Clint and Co,
I know that your company has interest in developing new PBM games, and I was wondering what progress you’ve made on doing so? Anything coming out soon? If so, will it be a new system, or based on the tried-and-true mechanics of MEPBM?
Chris Guerra
I believe they are working on something called Kin Strife at present, but I couldn’t get any more details from Clint on this when I asked - not even a timescale.
I’m sure when they have something formal to announce they will do so in a blaze of publicity.
Gavin
Hope they get the ‘creativity’ out of their system with the Kin Strife and return 1650 to what it was intended to be.
Not sure what you mean by this about 1650. I was not under the impression it had changed much over the past few years. What do you think it was intended to be and where do you think ME Games have deviated from this?
Gavin
Gavken, it was designed and intended to be an amoral Real Politik, shrouded in fog and uncertainty, Wild West cut-throat chaos. Persons who never played the Game when it was run by the American designers would have no knowledge of that. Harley has regularized, constrained, illuminated and ‘ethicized’ much of it.
I’m not saying that 1650 is bad, only that it is less than what it once was. It is possible, but unlikely, that Harley has realized what it is done and may correct that directions of drift in the Kin Strife. If this was Las Vegas I wouldn’t bet on it.
I’m not sure that it is Harlequin, or ME Games that has done this. The game engine is still what it was essentially back when it was created. What has changed during this time is the advent of the Internet as a communication tool (something independent of those that run the game). The Internet has meant that the information in the game has become rapidly spread to all players. I began playing about 6 years ago and even then this process had started. If you played with the right people, you could get this information easily.
What hasn’t happened is game development to offset this certain environment. I know a number have people have spoken about a more random form of 1650 so that everything is not known at game start, but that would be a differnet game to the one that was originally developed.
Gavin
Gavin, there is much in what you say. But consider just ONE Harley change: GSI did NOT provide the names of your “team mates”, while The Company does this routinely. What changes does this imply for game play? How is the fog-of-war affected? What ruses-of-war are now denied?
More and more games and players are evolving into a fascist-like regimentation. Efficiency is everything. This could hardly be more different from the original game intent.
GB captures much of the “fog of war” of the early MEPBM days. What it doesn’t capture is the “amoral Real Politik” that Ed mentions.
We are in the process of playing an “amoral Real Politik” game now. It’s an “all-neutral 1650”, game 68. Believe me, it is totally amoral & full of politics, backstabbing and all of the things that made the old days shine in Ed’s view. Ed, why aren’t you in game 68? I thought it was the one game we could expect you in… Of course, everyone would have been double-super-cautious with you… <grin>
It will be interesting at the end to see who back-stabbed who, who allied secretly with who, who filched on their secret alliances, etc, etc. Right now the game has already attrited almost a third of the 23 starting players (QA & Northmen positions did not play) and we’re on game turn 13/14.
Dave, I was on a two week hunting trip in the mountains when Brad and John’s creative vision was developed. They then broke the speed limit getting the game off the ground.
Don’t play Gunboat (another excellent partial rollback of the The Company’s accretions to the GSI inheritance) because they provide the names of the other players (why, if you are not suppose to contact them?) and forbids basic ruses-of-war like naming a character after a defunvt enemy character. Trying to make the world safe for Englishmen is my guess.
The Company is willing to do anything with this game except the artistic vision of the game’s creators. Since Gunboat and All-Neutral were sucessful partial rollbacks of The Company’s accretions I asked Clint to provide a ‘non-variant’ and run a game like Stassun-Feilds intended. He instantly said “No”. A couple of days later (after having quashed discussion) he said “No” again since no one else had commented on it. Still I view that as progress of some sort. Just two years earlier The Company had huffily denied they had made any changes to the game. Frankly, The Company, in my view, is not creative. Recent creativity has come from some of the players and involve partial roll-backs of the accreations.
Ed,
This really is tiresome, it just goes on and on and on…
Why don`t you:
[A]Buy a license for the game, and do what you want with it?
[b]Try and get a group of players together who actually care for the type of game you mourn the “death” of and if there are enough im sure Harlequin will provide a set-up [for a fee, natch ;-)]...of course by putting that group together youll know all their names…
[C]Stop playing MEPBM if it is so bad?
I for one have been playing MEPBM for longer than i care to remember–13/14 years, i can`t recall etc…and in my opinion it has only got better and better. I remember the style of game you opine the loss of, the fog of war was fun to a point, but not so fun was playing Cardolan, trying to message Arthedain for 5 turns [swearing at their uselessness] only to find they had dropped when their account was empty. You may call that realism, i call it damned annoying…
I don`t know why you pester Harly like they are a multi-national evil conglomerate, i doubt very much any other their directors are millionaires. Perhaps you need to refocus your energies?
I admire your persistance, if nothing else…
Ed, do us all a favour (or even favor) and cease all of this. It’s not winning you any friends at all.
Don’t play Gunboat (another excellent partial rollback of the The Company’s accretions to the GSI inheritance) because they provide the names of the other players (why, if you are not suppose to contact them?) and forbids basic ruses-of-war like naming a character after a defunvt enemy character.
