Off-topic = Gandalf's height

Hello all,

I hate to open this can of worms again, but I couldn't resist asking
a member of our team who prides himself on ME lore...

Here is what he had to say:

As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
and not Gandalf.

The answer to the first one is pretty easy. While his
hat can be deceptive, Gandalf's height at 6'4'
actually makes him the shortest of the Istari (Alatar
is 6'7", Pallando 6'6", Saruman 6'7", Radagast 6'5").
As to why he is second of the Ishtai, it probably goes
back to when Manwe chose him to journey to
Middle-earth despite his own misgivings about his own
ability. It was this, and the fact tha Gandalf never
aspired to lead as a master (preferring to work with
those he befriends), that caused him to yield to
Saruman's desire to lead their order. This all ties in
because he quickly befriends the Elves (especially the
Noldo), and when the Wizards arrived in Middle-earth
after the end of the first millennium of the Third
Age, none knew of their mission but Círdan the
Shipwright, Lord of the Grey Havens where their ships
put in. Though Saruman was at that time the
acknowledged leader of the Wizards, Círdan saw that
Gandalf was in fact the greater, and secretly gave him
the Red Ring Narya to aid him in his quest.

In addition to not having a challenge by Gandalf,
Saruman was chosen to lead the order because for 1400
years before the White Council was formed, Saruman had
traveled Middle-Earth and studied the ways of the
minions of evil and researched their tools and
methods. Because of this expertise, he was selected
to head the Council (perhaps his downfall began long,
long ago ... before he settled at Angrenost and peered
into the Palantir?). Anyway, I hope this answered
your questions.

--- Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello all,

I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
couldn't resist asking
a member of our team who prides himself on ME
lore...

Here is what he had to say:

As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
and not Gandalf.

even I knew why saruman was head of the White Council
- who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
in the background, keep a really fast horse for being
somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.

:slight_smile:

but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ? I'll
accept there might be something in the books on
Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???

Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can always
find their way home ???

:slight_smile:

thanks
din

p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his books.
The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to mind,
ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
breeding with us normal humans). I like to think that
Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.

I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
ability.

pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

···

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
- It's time you had your business online!

RD: I strongly suspect that the guy who gave the heights of all the Istari
took it from an ICE sourcebook rather than Tolkien. Show me a quote from
Tolkien that says how tall Gandalf was.

Gandalf warned that Saruman could change his appearance. As Gandalf was
more powerful than Saruman, surely he could do the same. Gandalf could
shrink into the background, as he did when the Dwarves were captured by
trolls in the Hobbit, and again in Goblin-town, and most remarkably of all
when he infiltrated the dungeons of Dol Guldur. More rarely, he drew
himself up to his full height eg when he faced the Balrog, or the Witch-king
at the broken gates of Minas Tirith, or when he overcame Saruman at
Isengard. For my money, Gandalf could make himself as tall or small as the
occasion required.

Re Biggs, not Briggs, you are absolutely right that even the British Health
Service will care for him better than a Brazilian (not Spanish) hospital now
he's run out of money. No wonder he wanted to come home.

Having spent his ill-gotten gains, he's come home to be a burden on the
British taxpayer for the rest of his life. Of course we will look after him
and keep him in comfort for the rest of his days, the poor old fellow, he
has his human rights, doesn't he?

Never mind the human rights of the poor sod the train robbers beat up
stealing the money, look after the poor misguided criminal. Good old
British justice.

Pass me the sick bucket quick.

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's height

--- Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello all,
>
> I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> couldn't resist asking
> a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> lore...
>
> Here is what he had to say:
>
> As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
> and not Gandalf.

even I knew why saruman was head of the White Council
- who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
in the background, keep a really fast horse for being
somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.

:slight_smile:

but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ? I'll
accept there might be something in the books on
Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???

Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can always
find their way home ???

:slight_smile:

thanks
din

p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his books.
The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to mind,
ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
breeding with us normal humans). I like to think that
Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.

I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
ability.

pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

spanish hospital ?

Biggs lived here, in Brazil !

···

pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
- It's time you had your business online!

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be so
wise (note the word "appear")?

And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman were
Maia, not men (original names of Ol�rin and Curumo),
millennium of the Third Age. Remember what happened
when Saruman died - clearly not men.

And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home, get
a dog :slight_smile:

JB

···

sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first

--- Din <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

--- Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello
all,
>
> I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> couldn't resist asking
> a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> lore...
>
> Here is what he had to say:
>
> As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> other why Saruman was the head of the White
Council
> and not Gandalf.

even I knew why saruman was head of the White
Council
- who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
in the background, keep a really fast horse for
being
somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.

