Now that the Freeps won Game 71, I need my MEPBM fix!
I and a friend are wanting to get a 2-week “normal” FA
game going. How many folks are playing FA these days?
I see lots of 1650 threads and a few 2950 threads, but
not so many FA…
Anyway, we’re submitting our nation designs to Clint this
week. I’m hoping there are others up for the challenge
as we enter this new year riding the coat-tails of the
most AWESOME movies ever! WOOHOO! OMG those battle
scenes in Return of the King were cool. If Peter doesn’t
win Best Director, the Academy is useless. period. And
if you haven’t seen the extended version of the Two Towers,
YOU SIMPLY MUST! It’s ever so much better than the theatrical
release.
I signed up some time back. It appears FA has lost a lot of popularity when compared to when it was first offered under GSI.
I generally sign up for every FA and 2950 game because they both take about 3 months to fill.
Don’t be fooled by the Forum: they are out there. For whatever reason, FA games are less likely to be posted here. My 2950 and 1650 games all have threads, but not my current FA game nor the last two.
But I’m less fond of “normal” games than LAS (limited assassination/kidnap, simply limits the agent SNA’s), and others may be, too. There are also several grudge FA requests running, so that may dilute the normal games at the moment.
Scott,
excellent! the rule book is purchased as a part of the setup. You can order it on the ME Games Web site: http://www.middleearthgames.com/
It’s just a bit more than the normal setup.
Go to “which scenario should you play” page,
then go to the bottom of that page, and download the Fourth Age Nation Design Sheet (a word doc). It’s relatively self explanatory, but if you have questions, feel free to ask me!
I was planning to give the 4 age a try in the not so distant future, is there somewhere to find the pros and cons of different strategies, and other thoughts on the game?
Excellent. we’re rapidly filling up the FA game. There are now only 9 open positions and that’s down quite quickly from a couple of weeks ago!
regarding questions on strategy for FA: well, that’s the neat thing about it. You can take your experience playing in 1650 or 2950 with the different nations and their SNAs, and pick & choose what you like from different nations and combine it into your own custom nation.
Here are some thoughts that I have on FA:
a. there is much less (almost no) military combat in the first few turns. So in this way it’s more of a developmental game like 2950. Starting Nations just can’t afford big armies - but they can roam around destroying/capturing smaller pop centers.
b. you don’t know what other nations’ SNAs are, you don’t know artifact powers, you don’t know a LOT. So it’s always a new game each time you play. not like 1650 where you can observe the first few turns and pretty much figure out who is going to win based upon whether or not people did the “right” thing or not.
c. naval combat continues to bite, so it’s rare that anyone chooses those SNAs - but… the neat thing about FA is that people are always trying new things. so who knows? maybe someone will figure out a killer naval power strategy.
d. LAS games are set up to limit the power of agents early in the game, and from what Clint tells me, this is the most popular form of FA game that runs. So think about your nation design in terms of the game likely not having mega agents until mid/late game(remember it’s much harder to find the agent artifacts, and there’s no x2scout, stealth bonus or +20 assassination - so it just means that it takes a while longer for agents to develop)
e. camps go fast the camp limit gets reached by somewhere between turn 5 and 7.
f. if you choose hidden pop center (pretty expensive), then DON’T use it on your capital. You must have a starting army, and it’s in your capital. So you’d have this nice starting army show up on an empty hex … wouldn’t take folks long to figure out where the capital was… So hide another one of your pop centers if you do hide one.
g. for mages - choose spells that match the level of mage skill. i.e. don’t pick 3 hard spells for your 30Mage. The beginning casting score will be based upon your mage’s starting mage rank adjusted for level of difficulty of the spell.
h. A neat idea for picking the one special victory condition: choose #6 - this is essentially a free identification of an artifact (Research Artifact). Lots more RAs get cast in FA than in the other 2 game versions. The other special VCs are tuned to particular nation design types (more or less)
i. given that it’s a developmental game, your economy is hugely important in the early game. planning ahead is a very good idea. The SNA that lets you gain 20% on market orders is very popular for this reason.
j. games last longer than 1650 or 2950. Like I said earlier, it’s not clear by turn5 which way the game is going. People stay in lots longer because they have fun longer, and because there’s lots more exploration of ways to play the game (i.e. there’s no “right strategy” for a particular nation/position - everything is different each time)
Hope this helps. I’d encourage others to add their $0.02 to this thread. Feel free to argue with the above if you think it’s drivel.
