Greetings,
looks like sometimes the neutrals are making the games impossible to play.
I’m not without a blame in this case.
Maybe it should be restricted by rules that a 3:2 split will be the best you can get ?!
No, no, no… that penalises the neutrals…
Part of the game is diplomacy. Some people are better than others, but some don’t even try.
If you make the effort to contact all 5 neutrals and between you and your teamates you convince them to either remain neutral or join you, then haven’t you gone a long way to winning the game.
The game is about winning… not about making the game last a long time…
As long as you have 5 real neutrals at game start, then there is a level playing field.
Maybe there should be a new PRS that only neutrals can vote on… Best/most effective Diplomat. This might give Clint and co a steer as to who to put on which team, so as to balance out the diplomatic effort to woo neutrals.
Greetings Scorpion,
I’m not playing this game for the first time and I can tell you that at min in two games ( only regarding the last games ) we’ve had some decisions to give up the game because all neutrals have chosen the same side ( or 4:1 ).
You’re only playing to win a game ?
Well, I would like to have fun with a game and I guess that’s the main reason for all the other players to sign for a game.
In the case you’re thinking that you’ve done your best and all neutrals are joining the same side, many teams will drop.
The reasons are clear, I hope.
Have fun !
Gixxxer
Sometimes I think the only people who like neutrals are the ones who continually play them, I can see how having the power to hold a complete side to ransom could be attractive to some i.e. the neutral but everyone else? And don’t forget, every neut has his own agenda, reminds of RD’s article in Bree - can be game balance, could be pre-conceived, who talks the most, least etc etc they all have different criteria for joining.
Which is why down under we eventually decided that the only good neutral is a dead one…
My advice, tired of neutrals? Try 12 vs 12. Guaranteed not to have a game wrecked for everyone by one player, sure it doesn’t happen often but I bet its happened at least once to everyone.
For the record, I was in game 94 vs Gixxer, 10 vs 10 grudge - we were having a good tussle before all the neuts jumped on one side, some of them without even telling us. Chalk up a game win but so very very empty and who wants to spend 10 turns 100AUD on a fizzer, not me…
a few nickels here,
i have no issue with anyone who plays a neutral, with one exception. if your a neutral, then start as a neutral. i have played enough, i often know guys on both sides. if i go evil, the guys on the free side should realize its a game by game thing. my two favorite grudge teams were formed when i joined players on the other side in the next game. we often recruited excellent players from the opposition, to replace “retiring” teammates. yes, i want to win, but i’d rather lose a fun game, then win a walkover.
having just retired/dropped from a game that went 14-10, i have no problem with the neuts going 14-10. its there choice, as its my choice to no longer play. i had 10 turns of chaos and mayhem, and the neutrals had 10 turns of building a nice nation, and never got to deploy it. kinda like an athesist on sunday, all dressed up, no where to go.
as for PRS and such… i don’t mind, cause it don’t matter. i find the rankings, amusing.
sm
I think that no matter what the split ends up that neutrals by definition should always have the choice of which alignment they choose. Of course this is assuming that they are starting the game without prearranged ties to one of the aligned teams. I make this distinction as I feel some who might want to play the game as a neutral and try a particular alliance with one or the other sides regardless of diplomacy and it is their money and they should be allowed to do so.
I have been playing this game for a long time, and when you see a 4 to 1 split of neutrals my experience has been that either one side was playing so badly that the neutrals did not want to throw themselves on the fire as well, or that the diplomacy of one side or the other had severe problems. Often it is the fault of one player only on a side who alienates the neutrals. If you lose all the neutrals because of this it is unfortunate, however there are measures a team can take to lessen the damage of the loose cannon.
Brad Brunet plays neutrals often, I don’t know but he may play them every time. I have never played a neutral, but Brad may be able to shed more light on why the neutral split has been lopsided in his experience.
My two cents.
Its simple, if like you said we have “true neutrals” then the only reason for a lopsided split is bad diplomacy. We are dealing with that situation right now in a current game, so I know it happens. And frankly the fact is the neutrals put their money into this for the same reason the alliances do, for fun. Im not about to throw myself on the perverbial fire as a reward to a side that played poorly and has shown poor diplomacy.
My experience is that the team who get’s trounced by the majority of neutrals deserve it more often than not.
Diplomacy is part of the game: play the whole game or lose, your choice.
Brad Brunet
amen and pass the crackers…
Ah Stags, we love you man! I gotta play with you one day…you be Cardolan and I be Duns, 'kay? 