:slight_smile:

but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ?
I'll
accept there might be something in the books on
Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???

Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
always
find their way home ???

:slight_smile:

thanks
din

p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
books.
The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
mind,
ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
that
Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.

I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
ability.

pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

_____________________________________________________________________________

http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
- It's time you had your business online!

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be so
wise (note the word "appear")?

RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like you're making it up. That's
not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.

And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman were
Maia, not men (original names of Ol�rin and Curumo),
sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
millennium of the Third Age. Remember what happened
when Saruman died - clearly not men.

RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs to mind. And what's that
got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as wizards, both Gandalf
and Saruman could change their appearance, and therefore by implication
their height, to suit any situation they found themselves in.

And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home, get
a dog :slight_smile:

JB

RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with anyway.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's height

— Din <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> — Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello
> all,
> >
> > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > couldn't resist asking
> > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > lore…
> >
> > Here is what he had to say:
> >
> > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> Council
> > and not Gandalf.
>
> even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> Council
> - who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
> group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
> and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
> in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> being
> somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.
>
> :slight_smile:
>
> but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ?
> I'll
> accept there might be something in the books on
> Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
>
> Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> always
> find their way home ???
>
> :slight_smile:
>
> thanks
> din
>
> p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> books.
> The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> mind,
> ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
> breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> that
> Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
> rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
>
> I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> ability.
>
>
> pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
> wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________
_

> http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
> - It's time you had your business online!
>

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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My aren't we friendly? Why so angry?

The reference to how they clearly are not men was
referring to the previous comment alluding to Gandlaf
being a High Man. But I suppose that I am making up
that Saruman died in a not-so-manly way.

Well Richard, I suppose since some just can't play
nice, let's forget the whole thing, and not play at
all.

JB

--- Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
wrote:

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's
height

> If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be
so
> wise (note the word "appear")?

RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like
you're making it up. That's
not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.
>
> And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman
were
> Maia, not men (original names of Ol�rin and
Curumo),
> sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
> millennium of the Third Age. Remember what
happened
> when Saruman died - clearly not men.

RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs
to mind. And what's that
got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as
wizards, both Gandalf
and Saruman could change their appearance, and
therefore by implication
their height, to suit any situation they found
themselves in.
>
> And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home,
get
> a dog :slight_smile:
>
> JB

RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with
anyway.
>
>
> — Din <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > — Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello
> > all,
> > >
> > > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > > couldn't resist asking
> > > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > > lore…
> > >
> > > Here is what he had to say:
> > >
> > > As a result of a few questions I have focused
turn
> > > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was,
the
> > > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> > Council
> > > and not Gandalf.
> >
> > even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> > Council
> > - who wants to be the front man for a
anti-sauron
> > group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still
around
> > and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to
work
> > in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> > being
> > somewhere else, and never stay too long in one
spot.
> >
> > :slight_smile:
> >
> > but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height
?
> > I'll
> > accept there might be something in the books on
> > Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
> >
> > Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> > always
> > find their way home ???
> >
> > :slight_smile:
> >
> > thanks
> > din
> >
> > p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> > smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> > books.
> > The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> > mind,
> > ie check the lifespans after the high humans
started
> > breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> > that
> > Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are
great',
> > rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
> >
> > I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> > second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> > greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> > ability.
> >
> >
> > pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> > Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> > treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke.
I
> > wonder if the UK will send him back as
punishment ?
> >
> >
>

____________________________________________________________________________

_
> > http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
> > - It's time you had your business online!
> >
>
>
> =====
> john_h_briggs@yahoo.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin
Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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I am fairly new to this list, and I would hope that
this isn't how most people are treated. While I have
met nothing but sensible and friendly folks from all
over the world playing this game, Middle Earth lovers
all of them (not necessarily just Tolkein lovers, but
lovers of all ME lore), I've not yet met those who are
as judgemental and condescending as this. I hope this
ends here, and that this list is used to talk sensibly
and amiably about Tolkein, Middle earth, and the
Play-by-(e)mail game we play. I have no problem with
arguments and discussions, but there is a general way
people should behave, especially those that have such
in common (not necessarily implying everyone has to
agree on everything of course, but responding like
this is, in my view, inappropriate). I hope someone
else can reassure me that this type of response is not
the usual. If not, I may just as well remove myself
with haste.

JB

--- Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
wrote:

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's
height

> If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be
so
> wise (note the word "appear")?

RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like
you're making it up. That's
not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.
>
> And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman
were
> Maia, not men (original names of Ol�rin and
Curumo),
> sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
> millennium of the Third Age. Remember what
happened
> when Saruman died - clearly not men.

RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs
to mind. And what's that
got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as
wizards, both Gandalf
and Saruman could change their appearance, and
therefore by implication
their height, to suit any situation they found
themselves in.
>
> And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home,
get
> a dog :slight_smile:
>
> JB

RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with
anyway.
>
>
> — Din <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > — Chris <cmeyer@houston.rr.com> wrote: > Hello
> > all,
> > >
> > > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > > couldn't resist asking
> > > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > > lore…
> > >
> > > Here is what he had to say:
> > >
> > > As a result of a few questions I have focused
turn
> > > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was,
the
> > > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> > Council
> > > and not Gandalf.
> >
> > even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> > Council
> > - who wants to be the front man for a
anti-sauron
> > group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still
around
> > and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to
work
> > in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> > being
> > somewhere else, and never stay too long in one
spot.
> >
> > :slight_smile:
> >
> > but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height
?
> > I'll
> > accept there might be something in the books on
> > Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
> >
> > Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> > always
> > find their way home ???
> >
> > :slight_smile:
> >
> > thanks
> > din
> >
> > p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> > smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> > books.
> > The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> > mind,
> > ie check the lifespans after the high humans
started
> > breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> > that
> > Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are
great',
> > rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
> >
> > I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> > second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> > greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> > ability.
> >
> >
> > pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> > Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> > treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke.
I
> > wonder if the UK will send him back as
punishment ?
> >
> >
>

____________________________________________________________________________

_
> > http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
> > - It's time you had your business online!
> >
>
>
> =====
> john_h_briggs@yahoo.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin
Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs to mind. And

what's that

got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as wizards, both

Gandalf

and Saruman could change their appearance, and therefore by

implication

their height, to suit any situation they found themselves in.

what? run that logic by me again please......

where in the books did this happen?

question on ICE.... where do they base all their info on? Or do they
just make it up to?

Tolkien is quite clear, Gandalf is taller than Elrond and Aragorn.
Going on Gimli's description (we have nothing else), Saruman is around
about the same height. I don't remember any references anywhere saying
Gandalf and Saruman could shrink and expand themselves (and we could
debate this topic to the full as well, frankly they didn't do too much
spell casting in the books, especially when you consider what
Galadriel was capable off).

The key question regarding Gandalf's height
is, what reference can your friend cite for
his information? Apparently the LOTR movie
makers believe that 8' is correct, I'd like
to have some hard data I could point to,
if only for my own satisfaction, that proves
otherwise...

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Chris" <cmeyer@h...> wrote:

···

Hello all,

I hate to open this can of worms again, but I couldn't resist asking
a member of our team who prides himself on ME lore...

Here is what he had to say:

As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
and not Gandalf.

The answer to the first one is pretty easy. While his
hat can be deceptive, Gandalf's height at 6'4'
actually makes him the shortest of the Istari (Alatar
is 6'7", Pallando 6'6", Saruman 6'7", Radagast 6'5").
As to why he is second of the Ishtai, it probably goes
back to when Manwe chose him to journey to
Middle-earth despite his own misgivings about his own
ability. It was this, and the fact tha Gandalf never
aspired to lead as a master (preferring to work with
those he befriends), that caused him to yield to
Saruman's desire to lead their order. This all ties in
because he quickly befriends the Elves (especially the
Noldo), and when the Wizards arrived in Middle-earth
after the end of the first millennium of the Third
Age, none knew of their mission but Círdan the
Shipwright, Lord of the Grey Havens where their ships
put in. Though Saruman was at that time the
acknowledged leader of the Wizards, Círdan saw that
Gandalf was in fact the greater, and secretly gave him
the Red Ring Narya to aid him in his quest.

In addition to not having a challenge by Gandalf,
Saruman was chosen to lead the order because for 1400
years before the White Council was formed, Saruman had
traveled Middle-Earth and studied the ways of the
minions of evil and researched their tools and
methods. Because of this expertise, he was selected
to head the Council (perhaps his downfall began long,
long ago ... before he settled at Angrenost and peered
into the Palantir?). Anyway, I hope this answered
your questions.

In Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle Earth" it says the Gandalf the Grey (not White) looked like a grey cloaked, grey-haired bent old man, except when he was trying to make an impression.

At the beginning of "The Hobbit" Bilbo does not recognise Gandalf, although he has seen him before. I think Bilbo would probably remember an eight foot tall man.