As I get players in I record their choices for scenario type. Ie Normal, NKA and LAS.
When I get close to (or have filled) the 25 nations I get in touch with players if need be to get everyone on the list to sign up for the same type of game.
Usually I get something like:
20 players with Normal or LAS
3 players with Normal
2 with LAS only
(Occasionally get NKA only). So in this example I would get in touch with the 3 players for Normal asking if they would be happy to change to LAS and the 2 LAS players asking if they would be happy to change to Normal.
Normal games only one nation per allegiance is allowed the +20% kid/ass ability.
LAS - no nation on any side is allowed +20% kid/ass, extra chance of Stealth or Double Scout SNAs.
The different formats are in the Set-up form.
One interesting thing I would like to see discussed is changing the points for 1000 games. So some abilities are often considered to be too much or too little.
We can’t code change it but I’d still be interested in getting some viewpoints on what would be better - maybe even a Bree article.
Also would anyone be interested in a Gunboat 1000. It would have regions so that if you choose a region in area 6 (South Mordor say) then your second set-up would be in Region 1 (NW are around the Iron Hills). I could get someone to create a graphic of what would be the areas.
Ok, Clint you asked for it…
here are some thoughts on the SNAs in FA. These are my bias, so people may feel free to disagree, throw rotten vegetables, or just curse my name.
General comment: many of the lower cost SNAs don’t get picked
because you can only choose 4 SNAs. This may be a software data structure limitation? But if we’re ignoring programming limitations for commentary, then I’d say it is desirable for nations to be able to spend their $20k on as many SNAs as they can fit.
7000 1 Scout/recon at double normal skill rank.
3000 2 Scout/recon at +20 to normal skill rank.
Both of the above are highly valuable SNAs and seem to cost about the right amount. When we first playtested FA, I believe that Double Scout had to be raised in cost to the current 7k.
4000 3 Scout/recon at minimum 50 (all characters) - Dwarves only.
The above seems too expensive. If +20 only costs 3000, then scouting at 50 is what all agents will do right out of the starting blocks (probably better because I bet nations choosing #2 also choose #11). Of course you do get the ability on any character… But overall it’s too expensive. a 50 Scout isn’t of much value anyway. It’s ok for recon (which is what I bet it gets used for if anyone ever does this) I think the cost should be 2000.
2000 4 Challenge rank bonus (a character special ability) more likely for new characters. #4 seems reasonable and would be used more if people could choose more than 4 SNAs.
7000 5 Stealth rank bonus (a character special ability) more likely for new characters. #5 effectiveness seems to have been significantly degraded from the CL percentages in 1650. This comment is based upon my experience playing with allies who choose this SNA. They were always complaining that they should have chosen a different SNA given the cost and very few agents who ended up with stealth.
6000 8 Buy/sell orders receive 20% market adjustment. #8 is A real WINNER! This might be the most frequently selected SNA. Survey anyone? Given the small number of starting pop centers in FA, building up a nation’s economy is hugely important. This SNA helps big time. It’s not over priced. It might be under priced. But probably it’s priced right and is just a really good SNA.
6000 9 New emissaries start at rank up to 40 (Order #734).
4000 10 New mages start at rank up to 40 (Order #737).
6000 11 New agents start at rank up to 40 (Order #731).
3000 12 New commanders start at rank up to 40 (Order #728).
My personal preferences in the above are for #s 9 & 11. I think these are perhaps the 2 most important SNAs in the entire list. Why? Because MEPBM is a game where you play by proxy through your characters. Characters fail/succeed based upon their skill rank. These 4 SNAs allow you to skip 3-4 turns of development for every character you name on the road to the character becoming proficient. Commanders are the easiest class to increase rank and so I see #12 as less valuable than 9 or 11. And note it does cost less! Mages are a character class in need of help in MEPBM. Much has been written on ideas to make them more interesting and useful to nations in all the scenarios so I won’t go into that here. But I will point out that mages are inefficient in many (most?) battle situations, and that while artifacts are helpful in FA, the good ones take even longer to get because you don’t know which is which. So I’m not a big fan of mages in general in FA, and certainly not of wasting valuable SNA slot/money on an ability to name 40 mages. blech
2000 13 All new troop recruits start at training 20.
3000 14 All new troop recruits start at training 25 - Elves only.
make #14 cost 2000 also. Should get some benefit of having chosen being an Elf! After all Arwen is dead now, so who wants to be an elf? (note: humor was intended here)
2000 6 Armies lose no morale for force march.
