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mepbmlist
#1

Definitely! It was much more fun playing a neutral when all
Neutrals could talk to each other from game start. This
tended to mean that both sides got in direct contact with
the neutrals earlier, but that also added to the game.

That said ... I agree with Laurence that it is unrealistic
for the neutrals to work as an alliance, but I'm not
convinced this will happen. I've played in more games than I
care to remember and I can never remember all the neutrals
working together - even when the addresses were given out at
gamestart. The benefits outweigh the risks. Besides if you
want to play anonymously you can always ...

a) ask not to be put on the list (erm, Harlequin ought to
ask about this anyway - data protect act and all that)

b) don't have an email adfdress listed. That way nobody will
ever contact you! :slight_smile:

c) If you're worried about people knowing who you are,
simply arrange with the GM to play under a pseudonym.

Colin.

···

SAS/ALLSORTS <allsorts@compuserve.com> wrote
We are in the process of updating the accounts program. What would you
like to see on that? Would you also want to have Neutrals able to see the
addresses of other Neutrals in the game at game start and as the game
develops?

#2

Doing that rather gives your hand away, if you want to launch an early
attack. If all the other neutral contact details are issued, but one is
not, then it's rather obvious what's coming.

That's a few now that have said "yes" to my "no" but none have convinced
me. (And I too played under GAD as a neutral.) BUT nobody has yet
answered this:

If the neutral contact details are to be given to other neutrals, why
not just give them out to all? It's much more logical that their
aligned neighbours would be able to talk to them, than that neutrals on
the other side of Middle Earth should.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Colin Forbes <colin@timewyrm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote

Besides if you
want to play anonymously you can always ...

a) ask not to be put on the list (erm, Harlequin ought to
ask about this anyway - data protect act and all that)

b) don't have an email adfdress listed. That way nobody will
ever contact you! :slight_smile:

c) If you're worried about people knowing who you are,
simply arrange with the GM to play under a pseudonym.

#3

It's assumed that you want to unless you say otherwise - see earlier email.
Not sure how we do that legally though?

a) ask not to be put on the list (erm, Harlequin ought to
ask about this anyway - data protect act and all that)

b) don't have an email adfdress listed. That way nobody will
ever contact you! :slight_smile:

Heh I have heard of some players who use the phone - not me (well you
wouldn't want to be called a 3am would you?)

c) If you're worried about people knowing who you are,
simply arrange with the GM to play under a pseudonym.

This has been done on 4 occasions and no I am not telling you who they are.

···

Colin.

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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#4

Doing that rather gives your hand away, if you want to launch an early
attack. If all the other neutral contact details are issued, but one is
not, then it's rather obvious what's coming.

Same as not replying to contact - players who do not chat get hit....

If the neutral contact details are to be given to other neutrals, why
not just give them out to all? It's much more logical that their
aligned neighbours would be able to talk to them, than that neutrals on
the other side of Middle Earth should.

Different question to the Neutral knowing Neutral comment. Knowing who you
are playing against on the other team does not seem so appropriate. Many
reasons for this.

Clint

#5

Heh I have heard of some players who use the phone - not me (well

you

wouldn't want to be called a 3am would you?)

Nothing wrong with the phone... Usually I wouldnt mind getting a call
at 3am considering I never get to sleep usually before 5am anyway. I
find the phone is a much easier way of communicating and I actually
prefer to mail letters etc. than using the e-mail too.

Thomas Crane
FK in the BOTR rematch team

#6

Laurence G. Tilley wrote:

If the neutral contact details are to be given to other neutrals, why
not just give them out to all? It's much more logical that their
aligned neighbours would be able to talk to them, than that neutrals on
the other side of Middle Earth should.

The Free get contact details for the Free.
The DS get contact details for the DS.
The neutrals should get contact details for their group, the neutrals.

Under your system the neutrals get left in the dark.

