So what would you prefer to be called in the US? You often refer to
yourselves as americans, so perhaps we shouldn't call ourselves brits
(or english, or welsh, or scottish...) and swedes and danes, but
europeans. Yanks just doesn't sound right, and yankees is always
dangerous... Right Winn, you yankee?
/Pontus
Ah am deeply and grievously wounded by that comment sir. Ah would be forced to challenge you to a duel, to restore mah honor and that of the south, but you seem to be some distance away. Around heyuh, that term is used to describe members of those states that attacked the south in the War of Northern Agression. 
Winn
American by birth,
Southern by the grace of Gawd.
···
_________________________________________________________________
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Winn,
"War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate slavery, don't
you? 
Bob Chronley
Winn Keathley wrote:
···
>So what would you prefer to be called in the US? You often refer to
>yourselves as americans, so perhaps we shouldn't call ourselves brits
>(or english, or welsh, or scottish...) and swedes and danes, but
>europeans. Yanks just doesn't sound right, and yankees is always
>dangerous... Right Winn, you yankee?
>
>/Pontus
Ah am deeply and grievously wounded by that comment sir. Ah would be forced
to challenge you to a duel, to restore mah honor and that of the south, but
you seem to be some distance away. Around heyuh, that term is used to
describe members of those states that attacked the south in the War of
Northern Agression.
Winn
American by birth,
Southern by the grace of Gawd.
_________________________________________________________________
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I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit of his
bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote (forgive me if
I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves
today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none, ever, I
would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: bob chronley <Bobarian@home.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
Winn,
"War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate slavery,
don't
you?
Bob Chronley
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
Jeremy Richman
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit
of his
bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none,
ever, I
would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
> Winn,
>
> "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
···
----- Original Message -----
don't
> you?
>
> Bob Chronley
>
The phrase "winners write the history" is usually
applied in situations where the losers have no
voice -- for example, when they were destroyed
or enslaved. I'm sure that right after the war we are
discussing, the South was indeed in no condition
to write or promulgate any histories. But there's
nothing today that would prevent anyone from
researching and writing a different book about Lincoln
and/or the war that gives alternate interpretations.
Do you (or anyone) know of such?
Jeremy
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit
of his
bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none,
ever, I
would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
> Winn,
>
> "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
···
----- Original Message -----
don't
> you?
>
> Bob Chronley
>
JeremyRichman@compuserve.com wrote:
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
Somehow I doubt this discussion will change the way the Cloud Lord
assassins treat elves, but....
Appartnely, Lincoln said this at several points in time, most famously
in an exchange with Horace Greely, a newspaper editor. A Google search
will turn up several citations. His opinion was that the Federal
government did not have the right to interfere with individual property
rights (slaves being defined as property). He was, first and foremost, a
Unionist, and believed that the good of the nation was contained
therein.
As for the GA, Lincoln wrote it on the back of an envelope on the way to
the event, and didn't expect that it would be remembered (as he says in
the speech itself). I'm not sure he say himself as providing any sort of
foundation as you say.
jason
···
--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
Jason Bennett wrote:
As for the GA, Lincoln wrote it on the back of an envelope on the way to
the event, and didn't expect that it would be remembered (as he says in
the speech itself). I'm not sure he say himself as providing any sort of
foundation as you say.
Well, apparently I'm on crack about that whole envelope thing. The
Library of Congress site is excellent.
http://americanhistory.about.com/homework/americanhistory/library/weekly/aa111797.htm
http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/
···
--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
I lived in Georgia for about three years when I was a
kid. When I as there, they taught us in school that
the war was actually over who had to claim New Jersey.
The Noth lost.
Eric
P.S. Anyone from New Jersey - I love your state. Take
that in as the joke it was meant to be. Please, don't
hurt me.