2000 7 Armies w/o food gain 1-2 morale while stationary, lose 1-2 moral while travelling; troops lose
1-2 moral while force marching, lose 2-5 morale while force marching w/o food.
2000 15 All new HI recruits start at training 30 - Dwarves only.
1000 16 All new MA recruits start at training 25.
3000 20 New armies start at morale 40.
7000 21 New armies hired at no cost.
Again - I think the various army SNAs would be selected more frequently if you could have more than 4 SNAs total. Note how cheap they all are? Being able to choose more than 4 would make creating a military focused nation interesting.
4000 19 Build fortifications at 1/2 timber cost. #19 seems to be priced right.
2000 22 Uncover secrets at minimum 40 (all characters).
Does anyone ever choose #22? Probably not. Everyone ends
up with a cadre of emissaries in FA and they are usually in a company by end game, and they usually have that extra order available for uncover secrets. So this SNA seems destined to be highly unpopular given the nature of FA.
4000 23 Can learn lost “weakness” spell.
4000 24 Can learn lost “conjure mounts” spell.
4000 25 Can learn lost “conjure food” spell.
4000 26 Can learn lost “conjure hordes” spell - Dark Servants only.
3000 27 Can learn lost “fearful hearts” spell - Dark Servants only.
3000 28 Can learn lost “fanaticism” spell - Dark Servants only.
4000 29 Can learn lost “summon storms” spell - Dark Servants only.
6000 30 Can learn lost “teleport” spell.
Ah - the mage spell SNAs. Well, you already know what I think of mages. I think all of these are priced too high for reasons already stated re: the value of mages. So let me rant about them individually: #25 is a waste. Let’s just say that you are a military nation and that you like having an army of 2000HC. that’s 4k food/turn. Ok, so no way are mages going to be with that army keeping it fed (3-4 mages required). So what about 1000HC? That’s 2k food/turn. That’s also 2 mages in the army just to keep it fed… #26 is interesting and can be used in creative ways. #24 is definitely interesting. The combat spell SNAs are too expensive because using mages in combat is an inefficient use of your nations resources. Finally - teleport. I think it should be made cheaper so that more people actually try to go after artifacts in FA. Right now it’s daunting. Making teleport cheaper would reduce the hurdle a bit.
12000 31 Kidnappings/assassinations at +20.
The most maligned SNA is this CL special. People either love it or hate it. My recent experience with the game system (from game 1650 71) is that agents are no longer the gods that they were back in the 90s. But, this SNA and a double-scout sure does make for a powerful nation. Thus the popularity of LAS games. I think it’s priced right. 12k is very expensive.
2000 17 Build ships at 1/2 timber cost.
2000 18 Build ships at 1/3 timber cost - Elves only.
3000 32 Navies can travel open seas w/o fear of storms or becoming lost.
2000 33 Navy warship strength at 4.
3000 34 Navy warship strength at 5.
The problem with the naval SNAs isn’t their cost. It’s that navies self-destruct even when they win a naval combat. Naval combat is just so hugely expensive in MEPBM that it really discourages all of the naval SNAs. Now, this could be fixed with an SNA that allows for more survivable ships in naval combat. that would be an interesting SNA! Another fix to navies that is sorely needed is that ships should be a part of an army just as war machines and other baggage train items are. Thus if a navy lands and fights a battle, the commander should be able to issue a MovNavy order after the battle without having to specify that (s)he wants to pickup all of the ships they just disembarked from. duh! If another commander of a different army wanted to pickup those ships and MovNavy, then yes, they should have to use the PickUpShip order. The other neat idea this could allow is for the navy commander to abandon the ships himself after he moved inland (if he had no further use for them) rather than someone back at the capital.
ok. this turned out to be very long indeed.
comments/disagreements/arguments - all are welcome!
Dave
a. there is much less (almost no) military combat in the first few turns. So in this way it’s more of a developmental game like 2950. Starting Nations just can’t afford big armies
Careful here: it’s true that no one starts with an enormous army, so combat can be delayed.
But many nations do start with fine economic strength – much more than in 2950 – and it’s easier to plan recruiting from multiple pc’s, either by SNA or by design of location. You can also begin with an army with quite a lot of food or warmachines, and some designs plan for substantial (and fast!) cavalry build-up.
Both the middle and Eastern parts of the map in G142, for instance, looked like Christmas trees by T3, and in G45, one nation had been eliminated militarily by T5.
Will it be several turns before you see battle in FA? Probably, but when designing your nation, don’t write off your starting armies.
