet to siege a
pop center. Presto! Pop center sieged. I ordered my fleets through 2 to
4 hexes of blue water. Presto! Corsairs outmanuvered and defeated.

Ha! I say to myself. Those sly devils Stassun and Feilds are separating
the sheep from the goats. The mentally flexible from the inflexible.
The trusting from the experimenter. That sorting process is still going
on.

Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.

So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
Ed Mills

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.

Just one thing.... As far as I know, one thing that deferentiated Spain and Portugal from ottomans and italian city-states was the caravel. In that i mean that Portugal and spain were the first to develop the technology of the caravel. Sure the Vikings reached America, but it wasnt as safe as in the 1500's. Therefore, venicians trirremes had to follow coast and ran a huge gamble to lose sight of land for extended periods of time. Thats exactly PBM. U can go to the high sea, but it's a risk. I've done it several times with GS, and lost at the most 10 warships in like 4 or 5 maneuvers such as that.

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ovatha Easterling
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 10:12 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

  RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

     With enthusiasm I bring to the attention of the membership the book by
  Gilmartin "Gunpowder and Galleys". The author discusses, compares and
  contrasts two rival naval systems during the transitional 1500s. These
  systems were the traditional ored galley (venice and the Ottomans) and
  the sailing ship (Portugal and England).

  Little known is that ored galleys frequently defeated sailing ships
  during the transitional period. One of the more interesting sections
  detailed the defeat of the Portugese East Indes fleet in the Red Sea by
  Ottoman galleys.

  As might be expected, the Ottoman naval service is covered in some depth.
    Its strategy, tactics and operational capabilities. As I was reading
  about Ottoman naval operations, I realized the Ottoman activity could be
  replicated in a wargame. In fact, it had been simulated in Middle Earth!

  Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
  back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
  exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
  (except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
  Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.

  Now, this was over a decade ago. As it happened there was one heck of a
  naval war going on in my current game. Both Elves and both Gondors
  versus the QA, Harad and the Corsairs. So, I ordered a fleet to siege a
  pop center. Presto! Pop center sieged. I ordered my fleets through 2 to
  4 hexes of blue water. Presto! Corsairs outmanuvered and defeated.

  Ha! I say to myself. Those sly devils Stassun and Feilds are separating
  the sheep from the goats. The mentally flexible from the inflexible.
  The trusting from the experimenter. That sorting process is still going
  on.

  Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
  players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
  Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
  him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
  would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
  said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
  Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.

  So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
  are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
  flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
  Ed Mills

  _________________________________________________________________
  Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
  http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Specially since the rulebook doesnt, at any point, forbid open seas movement. It states, clearly, that u have a risk of meeting pirates/monsters. From that, veterans teach newbies that u shoudnt do it, and that's that. So people don't do it....

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Benjamin M. Shushan
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 10:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

  Not looking to get involved in any arguments, just add to the
  fundamental knowledge base ...

  Ed's fundamental point is right. You _can_ sail through non-coastal
  hexes even if you aren't the CO or NE (or proud owner of a "Moves in
  Open Seas..." artifact). However, the _risk_ of a "negative" encounter
  (such as Sea Creatures) is dramatically higher.

  I thought all long-time players knew this (where "long-time" is defined
  as people who've been playing substantially longer than me! :slight_smile: ).

  Hth.

  b

  Ovatha Easterling wrote:

  >RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth
  >
  > With enthusiasm I bring to the attention of the membership the book by
  >Gilmartin "Gunpowder and Galleys". The author discusses, compares and
  >contrasts two rival naval systems during the transitional 1500s. These
  >systems were the traditional ored galley (venice and the Ottomans) and
  >the sailing ship (Portugal and England).
  >
  >Little known is that ored galleys frequently defeated sailing ships
  >during the transitional period. One of the more interesting sections
  >detailed the defeat of the Portugese East Indes fleet in the Red Sea by
  >Ottoman galleys.
  >
  >As might be expected, the Ottoman naval service is covered in some depth.
  > Its strategy, tactics and operational capabilities. As I was reading
  >about Ottoman naval operations, I realized the Ottoman activity could be
  >replicated in a wargame. In fact, it had been simulated in Middle Earth!
  >
  >Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
  >back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
  >exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
  >(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
  >Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.
  >
  >Now, this was over a decade ago. As it happened there was one heck of a
  >naval war going on in my current game. Both Elves and both Gondors
  >versus the QA, Harad and the Corsairs. So, I ordered a fleet to siege a
  >pop center. Presto! Pop center sieged. I ordered my fleets through 2 to
  >4 hexes of blue water. Presto! Corsairs outmanuvered and defeated.
  >
  >Ha! I say to myself. Those sly devils Stassun and Feilds are separating
  >the sheep from the goats. The mentally flexible from the inflexible.
  >The trusting from the experimenter. That sorting process is still going
  >on.
  >
  >Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
  >players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
  >Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
  >him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
  >would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
  >said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
  >Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.
  >
  >So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
  >are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
  >flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
  >Ed Mills
  >
  >_________________________________________________________________
  >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
  >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  >To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  >Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  >
  >Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What's this all about Ed? The only bit on navies that I could glean from
the last week or so is as follows:

1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and
unrewarding compared with army rules.

and a reply:

Exactly. Naval warfare is my favourite thing about a number of
wargames - but the MPEBM naval rules are woefullly inadequate. This is
not the place to go into alternatives, but a glance at any wargame
involving ships will provide a plethora of ideas.

Where are these masses of which you speak who claim it's illegal to sail
into the dark blue hexes? You had one bad experience with an illiterate
chap (the rules state quite obviously to even newbies that ships sail in
"water" and that "open seas" are more "dangerous", as Ben notes) a year or
so ago and out of the blue you see the hordes clamouring for naval changes
based on *their* ignorance? Shake my head for me, I'd prefer the polical
garbage to this kind of tripe.

Brad

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin M. Shushan" <bshushan@earthlink.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

Not looking to get involved in any arguments, just add to the
fundamental knowledge base ...

Ed's fundamental point is right. You _can_ sail through non-coastal
hexes even if you aren't the CO or NE (or proud owner of a "Moves in
Open Seas..." artifact). However, the _risk_ of a "negative" encounter
(such as Sea Creatures) is dramatically higher.

I thought all long-time players knew this (where "long-time" is defined
as people who've been playing substantially longer than me! :slight_smile: ).

Hth.

b

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

>Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
>players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
>Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
>him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
>would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
>said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
>Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.
>
>So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
>are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
>flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
>Ed Mills
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's

FREE!

>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

Yeah, I've always moved in open seas and NEVER met anyone who thought you "couldn't" do it. The rules don't even remotely imply that you can't. Must be a 1650-player thing.

Russ, 2950 Player

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Rodrigo Maia
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

    Specially since the rulebook doesnt, at any point, forbid open seas movement. It states, clearly, that u have a risk of meeting pirates/monsters. From that, veterans teach newbies that u shoudnt do it, and that's that. So people don't do it....

          Rodrigo Maia
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Benjamin M. Shushan
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 10:54 PM
    Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth

    Not looking to get involved in any arguments, just add to the
    fundamental knowledge base ...

    Ed's fundamental point is right. You _can_ sail through non-coastal
    hexes even if you aren't the CO or NE (or proud owner of a "Moves in
    Open Seas..." artifact). However, the _risk_ of a "negative" encounter
    (such as Sea Creatures) is dramatically higher.

    I thought all long-time players knew this (where "long-time" is defined
    as people who've been playing substantially longer than me! :slight_smile: ).