I'm sure there are other references as well, if I can find them

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: JeremyRichman@compuserve.com
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 6:17 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Off-topic = Gandalf's height

  The key question regarding Gandalf's height
  is, what reference can your friend cite for
  his information? Apparently the LOTR movie
  makers believe that 8' is correct, I'd like
  to have some hard data I could point to,
  if only for my own satisfaction, that proves
  otherwise...

  Jeremy

  --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Chris" <cmeyer@h...> wrote:
  > Hello all,
  >
  > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I couldn't resist asking
  > a member of our team who prides himself on ME lore...
  >
  > Here is what he had to say:
  >
  > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
  > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
  > other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
  > and not Gandalf.
  >
  > The answer to the first one is pretty easy. While his
  > hat can be deceptive, Gandalf's height at 6'4'
  > actually makes him the shortest of the Istari (Alatar
  > is 6'7", Pallando 6'6", Saruman 6'7", Radagast 6'5").
  > As to why he is second of the Ishtai, it probably goes
  > back to when Manwe chose him to journey to
  > Middle-earth despite his own misgivings about his own
  > ability. It was this, and the fact tha Gandalf never
  > aspired to lead as a master (preferring to work with
  > those he befriends), that caused him to yield to
  > Saruman's desire to lead their order. This all ties in
  > because he quickly befriends the Elves (especially the
  > Noldo), and when the Wizards arrived in Middle-earth
  > after the end of the first millennium of the Third
  > Age, none knew of their mission but Círdan the
  > Shipwright, Lord of the Grey Havens where their ships
  > put in. Though Saruman was at that time the
  > acknowledged leader of the Wizards, Círdan saw that
  > Gandalf was in fact the greater, and secretly gave him
  > the Red Ring Narya to aid him in his quest.
  >
  > In addition to not having a challenge by Gandalf,
  > Saruman was chosen to lead the order because for 1400
  > years before the White Council was formed, Saruman had
  > traveled Middle-Earth and studied the ways of the
  > minions of evil and researched their tools and
  > methods. Because of this expertise, he was selected
  > to head the Council (perhaps his downfall began long,
  > long ago ... before he settled at Angrenost and peered
  > into the Palantir?). Anyway, I hope this answered
  > your questions.

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--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Richard Farrer" <richard@r...> wrote:

In Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle Earth" it says the
Gandalf the Grey (not White) looked like a grey cloaked, grey-
haired bent old man, except when he was trying to make an
impression.

At the beginning of "The Hobbit" Bilbo does not recognise Gandalf,
although he has seen him before. I think Bilbo would probably
remember an eight foot tall man.

Unless such men were common in Bilbo's world.

  From: JeremyRichman@c...
  To: mepbmlist@y...
  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 6:17 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Off-topic = Gandalf's height

  The key question regarding Gandalf's height
  is, what reference can your friend cite for
  his information? Apparently the LOTR movie
  makers believe that 8' is correct, I'd like
  to have some hard data I could point to,
  if only for my own satisfaction, that proves
  otherwise...

The movies could easily be hung on a lot of nit-picky points. I
don't recall seeing where Gandalf is said to be 8' tall in any spy
report, but I would guess that he might do some growing in the
controversial battle with the Wargs in Hollin. Except for the full
plate armor and the nature of Saruman's Uruk-hai, I don't have any
serious reservations about the movies. And neither of those
reservations are sufficient for me to want to avoid the movies.

  --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Chris" <cmeyer@h...> wrote:
  > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
  > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
  > other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
  > and not Gandalf.
  >
  > The answer to the first one is pretty easy. While his
  > hat can be deceptive, Gandalf's height at 6'4'
  > actually makes him the shortest of the Istari (Alatar
  > is 6'7", Pallando 6'6", Saruman 6'7", Radagast 6'5").

Gandalf was shorter than Aragorn, who is said to have been 6'4" tall
in Unfinished Tales. I have never seen any heights for the other
Istari, and these heights look like they may have come from ICE. I
would be interested in seeing the source of these heights.

I don't know why Saruman SHOULD be greater than Gandalf, but Gandalf
himself noted (at the Council of Elrond) that Saruman was the
greatest of their order. JRRT mentions (in one of the Istari essays)
that "Saruman is said (e.g., by Gandalf himself) to have been the
chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinorean stature than the
others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order."

"Valinorean stature" seems to imply a measure of power or personal
strength, rather than something like height. Saruman is elsewhere
said to be the eldest of the Order, that is, the first to arrive in
Middle-earth. So it may be that the Valar sent their strongest
emissary first, and therefore he was perceived to be the leader
because of his pre-eminence in "age" and power.

Hope people don't mind my intrusion. I normally just lurk here, but
got interested in this thread. To be honest, I have little time for
extended discussion these days. I've even become almost completely
absent on my own forums.