The names are there for GB so that you don’t accidently talk about the game - whenever I meet up with players I ask if they are in GB XX so that I don’t talk about it.
Naming characters - it’s a variant rule (at the request of players) that is not the basic format of GB and rarely used.
I asked Clint to provide a ‘non-variant’ and run a game like Stassun-Feilds intended. He instantly said “No”. A couple of days later (after having quashed discussion) he said “No” again since no one else had commented on it.
Our policy here is to create games that players will play. We offered it out as a variant and no-one, that’s no one player, signed up for it. So instantly said no, well I have to disagree with your language here. Like I’ve said before many a time, if there’s a player base I’ll support it but there doesn’t appear to be a player base for the format of game you’ve asked for. I tried setting up another All-Neutral game but don’t recall you signing up for that. Maybe you missed the messages?
I don’t quite understand your attacks here. I understand that for some reason you’ve taken a dislike to us and that we have constant attacks from you for such a reason. Maybe you have an ulterior motive, or maybe it’s just harmless fun for you I have no idea. Hopefully you enjoy the game and that’s enough for me. If you like it - play it, if you don’t feel free to comment (as you do, often), but please be fair as well to all concerned including your fellow players.
Clint (player)
New formats - Kin Strife is being developed. I’ll tell you more as we know but as an enticer:
Customisable characters, armies and PCs like 1000 but restricted in some ways towards nation types and set-up. 7v7 game (or 6v6 with 2 neutrals). New map. Variable characters limits for nations (less elves for example but stronger characters). New SNAs. Ability to recruit NPCs and gain their SNAs, new encounters, riddles etc, new artwork.
The Loyalists
The Usurpers
11. Line of Castamir many characters and pop. centres, few armies
12. Line of Morlean agent- and emmisary-based
13. Line of Elendin military-based, has all the Gondor outposts
14. Southron Kingdoms flexible starting options, mage- and army-based
15. Hithlum flexible starting options, army-based
16. Angmar flexible starting character options, mage- and army
The Neutrals
21. Line of Tirkhor mage- and character-based, with cavalry force
22. Khazad strong pop. centres, military-based
So far there are lots of different formats of games out there.All - Neutral (like game 68).
1000 has had a lot of upgrades recently - you’ve probably seen the posts about Kings, Princes, SNA cost changes etc. It’s presently just about to be in its 4th playtest.
1650 Gunboat has had an overhaul as well.
Bofa - lots of formats for that if you’re interested.
There was a 1650 game where you gained points over a limited timescale for grabbing PCs, killing characters, gaining artefacts etc.
Others - that’s upto your imaginations and enough players to play it.
We’re testing out the process routine (just spent a couple of hours working through orders for that - yawn).
Clint
Clint,
Kin-Strife sounds interesting, I’ll probably give it a go when it’s ready to roll. Actually, I was more interested in games prior to the Third Age, and possible non-Middle-Earth titles. I assume that you wish to fully develop one first, then move to another. Is there any other ideas you can divulge to the gaming community, or is it all hush-hush?
Lastly, sorry for stirring up the hornet’s nest concerning the merits of the current game versus the “old school” game. Could care less either way, just wish the discourse concerning it was retired permanently.
Chris Guerra
Ed rubs people the wrong way often, sometimes intentionally… But he made an interesting point that’s being passed over: variants that remove some of the social aspects of the game are increasingly popular. Real politik? Fog of war? Likely doesn’t cross as many minds as he may like as opposed to all those wishing yakketty allies like me would just shut up and leave them alone…
Yeah, well, don’t go regretting too much…Clint gave me the Fire King, 2nd worse nation in the scenario I think. It’s just motivated me to get back at him in game 80… 
I got the worst position, the Dark L. and only lasted 4 turns. Brad steam rolled right over my position and I went bankrupt.
Game 68 was great fun while it lasted for me, and I’d join another 2week version of it, just to get my own back on Brad 
Dave
Kin Strife does look interesting. A quick question - will it be using the same basic engine as other MEPBMs or will it have it’s own order set?
Is there any other ideas you can divulge to the gaming community, or is it all hush-hush?
Not at present (there’s lots more KS been done but not ready for release or even to playtest stage yet) - there’s games that I’d love to develop - we did a paper version and test out some mechanics for Dune but getting a licence of something similar is hard (ie money). Basically with the GSI t/o we had to priotise some hard work over fun… 
We think we’ve got a good paper game sorted but it will take some work - now that we have a couple of programmers working for ME and Harlequin we can do more development as time and energies allow.
We did some playtest for CCGs for fun (hobby work) but want to improve our Convention impact - that’s for the future as well.
I think it’s all quite exciting the future of the game myself and if there were only a few extra of me to go around then …
Other stuff - not sure. I’d like to see a 1000 AllvAll game - sounds good fun but there’s not enough players.
Clint
Quick reminder - I only really like to reply to people who sign their posts with their names. It’s just one of my things.
Clint