And who says we have to convince *you*? :slight_smile:

Gavin

#7

No it's not, not at all. If I get no reply from a neighbouring neutral,
I presume that he's a newbie, or a lazy b*gg*r, with a small chance that
he's going to jump me. I've come across an awful lot of the first and
second types. If my neutral neighbour makes it obvious that he does not
want to talk, by actively excluding his details from a list, then I KNOW
he's going to jump me.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Harlequin Games <pbm@harlequingames.com> wrote

Doing that rather gives your hand away, if you want to launch an early
attack. If all the other neutral contact details are issued, but one is
not, then it's rather obvious what's coming.

Same as not replying to contact - players who do not chat get hit....

#8

But they're not meant to be a group! That's the point. When they do
form up as a group, their actions can have a ruinous effect on a game.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote

The Free get contact details for the Free.
The DS get contact details for the DS.
The neutrals should get contact details for their group, the neutrals.

#9

Laurence G. Tilley wrote:

When they do
form up as a group, their actions can have a ruinous effect on a game.

No more so than four members of your side dropping at once 'cos they're
bored. I would call neutrals grouping together, "negotiating from strength".

Accept it, Laurence, there is neither a perfect game nor a perfect world.

Gavin

#10

But this regularly happens. From my player point of view as the Easterlings
in me39 I wanted to have a good game. Some drop outs and stronger play and
diploming on the FP side meant that the game was virtually over before I
even had a chance to do what I wanted to do in the game (can't discuss that
here!) The only way to continue on was to convince the remaining Neutrals
to go DS. The game-reality is that they do often act as a group - not
always but often enough. It only takes a turn to get in touch with all the
neutrals and with email you are chatting away straight from the start of the
game anyway. I think adding the Neutrals to the list would help remove the
hassle of contacting those that do want to be contacted and for those who
don't want to be contacted they can just not reply to diplos.

So, given this, maybe for the first turn the Neutrals need to be on
Everyones sheet? 2nd turn onwards they are removed from the sheet?

Not giving this scenario I can just duplicate the way we do it at present?

For email players the intention is to get the Frontsheet actually into the
email itself so that it makes it much easier to read and remove some of the
less useful items such as payment details, positions available that sort of
thing.

Clint

···

>The Free get contact details for the Free.
>The DS get contact details for the DS.
>The neutrals should get contact details for their group, the neutrals.
But they're not meant to be a group! That's the point. When they do
form up as a group, their actions can have a ruinous effect on a game.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

#11

i think that having the neutrals listed [at least on t1] on your frontsheet
is a good idea. it would probably save a lot of your time redirecting
diplos too!
when are you gonna start?

L8R,
David Murray.

#12

So what does that mean, that we cease striving for a _better_ game and a
_better_ world? Are you existentialist in all things?

Certainly 4 members dropping from "boredom" wrecks a game, so where
possible we need house rules that discourage that and allow it to be
corrected. Likewise we need to discourage 5 neutrals clubbing together
from turn 0 and all declaring the same way.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote

When they do
form up as a group, their actions can have a ruinous effect on a game.

No more so than four members of your side dropping at once 'cos they're
bored. I would call neutrals grouping together, "negotiating from strength".

Accept it, Laurence, there is neither a perfect game nor a perfect world.

#13

When I think I have enough of an idea of what players want. I am doing the
specifications for the program at present.

i think that having the neutrals listed [at least on t1] on your

frontsheet

···

is a good idea. it would probably save a lot of your time redirecting
diplos too!
when are you gonna start?

L8R,
David Murray.

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#14

No, I don't like this, even though it would be fractionally better than
just giving out neutrals to neutrals. Even Gavin has spoken of how
annoying it is to have neutral players who start predisposed to one
allegiance. If negotiations with the neutrals are allowed to start on
turn 0, then the chances that they will have such predispositions is
increased. You'll see a lot more neutrals attacking on turn 1, which is
not what neutrals are supposed to be - they are supposed to be nations
who had not committed themselves in the days leading up to the war.

Likewise, a neutral who does not want to be contacted directly by others
on turn 1 following, should be allowed to do so without having to show
his hand by being listed as "anonymous" or whatever.

