Why all the hostility towards neutrals that don’t tell their newly chosen enemy ahead of time? I’m thinking of playing a neutral, but don’t understand why I have to be hated for playing a hobby well???
Thanks for your time.
Difference appears to be when the neutral outright lies to their chosen victim. We’re not talking by carrier pigeon here, it’s real humans discussing things, so out and out lies get taken as, frankly, out and out lies by the person and not necessarily as relations between nations.
Why wouldn’t your enemy hate you. You chose against them. But it should be kept in that games context and only that game. I expect a newt whose going against me to lie. I’ve called people morons in one game while praising their brilliance in another game at the same time.
Not all is always what it appears. Alot of talk on forum is BS. Some is not. I’ve sent private emails when things got heavy asking if this is getting to hot. Not one person ever said backoff.
Usually if a person doesn’t respond on the forum they tend to be left alone. Of course if a newt goes against us and we beat him up he’ll have to live with my gloating :>). Of course if he beats us up than I just have to liston to his gloating. :>(
Seriously though the only thing I think newts need to watch out for is ganging up early together. 4 or 5 newts going one way early (esp. a harad corsair combo) can end a good game early.
So the best way to avoid being called a lier is not to lie if that would bother you. So send an email to both sides saying you’ll know when I declare,period , end of conversation. You won’t get much info from either side but they can’t call you a liar. We’ll call you lots of other things but not a liar :>)
nick
I’ll weigh in on this as I’m a pick-up undeclared neutral in Game 31 (1650). Comments below focused on 1650.
What is the best role for a neutral? what do they place declaration decsions upon? How do you court them?
GAME BALANCE
I believe the best reason to declare is to balance a particular game. Typically (there are always lots of exceptions), Rhu should join DS very early to help the WK survive and to balance the NW. Duns should join FP to help the FP with the character war mid-to-late game. Easterlings really can flip either way depending on their observation of how the game is going, and hopefully Corsairs and Harad go one-each to FP/DS. Add to this that neutral nations are not designed to be early declaration nations, and you can see why most neutrals really want to wait a while before they declare.
GOOD TEAMWORK
Do not underestimate the allure of a great team to the undeclared neutral. If one team is really communicating well with the neutral (and then presumably with each other), and the other team is not, advantage goes to the communication savvy team.
GREED
In the old GSI days, most neutral declarations were bought. Artifacts, gold, timber, backups, etc., were all promised to undeclared neutrals. The game & player base have matured significantly since then. This does not seem to be a primary motivating factor in most people’s gameplay these days.
FUN
This is individual - i.e. as an allegiance courting a neutral, you have to figure out what it is that they find fun, and can you provide that? Do they like challenge? Or an easy victory? Do they want key responsibilities on the team? Can you provide that? If you can figure out a player’s source of fun in the game and your allegiance can provide a big heaping portion of it, you’re likely going to be able to recruit them. After all, we all play MEPBM because we find derive enjoyment from it.
Finally, this series of posts was started by a post claiming that a neutral not talking to the two allegiances honestly or forthrightly was ok, because it’s “playing a hobby well”. Lying to your potential opponents might be a strategy if you never expect any of those actual human beings to be on a team with you in the future (maybe because you think teams don’t matter?). But having played for 12 years now, I’m constantly finding myself on a new team with people that used to be opponents. Irregardless of personal ethics (where I strongly believe in honesty), I don’t think there’s any margin in lying in this game.
So I take a very straightforward approach: tell the truth.
Dave
Yes, how odd. Deception in a war game. First time I’ve experienced it. lol Keeping an eye on the neutral’s is your responsibility. If your side get’s caught with your skirt’s down… Well then ya got it coming. 
Right Rob, deception is bad. (tounge in cheek). We should ignore the advice of Sun Tzu, Vegetius, Saxe, Aeneas Tacticus, Onasander and the examples of Generals Montgomery, Hannibal, etc. Why practice the “Art” of war when you can strike noble poses? It is outrageous that all U. S. and Soviet operations must contain a deception plan, per doctrine.
Originally posted by DaveHolt
GAME BALANCE
I believe the best reason to declare is to balance a particular game. Typically (there are always lots of exceptions), Rhu should join DS very early to help the WK survive and to balance the NW. Duns should join FP to help the FP with the character war mid-to-late game. Easterlings really can flip either way depending on their observation of how the game is going, and hopefully Corsairs and Harad go one-each to FP/DS. Add to this that neutral nations are not designed to be early declaration nations, and you can see why most neutrals really want to wait a while before they declare.
Hogwash (nothing personal). 1) T’is best to avoid using words like “should” when speaking of the behavior of others. 2) Rhudaur most certainly is designed as an early declaration nation. If they don’t declare early, they’re declaring FP by proxy. Any Rhudaur that doesn’t see that will learn that within a few weeks.
Also despise the regional neutral splits. Every time I’m a neutral, I beg my regional fellow neut to disregard this “game balancing” BS that will inevitably get tossed at us both. Why bother playing the Corsairs if you’re guaranteed a staid old war of attrition in the South? Why get yourself simply cancelled out? “We can work together and have a awesome impact on the game, or we can simply fall into the rut of mediocrity and null each other out so the greater world can continue their war as if we never existed at all.” is the type of idea I attempt to express as a neutral recruiting other neutrals…never works, but I try…
Brad
Brad,
It’s my opinion that neutrals should strongly consider game balance when declaring. why? well, we’re all paying (now even higher) game fees every 2 weeks to get to the point where the neutrals declare. If what was a relatively even game becomes extremely lopsided because all the neutrals flip to one side, that seems like a pretty sorry outcome for all 25 people. Is there no responsibility on the part of the neutral nation for the impact of their actions? hogwash. Of course there is. Are there exceptions to generalizations (i.e. a suggestion in this case preceded by “should”)? definitely.