But seriously, this is an opinion shared by many. Unfortunately for those anti-diplomats, they’re more often than not signing up for independent games and aren’t able to rally their allegiance to THAT cause any better than they’re able to rally the neutrals to their allegiance… Stag’s can get away with this attitude as he plays on a tight and extremely competant team who can likely waltz into a 10v10 and walk the walk here. Most can’t, thus the endless supplies of tissues required on this board.
Canadian Brad
Absolutely… you’ve got to play all parts of the game if you’re going to “win”. Gunboat was set up so you can ignore certain parts of the game. 12v12 the same… there are variants that get rid of bits of the game… pay your money and make a choice… but if you have 5 random nations at start… make an effort to get them onboard or suffer the consequences.
Win could be whatever you want it to mean, from being on the side that is victorious, to achieving goals, to convincing a majority of neutrals to join your team to… the list is endless.
I never join a game with the intention of losing, so yes I play to win. Having fun is another way to win too.
Greetings Stags,
I haven’t known that you’ve played this short game numbered 94.-
Due to several games with the same result concerning the Neutrals, I’m only playing 12 vs 12 grudge-games or maybe 2950-games.
Have Fun !
Gixxxer
We’ve tried a 12v12 individual game (ie everyone signed up as for normal games but the Neutrals were aligned) but I don’t recall how it went.
If you guys want a game without Neutrals you can always ask. I think the comment that a 5-0, 4:1 split is correct in as much one team has been not as efficient at diploming.
Note you are not allowed to join a game as a Neutral with allies at all (1650, 2950 - 1000 rules are slightly different) Neutrals or aligned. You could join a game with a plan to change DS say on turn 3 unless X,Y, Z happened, but that’s about the limit.
Clint (GM)
From a player perspective my favourite games are the pre-aligned ones (Gunboat and Grudge), not because I don’t like the diplomacy (always happy to chat) but rather because of the way the Neutral split can affect the game. I played one 4th Age game (as a Neutral) where, to be frank, the diplomacy of one team was pretty awful and if we had all gone one way due to this diplomacy the game would have been a white-wash and boring for us Neutrals. So with some assistance I convinced a group of Neutrals to join one side for an interesting game - much fun was had.
Also playing in game 21 where the Grudge team of 10 for Matt (FP), basically Gunboat diplomacied the RE nearly out of the game was an interesting interpretation of diplomacy, nearly worked. 
There was a point in that game where there was nearly a 5:0 split in Neutrals but the DS decided not to bother to gather any more Neutrals due to he one sided nature of the game if that had developed.
Clint (player)
<grin> hey I thought you liked Rhu, I’ll be the WK…
Anyway, when are you canucks going to get a team together? Its about time isn’t it?
Note it doesn’t have to be the neutral split than can ruin a game, one bad egg and all…
yeah hi Gixxer, I was arth in that game where we had all the neuts I think jump freep. Mind you Rhu’s decision was alright, they declared good in time in face of early success against the WK (who didn’t seem to do a great lot besides build cities).
Anyway, you might want to try gunboat for something different!
cheers,
Stags.
Come now, I was trying to give you a chance…
Team Canada, one failed attempt 3 years ago, always open…
Brad
Greetings Warlords,
wow looks like I’ve got some feed-back.
I’ve posted this thread after my mail-provider said “sayonara” for this evening, so I’ve had some time to take a look on some other games I’m not involved.
In the most cases the same stuff, but some games they’ve still this “Neutral-problem”, all neutrals ( or most of them ) are declaring for the same side.
I don’t think that this is a communication error.
Sometimes it’s easyer to chose the winning side, sometimes they’re prealigned.
Have Fun !
Gixxxer
Gixxer,
You’ve decided that the neutrals are the problem.
Regardless of what you see or read, you interpret the “evidence” to support your viewpoint. All the power to you but that ain’t the reality. Neutrals aren’t the “problem”.
The neutral “problem” is eerily similar to the short-game “problem”. Too many “point-click and please-me-NOW” players with none of the patience for, understanding of, or appreciation for, the games intent. Once we get over the “blame anyone but ME” syndrome, we can begin to see a weee piece of the truth.
Brad
Greetings Brad,
someway you’re right.
I’ve played this game long before the movies has made it more popular.
We’ve had interesting games ten years ago.
The last 1650-games I’ve started, they were a complete disaster and I’ve tried it with all allignments.
Due to this reason I’m paying grudge 12 vs. 12, the best way to play this game at the moment.
Have Fun !
Gixxxer