···
--- JeremyRichman@compuserve.com wrote:
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
Jeremy Richman
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...>
wrote:
> I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant
Lincoln in pursuit
of his
> bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite
Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
> I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union
by freeing all
the slaves
> today, I would do so; if I could preserve the
Union by freeing none,
ever, I
> would do that." Never forget, the winners write
the history.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
>
>
> > Winn,
> >
> > "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War
to perpetuate
slavery,
> don't
> > you?
> >
> > Bob Chronley
> >
__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Mr. Tallen,
-- Not just the history, they also wrote the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments.
Bob Chronley
"G. W. Tallen" wrote:
···
I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit of his
bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote (forgive me if
I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves
today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none, ever, I
would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
----- Original Message -----
From: bob chronley <Bobarian@home.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
> Winn,
>
> "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate slavery,
don't
> you?
>
> Bob Chronley
>
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Jeremy,
The quote is accurate.
I'll try to get you the source.
Bob Chronley
JeremyRichman@compuserve.com wrote:
···
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
Jeremy Richman
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
> I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit
of his
> bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
> I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
> today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none,
ever, I
> would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
>
>
> > Winn,
> >
> > "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
> don't
> > you?
> >
> > Bob Chronley
> >
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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"G. W. Tallen" wrote:
I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit of his
bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote (forgive me if
I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves
today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none, ever, I
would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
More to the point: The Union's said that it was more important to
preserve the Union than what the Union eventually did about any
particular issue. The Confederacy said it was more important that
states have the right to make certain decisions for themselves than what
decision they actually made. Slavery just became the hot-button issue.
Certain issues today are subject to the same sort of debate, but folks
aren't shooting each other over them (yet). Never forget, there's more
to history than your high school text or the last PBS special.
-ED \1/
JeremyRichman@compuserve.com wrote:
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It's genuine, if not quoted exactly. The problem is that it has been
deliberately taken out of context and deliberately misrepresented.
Lincoln's opposition to slavery was well-known; his point was that the
preservation of the Union was of more importance, not that abolishing
slavery was irrelevant.
The quote preceds the Gettysburg address by a few years.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
? The Gettysburg address was never intended to be a permanent statement
of doctrine; it was a speech for the dedication of a cemetery at the
battlefield, nothing more. It is memeorable for its eloquent expression
of the (supposed) lofty ideals of the United States; it was intended to
reflect the nation's goals, not create them. As I recall it doesn't
particularly address civil rights, much less 'alter forever the meaning
of the U.S. Constitution.' I believe you have grossly overstepped the
bounds of reasonable interpretation, and therefore have some explaining
to do.
-ED \1/
I think I can find the citation for you -- will have to search a bit. It
was during the internal debates over the timing and extent of the
Emancipation Proclamation, so it pre-dated his Gettysburg address. By then,
he and much of the USA had clothed their earlier impulses in
"righteousness", but these sentiments were not evident when the war was
begun "to save the Union".
···
----- Original Message -----
From: <JeremyRichman@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:24 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Nicknames
I hadn't heard that about Lincoln -- can you cite
your source? I'd be interested in tracking it down.
It seems rather contradictory to his Gettysburg
Address where with deliberation he altered forever
the meaning of the U.S. constitution with regard
to providing a foundation for civil rights.
Jeremy Richman
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
> I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit
of his
> bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
> I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
> today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none,
ever, I
> would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
>
>
> > Winn,
> >
> > "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
> don't
> > you?
> >
> > Bob Chronley
> >
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Yes -- again give me a chance to compile a list, and find that quote. And
it might be wise for us to move this conversation off to private e-mail
before someone gets annoyed....
···
----- Original Message -----
From: <JeremyRichman@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:31 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Nicknames
The phrase "winners write the history" is usually
applied in situations where the losers have no
voice -- for example, when they were destroyed
or enslaved. I'm sure that right after the war we are
discussing, the South was indeed in no condition
to write or promulgate any histories. But there's
nothing today that would prevent anyone from
researching and writing a different book about Lincoln
and/or the war that gives alternate interpretations.