If you don’t like the idea of declaring to help balance things, don’t. But I’ll put my money where my mouth is and I will declare in game 31 based largely upon balance. One thing that makes it easy to do so is that both teams appear to be well organized and effective teams. Thus the “fun” factor appears to be there for both choices.
I do agree with you that Rhu not declaring DS early is an effective declaration for FP, so your critique of the tail end of my Balance paragraph is correct and better states things than I did.
And to people that think it’s ok to lie: just be prepared to accept the consequences. That was my point on that issue.
Dave
Sometimes it’s a worthy cause to balance things, other times one side simply deserves your allegiance more (regardless of the other neutrals) and on some rare occasions, some teams make every effort to give you the impression they deserve, want almost, to be put out of their misery. Have declared for all those reasons and others.
The problem with stating how you’re going to declare beforehand is that people are thusly going to expect you to act as you’ve stated. If all the other 4 neutrals join the same side next turn, then you’ll be assumed an enemy of that side immediately. If one side has 1 neut and knows that 2 others are joining them, they might very well attack you now (I’d vote for it, don’t worry, not in that one…), presuming, as people are wont to do, that you will become their enemy. They’ve got 3 neuts, another is down, what do they care about the last one? Heck, maybe some of the secret neutrals take part in your dismemberment…
I’d highly recommend neither lying nor making committments regarding one’s own behaviour as a neutral. Talk to all, promise nothing, and make your move when you decide to make it. And if you’re Rhudaur…make it fast!
Brad
Originally posted by DaveHolt
If what was a relatively even game becomes extremely lopsided because all the neutrals flip to one side
Change is good. Anyone watch survivor? Just when they’re starting to get complacent, the dude switches things around. A whole new game. They go into it expecting to get screwed with every turn. Same with the 10x10 game. I think this thread was started not because the guy thought it wasn’t fair to be disliked for being a liar, but because neutrals get dissed left right and centre simply for being neutral… I know, happens to me all the time! The game starts, the early game gambits go or don’t go, the teams get together, and very soon, neutrals start doing things. Doesn’t matter what neutral did what, there’s a high probability that someone’s going to bitch and whine about it. Then other’s will chime in and tell them to get over it, then the neutral chimes in and there are accusations and denials and name calling and on and on and on…heck, it happens each and every game, been there, done that, had it done to me and expect it again sometime soon.
My only message to those concerned about the long term consequences of such behavior: don’t worry. Once royally messed with an allegiance as a neut and then turned the tables, this was after pop switches, arty hand overs, etc. The guys I was working with vowed some unspeakable things to me. Hey, it was an FA game and us neutrals decided to go 3rd allegiance, so I was mixing it up beforehand, figured to get as many non-neutrals unprepared for what we were doing as possible…and it almost worked. These guys and I have since been in touch and get along quite nicely. Water under the bridge. See, it’s just a game!
Mind you, this doesn’t even address the likely very important “How often do all 5 neuts do that?” and as the answer to that question is likely very low, the next extremely relevant question is “Why?”. Some people live to be 102 smoking a pack a day their whole lives, other fitness freaks die of a heart attack at 51. I think it’s farther towards those types of ends of the bell curve than something the people have to worry about.
Brad
Whenever I’m a neutral no one ever tries to recruit me… My feelings are hurt.
- Ben
Originally posted by benmin18
Whenever I’m a neutral no one ever tries to recruit me… My feelings are hurt.
I’d give it a go Ben, but with all your fine print, I doubt I’d qualify…
Okay, good enough. You can’t please everybody all of the time. Thanks for the input gents. I’ll give one a go next time.
Any thoughts on what the best neutral for a newish player would be? I’ve decided already that Rhudaur is out!
It depend’s on what you enjoy. What ploy you wish to use. How good do you consider yourself. It’s hard picking Rhud. For I would have to know how good each team is. Dun’s have a limited army ability. Unless the Dun’s get a front line M. Town. Harad’s character’s will take time to build. The Cors are stuck on the bottom. Thus the need to take a front line pc. But the Cors do have the best character’s. 
For 2950, Corsairs. Both teams want to have you, and no one can really touch you.
- Ben
The Duns for 1650 are fun. It may take awhile to get going, but then…
I dislike outright lying, even “in-game”. That’s just my preference. And yes, I’ll remember those whom practice that particular trait. Again, it’s only a tactic, in a game. Besides, it’s more fun to “spin” something, rather than lie. Watch not only what is, or isn’t, said, but also how I say it.
Don
Originally posted by donvant
Besides, it’s more fun to “spin” something, rather than lie. Watch not only what is, or isn’t, said, but also how I say it.
Exactly.
Intent is what separates deception from errors/mistakes. Cloak and rationalize it as you will, if you intend to decieve then the spin and precise wording becomes just a means to the end.
I guess it’s a matter of perception and definition. I was taught that deception is a lie. Half-truths are lies. “Spin” (twisting things around) is a lie. So when I say I expect lies maybe we’re thinking the same thing. I find all these prefectly good tactics in the game.
Only the media would suggest you shouldn’t lie in wartime. So to all my enemies in currentl games , die you scumbags. We come for you.
nick
Stand, just play Gunboat.
That way, you don’t need to worry about becoming an object of hatred from the aligned players; nor need you fret about choosing alignment based on “game balance” or “team-work” or “bribes” or anything else. You also don’t need to worry about lying or being lied to – no truth-telling either in Gunboat. Everyone just shuts their pie-holes and plays.
I no longer play anything but Gunboat; but BG (i.e., before Gunboat) I had played my share of Neutrals. When I did so, I chose alignment based on one and only one consideration: game balance.