    Hth.

    b

    Ovatha Easterling wrote:

    >RE: Naval Combat in Middle Earth
    >
    > With enthusiasm I bring to the attention of the membership the book by
    >Gilmartin "Gunpowder and Galleys". The author discusses, compares and
    >contrasts two rival naval systems during the transitional 1500s. These
    >systems were the traditional ored galley (venice and the Ottomans) and
    >the sailing ship (Portugal and England).
    >
    >Little known is that ored galleys frequently defeated sailing ships
    >during the transitional period. One of the more interesting sections
    >detailed the defeat of the Portugese East Indes fleet in the Red Sea by
    >Ottoman galleys.
    >
    >As might be expected, the Ottoman naval service is covered in some depth.
    > Its strategy, tactics and operational capabilities. As I was reading
    >about Ottoman naval operations, I realized the Ottoman activity could be
    >replicated in a wargame. In fact, it had been simulated in Middle Earth!
    >
    >Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
    >back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
    >exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
    >(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
    >Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.
    >
    >Now, this was over a decade ago. As it happened there was one heck of a
    >naval war going on in my current game. Both Elves and both Gondors
    >versus the QA, Harad and the Corsairs. So, I ordered a fleet to siege a
    >pop center. Presto! Pop center sieged. I ordered my fleets through 2 to
    >4 hexes of blue water. Presto! Corsairs outmanuvered and defeated.
    >
    >Ha! I say to myself. Those sly devils Stassun and Feilds are separating
    >the sheep from the goats. The mentally flexible from the inflexible.
    >The trusting from the experimenter. That sorting process is still going
    >on.
    >
    >Not a year and one-half ago, I was in a game with one of the top British
    >players. Scores high, he does, in the PRS. His SG fleet was coasting to
    >Corsair territory. Very predictable, with interception certain. I urged
    >him to "cut the angle" by sailing through two blue seas hexes. This
    >would avoid the blocking force. He absolutely refused to beieve me. He
    >said it was impossible and quoted chapter and verse out of the rulebook.
    >Sailed on to destiny and only a few hundred marines survived drowning.
    >
    >So, Gentlemen, I urge you to consider the possibility the game's creators
    >are not "overarchingly stupid" but they are actually testing your mental
    >flexibility---and you might be found wanting.
    >Ed Mills
    >
    >_________________________________________________________________
    >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
    >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
    >To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
    >Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
    To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
    Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
     
    Yahoo! Groups Links

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ujgst. Whad joo meen?

unnnnnnnnnnnanananaaaaa

Umflok? Nod nyce!

Phhhlllllissss!!!

Bradurk 1650

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net

Must be a 1650-player thing.

Russ, 2950 Player

In MEPBM terms, the whole Med is "coastal hexes" -- no big huge
storms and waves, no long sea voyages.

The dark blue hexes in ME are much more like the Atlantic Ocean
than the Med.

Tony Z

···

On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 11:08:52PM -0200, Rodrigo Maia wrote:

Run to the rulebook and brush up on shiphandling. Hum, yes, right. Run
back to Gilmartin's book. Hum, yes right. Now there were two glaring
exceptions. It appeared that ME fleets could not siege pop centers or
(except for Noldo magic and the Corsairs) sail into blue sea hexes. The
Ottomans routinely did both with their galley fleets.

--
Economics is not a zero-sum game, and the belief that
it is is at the root of all kinds of wickedness and nonsense.
--Firebug

LOL, I wondered who would respond. Should have known. You should have played it "Caveman Lawyer from SNL" style.

"Ladies and Gentleman, I am just a caveman and a 1650-player. I do not understand your modern wargames. Your "rulebooks" and "turnsheets" frighten and confuse me! The only games I knew as a young cavechild involved poking dead things with a stick. I do not fit in with your so-called "modern society" . . . ."

Russ

  >
  >Must be a 1650-player thing.
  >
  >
  > Russ, 2950 Player

  Ujgst. Whad joo meen?

  unnnnnnnnnnnanananaaaaa

  Umflok? Nod nyce!

  Phhhlllllissss!!!

  Bradurk 1650

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net
             
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]