Do you (or anyone) know of such?
Jeremy
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
> I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in pursuit
of his
> bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
> I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
> today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing none,
ever, I
> would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
>
>
> > Winn,
> >
> > "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
> don't
> > you?
> >
> > Bob Chronley
> >
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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<sigh> Yes, the League of the South promotes a staunchly reactionary
view of the Civil War. I was raised in Texas, where the schools went
on endlessly about the "war for states rights". There were certainly
other reasons than slavery; but the moral horror of slavery poisoned
the well and prevented these other causes from being resolved more
peacefully.
Two brief thoughts, with flames directed to email if possible.
I believe that the US south is a much better place because of the
civil rights movement. Furthermore, both the pre-civil war history in
the South and the long and extreme discrimination against blacks after
the civil war is, unfortunately, pretty compelling evidence that the
majority culture there was not willing to treat blacks as equal human
beings until they were forced to. It is not a coincidence that the
South has flourished economically and in many other ways with the
passing of the bad old days of separate and unequal. Even the icons
of the segregationist south, like George Wallace, have acknowledged
exactly that. (Blacks and whites down south have always had more
complex interactions than the outside stereotypes would imply, btw,
but that takes us far away from middle earth!)
cheers,
Marc Pinsonneault
--- In mepbmlist@y..., JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
The phrase "winners write the history" is usually
applied in situations where the losers have no
voice -- for example, when they were destroyed
or enslaved. I'm sure that right after the war we are
discussing, the South was indeed in no condition
to write or promulgate any histories. But there's
nothing today that would prevent anyone from
researching and writing a different book about Lincoln
and/or the war that gives alternate interpretations.
Do you (or anyone) know of such?
Jeremy
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@w...> wrote:
> I think he refers to the war begun by the tyrant Lincoln in
pursuit
of his
> bloody faith "union at any cost." My favorite Lincoln quote
(forgive me if
> I paraphrase here): "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all
the slaves
> today, I would do so; if I could preserve the Union by freeing
none,
···
ever, I
> would do that." Never forget, the winners write the history.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob chronley <Bobarian@h...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Nicknames
>
>
> > Winn,
> >
> > "War of northern aggression"-- you mean the War to perpetuate
slavery,
> don't
> > you?
> >
> > Bob Chronley
> >
There's a great book out by Garry Wills:
"Lincoln at Gettysburg; The Words That Remade America"
that (IMO) compellingly shows how unusual Lincolns
GA speech was for its brevity and how unexpected it
was for its topic, and how it changed the interpretatation
of the constitution, replacing the then meaning of the
phrase "all men are created equal" with the meaning
we give it today. The jacket reads:
"The power of words has rarely been given a more
compelling demonstration than in the Gettysburg Address.
Lincoln was asked to memorialize the gruesome battle.
Instead he gave the whole nation "a new birth of freedom"
by tracing its firth birth to the Declaration of
Independence (which called all men equal) rather than
to the Constitution (which tolerated slavery). In the
space of a mere 272 words, Lincoln brought to bear
the rhetoric of the Greek Revival, the categories of
Transcendentalism, and the imagery of the "rural cemetary"
movement. His entire life and previous training, his
deep political experience, went into this, his revolutionary
masterpiece."
Jeremy Richman
--- In mepbmlist@y..., Jason Bennett <jasonab@a...> wrote:
Jason Bennett wrote:
> As for the GA, Lincoln wrote it on the back of an envelope on the
way to
> the event, and didn't expect that it would be remembered (as he
says in
> the speech itself). I'm not sure he say himself as providing any
sort of
> foundation as you say.
Well, apparently I'm on crack about that whole envelope thing. The
Library of Congress site is excellent.
http://americanhistory.about.com/homework/americanhistory/library/week
ly/aa111797.htm
···
http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/
--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@a...
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
