new rules

mepbmlist
#1

Overkill?

I've received the document sent out to interested parties in
regards to the rule rewrite project. I fear a loss of forest
with a net exponential gain of trees...

I understand the difficulty with many parts of the game, how
the program works, etc. But to include all that has been
asked would quadruple or more the book! I can see over 1 page
PER order! No no no no!

Where there are factual ERRORS in the rule book, correct them,
that's a new "Edition". The rules themselves are very efficient
and subtle - they give you all the information. The problem is,
one has to learn to read it. This kind of "mentoring" would
best be served as a "newbie package" of articles explaining some
of the more problematic topics, no?

Order Sequence
Encounters
the Economy
Movement
Relative Order Difficulty
etc

Include some examples, with the assumption that there are many
more situations where such and such applies. All situations or
examples cannot possibly be included. If you're not very clear
that this is a basic guideline, then people presume you're
telling them everything and will get even MORE pissed when they
find an "exception".

You can't hold everyone's hand. People who can't deal with
many of these aspects of the game will drop, and rightly so:
this isn't the game for them...

Brad Brunet

···

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#2

I've received the document sent out to interested parties in
regards to the rule rewrite project. I fear a loss of forest
with a net exponential gain of trees...

*** Only gone out to players that have expressed a specific interest.

I understand the difficulty with many parts of the game, how
the program works, etc. But to include all that has been
asked would quadruple or more the book! I can see over 1 page
PER order! No no no no!

*** We've estimated that it would be 200-300 pages long. The present rulebook is 120 (x3 modules).

Where there are factual ERRORS in the rule book, correct them,
that's a new "Edition". The rules themselves are very efficient
and subtle - they give you all the information.

*** Strictly speaking correct.

  The problem is,
one has to learn to read it. This kind of "mentoring" would
best be served as a "newbie package" of articles explaining some
of the more problematic topics, no?

*** This is intended to be it. Not sure what the problem with it just being bigger is.

Order Sequence
Encounters
the Economy
Movement
Relative Order Difficulty
etc

Include some examples, with the assumption that there are many
more situations where such and such applies. All situations or
examples cannot possibly be included. If you're not very clear
that this is a basic guideline, then people presume you're
telling them everything and will get even MORE pissed when they
find an "exception".

*** Um not sure about that but I agree as long as it is clear that other aspects of the game and specific use of orders are do be Discovered in the Course of Play then it should be okay.

You can't hold everyone's hand. People who can't deal with
many of these aspects of the game will drop, and rightly so:
this isn't the game for them...

*** But then there are a large number of players for whom you can help and get into the game. Once they have gotten over certain aspects or get an idea on what to do that will help them a lot.

Thanks

Clint

#3

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote: >

> The problem is,
>one has to learn to read it. This kind of "mentoring" would
>best be served as a "newbie package" of articles explaining some
>of the more problematic topics, no?

*** This is intended to be it. Not sure what the problem with it
just
being bigger is.

You'll lose functionality if it's so much. 300 pages is a
lot. With clear and succinct rules as a resource for specific
information on one hand, then other articles and descriptions
and examples somewhere else, one can read the verbiage when
they're new, and maintain the actual facts for quick reference
later. 300+ pages does not make for quick reference : "I remember
this table was somewhere around..."

Brad

···

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#4

You'll lose functionality if it's so much. 300 pages is a
lot. With clear and succinct rules as a resource for specific
information on one hand, then other articles and descriptions
and examples somewhere else, one can read the verbiage when
they're new, and maintain the actual facts for quick reference
later. 300+ pages does not make for quick reference : "I remember
this table was somewhere around..."

*** Depends on how it is presented. We've written a few rulebooks and modules now I think we can do it without getting lost though but it is a small worry. If it does go wrong we can always cut it into a different set of rules I guess.

Clint

#5

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote: >
  > > The problem is,
  > >one has to learn to read it. This kind of "mentoring" would
  > >best be served as a "newbie package" of articles explaining some
  > >of the more problematic topics, no?
  >
  > *** This is intended to be it. Not sure what the problem with it
  > just
  > being bigger is.

  You'll lose functionality if it's so much. 300 pages is a
  lot. With clear and succinct rules as a resource for specific
  information on one hand, then other articles and descriptions
  and examples somewhere else, one can read the verbiage when
  they're new, and maintain the actual facts for quick reference
  later. 300+ pages does not make for quick reference : "I remember
  this table was somewhere around..."

  Brad
  RD: I agree with Brad, a big rulebook (or books) can be off-putting for newcomers: "Do I really have to read all this?" I'll bet more big rulebooks end up in the bin than small ones.

  Here's an idea for a quick reference table: photocopy the "quick reference orders" from pp109-110 of the rulebook, reduce the print size, and cut/paste onto a single side of A4. You also have room for the movement table and lots of smaller tables: characters per turn, tax/loyalty ratio, loy/em total needed to improve pops, battle losses, loyalties, no of troops fed by a pop. I've found this sheet indispensible and a terrific time-saver. Important: keep this sheet in one of those transparent plastic wallets otherwise it will very quickly get dirty and dog-eared and you will have to make another one!

  Now if Harle could do the same and send such a sheet out with the rulebook that WOULD be useful!

  One thing I disliked about Legends was that, having read the rulebook and the magic rulebook, the module rulebook contradicted a lot of stuff in the previous two!

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] new rules

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#6

  RD: I agree with Brad, a big rulebook (or books) can be off-putting for newcomers: "Do I really have to read all this?" I'll bet more big rulebooks end up in the bin than small ones.

** We've got Bofa as an introductory rulebook/module at present. This would mostly be for players getting to grips with the new bits with advice on what pages to read and what to leave for a later date (game 3 or the like). The problem we have is that some players learn at faster (or slower) rates than others so we need to be across the board enough to make the rulebook valid for all without putting too many off.

  Here's an idea for a quick reference table: photocopy the "quick reference orders" from pp109-110 of the rulebook, reduce the print size, and cut/paste onto a single side of A4. You also have room for the movement table and lots of smaller tables: characters per turn, tax/loyalty ratio, loy/em total needed to improve pops, battle losses, loyalties, no of troops fed by a pop. I've found this sheet indispensible and a terrific time-saver. Important: keep this sheet in one of those transparent plastic wallets otherwise it will very quickly get dirty and dog-eared and you will have to make another one!

  Now if Harle could do the same and send such a sheet out with the rulebook that WOULD be useful!

*** Sounds a good idea. I know DGE had one (we've got it in the office) but it's something to re-create I think.

  One thing I disliked about Legends was that, having read the rulebook and the magic rulebook, the module rulebook contradicted a lot of stuff in the previous two!

** Not sure who advised you to play Legends but they should be shot... :slight_smile: (Not that it ain't a good game but it is not a game for everyone). The module is deliberately set up to augment the rules - ie they are exceptions. (For those who CCG it's like that).

Clint