Leave it as it is! Sending the little postcards round is fun! I like
to think that I can tell a lot about a player just by the effort he
makes. Some write all in role play or role play with howlers "Greetings
from King Din Ohtar", some send you a phone number written on the back
of a torn beer mat, some send you a three page battle plan. And most of
all, as a neutral you get some indication of how much the opposition
wants you - 1.5 beer mats from the DS and 7 scented love letters from
the FP. Please don't take this fun part of the game away from us.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Harlequin Games <pbm@harlequingames.com> wrote

So, given this, maybe for the first turn the Neutrals need to be on
Everyones sheet? 2nd turn onwards they are removed from the sheet?

#15

FK in the BOTR rematch team

G'day Ren,

Interesting first turn, wouldn't you say? Nice moves around mordor,
pity no ones around to greet you guys! Looks like the south and east
should be fun for both sides. Mirkwood is certainly different, hard to
say what will happen here. And Arnor, WK/Rhu go all out attack, nice
stuff.

So, winter coming on, hope you can pay for all these troops! And care
to comment on the first turn market buyout of steel? You bought at 16
and get to sell at 11 :slight_smile:

Amroth the annoying.

#16

I finally came up with a compromise solution. Give out neutrals' contact
details in all games, except to Laurence. There, we're all happy now.

Gavin

#17

But this regularly happens. From my player point of view as the

Easterlings

in me39 I wanted to have a good game. Some drop outs and stronger play

and

diploming on the FP side meant that the game was virtually over before I
even had a chance to do what I wanted to do in the game (can't discuss

that

here!) The only way to continue on was to convince the remaining Neutrals
to go DS. The game-reality is that they do often act as a group - not
always but often enough. It only takes a turn to get in touch with all

the

neutrals and with email you are chatting away straight from the start of

the

game anyway. I think adding the Neutrals to the list would help remove

the

hassle of contacting those that do want to be contacted and for those who
don't want to be contacted they can just not reply to diplos.

So, given this, maybe for the first turn the Neutrals need to be on
Everyones sheet? 2nd turn onwards they are removed from the sheet?

Not giving this scenario I can just duplicate the way we do it at present?

For email players the intention is to get the Frontsheet actually into the
email itself so that it makes it much easier to read and remove some of

the

less useful items such as payment details, positions available that sort

of

thing.

Clint

> >The Free get contact details for the Free.
> >The DS get contact details for the DS.
> >The neutrals should get contact details for their group, the neutrals.
> But they're not meant to be a group! That's the point. When they do
> form up as a group, their actions can have a ruinous effect on a game.
>
> Regards,
>
> Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/
>

RD: Historical note: if you want to make the game more realistic, and in
keeping with Tolkien, you wouldn't give ANYBODY any other player's contact
details at game start! In 2950 the Noldor weren't in communication even
with their Silvan/Sinda cousins in Mirkwood, let alone the Northmen, Gondor
and most certainly not Dwarves!

So if you allow the FP to have each others' contact details in defiance of
the above, logically, you should do the same for Neutrals. I know it's not
realistic but is is fair.

Or, why can't Neutrals choose whether to disclose their contact details or
not? Clint?

Regards,

Richard.

#18

Everyone can have their contact details hidden if they want to.

···

Or, why can't Neutrals choose whether to disclose their contact details or
not? Clint?

#19

Or, why can't Neutrals choose whether to disclose their contact details or
not?

Everyone can have their contact details hidden if they want to.

But you've missed the point Richard. If one neutral chooses to hide his
details, and all the others don't, it points a huge finger of suspicion
on him. He suddenly becomes MUCH more liable to attack than under the
current arrangements.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Harlequin Games <pbm@harlequingames.com> wrote

#20

Laurence G. Tilley wrote:

But you've missed the point Richard. If one neutral chooses to hide his
details, and all the others don't, it points a huge finger of suspicion
on him. He suddenly becomes MUCH more liable to attack than under the
current arrangements.

That would be said player's choice, though. Clint would need to add
something to the house rules or the start-up to explain that neutrals
contacts are revealed, after which...

Gavin