Originally posted by Nimdraug
Stand, just play Gunboat.
…
I no longer play anything but Gunboat; but BG (i.e., before Gunboat) I had played my share of Neutrals. When I did so, I chose alignment based on one and only one consideration: game balance.
I knew I liked you Nimdraug! Now if only I knew if it’s you kicking my ass, or working along side me in GB14! 
I’d also like to add this to what I said earlier. If I’m speaking to someone as myself, I don’t want to have to lie. PERIOD. If, however, I’m communicating with someone “in character”, all bets are off. I’d still rather not outright lie, but disinformation used in a wargame is obviously a valid tactic. Depends on which character I’m portraying, too, I suppose. Huh, that Nazgul lied to me, who’d of figured…? If you are deadset against lying, EVER, then by all means, play that way. It is a game, after all.
Don
Originally posted by 88 Noldo
…if you intend to decieve then the spin and precise wording becomes just a means to the end.
Exactly again. If your end is to make new friends and be liked by everyone you play with, you’ll likely find your greatest success in Gunboat…playing alone. If your ends are to maximize the strategic potential of your nation when you eventually do move, then you’ll have to convince your target that they are NOT a target, or tell the truth: “I’ll be invading you in 2 turns. It’s been fun talking to you.” Or stop/don’t talk at all. When a neutral isn’t or stops talking, it means he’s going against you. So, the only way to move at the time of your choosing to the best effect possible, is to talk to your enemy such that he’s convinced that either he isn’t your enemy or at least isn’t yet…
So, every game it’s “He never even talked to us once! He’s a ringer!” or “He lied to us while he was preparing to attack!” or whatever.
If you’re relatively new, the Corsairs in 1650 are likely your best options. Be wary of an attack by the Harad and you’ll have a good amount of security. Rhudaur has to go early, Duns will be destroyed by the FP if the NW gets cleaned up before they move, Harad has potential but may be too big to maintain in the face of trouble, Easterlings have logistic issues that make it difficult for newer players.
Enjoy.
In the past I’ve offered a 12v12 game with no Neutrals (ie Cor/Dun FP, Rhu/Har DS). I’d be happy to waive the additional fee that we normally charge just to see if this would be an interesting format for players that don’t want to play Gunboat (or two nations) but don’t enjoy the Neutral aspect of the game.
Feedback on this welcome.
Clint (GM)
Don’t worry about getting Rhud. 95% of the time Player ends up with it anyway. :>) The stand should play any of them lie your a$%#ss off and have fun. Send an eamail addressed to both sides saying you will be lieing 50% of the time . Than if someone claims your a liar you can claim that not to be a liar you had to lie 50% of the time. :>)
nick
Dave, thanks for your kind words. I can assure you I am kicking no one’s rear end in GB 14. My opening gambit failed miserably and I’m limping along on one and one-third nations.
But I will say no more about that – cutting too close to the edge of the no communication rule.
I’m enjoying the game despite my lackluster performance. And that, I think, is a big part of the fun of Gunboat: you can experiment, fail and still answer only to yourself. In some standard games I’ve played, players were treated to abuse and condescension for screwing up army or character orders and “ruining” the team’s chances of succeeding. Doesn’t happen in Gunboat.
It has become increasingly apparent to me that large numbers of newbies ahould not be placed in a game with neutrals. Those folks are fragile and can’t stand much bad news.
In the old days I exploited that fragility by deliberately pounding on newbies. Perhaps some long term players were lost because of that.
Regarding neutrals: Mr. Newbie “A” has an excellent rapport with the Duns and he assures Newbies “B”, “C” and “D” that things are going well. Lo, the Duns make a blitz on “A” and the man quits and causes a cascade of drops among the newbies. Now the newbie could treat it as a learning experience and benefit from it, but few have that attitude.
howard johnson is right! if any perchance know the saying. well said noldo
I was one of the ones having a “spit” at a neutral. I don’t mind them lying or cheating but when they get caught red handed I dont expect them to sit and cry about how they are being treated unfairly by the nations that caught them. If you get caught with your hand in the “cookie jar” at least be good enough to say “fair cop”. I don’t like it when they then go crying to the remaining neutrals about how unfair a certian group of an alliance is about attacking them, especially when they have downgraded a nation , transferred a MT and sent gold to the enemy. You get caught at least be big enough to admit to your actions. Don’t go bleating about being unprovokedly (is this a real word?) attacked.
Regards Herman (Harad Game 30, this means YOU!!) 
<<Mind you, this doesn’t even address the likely very important “How often do all 5 neuts do that?” and as the answer to that question is likely very low, the next extremely relevant question is “Why?”. >>
-Russ
And then there’s the Corsair player from some years ago that joined the already-winning side in the late game based on a “competition” for “whichever side sends the MOST emails” even though he did not have time to answer them. It was like competing in a “talk to a wall contest”. It’s VERY frustrating when you offer a guy anything he wants and talk to him as much as possible with as many members of your team as possible yet he’s determined to take the cakewalk.
Russ
Should try to take him down on principal. Even agree with the enemy to hold a “truce” for 3-4 turns while you divide their nation.
I know it is unrealistic but it would be nice to see.
Regards Herman
If that’s an invite Russ, call on me when your thinking of starting a new game.
Folks,
A side bar in line with the topic of neutrals:
I don’t understand the current distaste for the surprise reversed. If a neutral isn’t talking to me or I suspect foul play, I’ve got no qualms about jumping him first. Heck, I’ve got no qualms about jumping him first even if he just sent me 30,000 gold. To my mind, neutrality does not imply immunity. Just ask Nick about past plans for Harad when I was playing South Gondor…
My point is, the knife goes both ways. Have you ever considered that neutrals can be jumped as well? It is possible and I have jumped neutrals in the past. Dont let all that allegiance stuff go to your head.
Mike, crippler of Harad and slayer of Easterlings
P.S. The easy way for South Gondor to gaurantee that she wont be jumped by a Harad/Corsair combo is to kill one of them first.
<<If that’s an invite Russ, call on me when your thinking of starting a new game.>>
Will do whenever we finish that Crackhead Nick Cody and his cohorts in 225! 
Russ
Originally posted by Clint
[b]In the past I’ve offered a 12v12 game with no Neutrals (ie Cor/Dun FP, Rhu/Har DS). I’d be happy to waive the additional fee that we normally charge just to see if this would be an interesting format for players that don’t want to play Gunboat (or two nations) but don’t enjoy the Neutral aspect of the game.Feedback on this welcome.
Clint (GM) [/b]
I’d be interested in such a game . . . Simon.
Clint,
This is a good option I would consider. Allows those of us that do not have a grudge team, or still like to meet and play with new/unknown players, that chance to play without the “neutral factor”.
DBP III
I have been following this thread, but have been unable to post. From reading the various thoughts it seems to me that some people just want everything to be predictable, while others don’t seem to understand the concept of the Neutral Nation players main priority is to look out for his nation by any means at his disposal, but most importantly by keeping the aligned nations off his back by playing them off against each other.
I have never played a neutral. I prefer to be fish or fowl, but I respect that any neutral I am in a game with has his own agenda and he is not under any obligation to provide me with information or to cooperate with me at all. He is infact free to lie to me at will. Of course that lying will breed distrust and possible enmity within the game, but again his first priority is the well being of his nation not being my friend or ally. Suggestions that a neutral was already in the camp of one side came up at the end of game 17. This was suspected because information provided to the ones who made the suggestion by this neutral was not they later found out correct. He reported armies at locations and based on those locations surmised that they belonged to particular nations. He gave them that information which they took as accurate. When those same troops showed up at another distant location they assumed he lied to them and that those troops could only have been sent to their destination because we knew we were safe from attack from this neutral and had left his front ungaurded. Both assumptions were wrong as we had 3 armies covering that approach but they were positioned to not show on turn maps and since no one had sent scouts to ascertain the truth they were surprised. The bottom line however was that as a neutral he had no obligation to feed them wholly accurate information at all.
When dealing with neutrals I offer exchange of information. I generally will give as accurate information as I can to build trust, but a neutral exchanging information with you is not the same as an ally. He may be exchanging information with the other side as well as is his right and duty as a ruler to get the most accurate picture he can before committing his subjects to war. I especially give accurate information where it is verifiable by other means, but that does not mean I give all that I know to an undeclared neutral, and I always try to present it in the best light possible for my team. It is the challenge for the neutral to sift fact from spin.
More power to the crafty neutral I say.
Brad
I would be interested in a 2950 game with pre-aligned neutrals.
Did Harly offer a 12 vs 12 with +10 to one character for no charge a couple of months back?
I would like to again point out that no one should ever try and recruit me when I play a neutral. I suck.