···

  ----- Original Message -----

Except for the full
plate armor and the nature of Saruman's Uruk-hai, I
don't have any
serious reservations about the movies.

what ??? i'm seen nothing much except teasers in the
papers (today's was typical as it showed a picture of
arwen using a sword, two hobbits, and some orcs. It
also said that its expected to do well in cannes.

  And neither

of those
reservations are sufficient for me to want to avoid
the movies.

the use of armour in movies is always a weak point.
IMO armour was 'very heavy', and today's actors can't
work if they wear the real things. So they use light
stuff that made to look heavy, or they just use pieces
of light stuff to signify 'we are wearing armour, so
we are the knights, not the peasants'.

thanks
din

I don't know why Saruman SHOULD be greater than
Gandalf,

its a 50-50 bet (assume they are not the same size).
But since gandalf wanders around a lot, was stressed
out about the world, and didn't care about what people
thought about him, then I image him to be someone who
leans on his staff when he walks (its also easier to
walk around when you are using a stick).

Saruman however was the leader of the istari. No
sloughing for him. I imaging him to be a proud man,
someone who looks down on everyone around him. And I
think we would try to stand tall so that he could
physically look down on others.

I also think that the forms that gandalf and saurman
used in middle earth were not their real forms. Given
they were haved picked a form to travel around with
(or at least veto's a form they didn't like), then I
can't imaging saruman the proud picking a smaller size
than the others.

but Gandalf

himself noted (at the Council of Elrond) that
Saruman was the
greatest of their order. JRRT mentions (in one of
the Istari essays)
that "Saruman is said (e.g., by Gandalf himself) to
have been the
chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinorean
stature than the
others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order."

"Valinorean stature" seems to imply a measure of
power or personal
strength, rather than something like height.

yeap.

Saruman is elsewhere
said to be the eldest of the Order, that is, the
first to arrive in
Middle-earth. So it may be that the Valar sent
their strongest
emissary first, and therefore he was perceived to be
the leader
because of his pre-eminence in "age" and power.

sounds good, except that saruman, gandalf (and I think
the others) all landed on middle earth together. I
think technically saurman was first off the boat, and
first to touch the land. But basically they came as a
group.

And I think saurman was the first since he had the
greatest mind. His voice was also pretty good, but
IMO, gandalf would have no hope in making the ring
that saruman was able to do.

thanks
din

···

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>
> Except for the full
> plate armor and the nature of Saruman's Uruk-hai, I
> don't have any
> serious reservations about the movies.

what ??? i'm seen nothing much except teasers in the
papers (today's was typical as it showed a picture of
arwen using a sword, two hobbits, and some orcs. It
also said that its expected to do well in cannes.

RD: This is very serious. Arwen using a sword is bad enough, but how was
she 'using' two hobbits and some orcs? The mind boggles.

Richard.

  And neither
> of those
> reservations are sufficient for me to want to avoid
> the movies.
>

the use of armour in movies is always a weak point.
IMO armour was 'very heavy', and today's actors can't
work if they wear the real things. So they use light
stuff that made to look heavy, or they just use pieces
of light stuff to signify 'we are wearing armour, so
we are the knights, not the peasants'.

RD: Good point. Did you notice that in 'Gladiator' Maximus (Russell Crowe)
never wore a helmet even in the early scenes where he was a general in Roman
army? If the legionaries wore helmets, why on earth not the general, whom I
would expect to be not only the best armed and armoured person in the army,
but also wear a scarlet plume so that his troops could recognise him and
rally to him at need?

I have even seen the same phenomenom in live medieval re-enactments.
Mounted knights charge at each other wearing mail or plate armour but no
helmet! I expect helmets are uncomfortable to wear but it is unhistorical,
and spoils the entire look of the thing, to see 'knights' fighting helmless.

On a practical note, modern soldiers have discarded all armour EXCEPT the
helmet, so why is it so hard to re-create this on film or in live
re-enactments?

I wonder, do the make-up artists and other backroom boys (and girls) in film
and theatre add their own 'artistic' interpretations? Tolkien is very clear
that all Dwarves were bearded, but in the play 'The Hobbit' the Dwarves
didn't have a beard between them. How hard would it have been to rectify
this?

Final ramble: like GSI, the play gave zero credit to Beorn the Woodman for
single-handedly turning the tide of the Battle of Five armies. Sure the
play did justice to Thorin, but where the hell was Beorn? The image of
Beorn, in his changed shape of a huge black bear, scattering the goblin
hordes was absolutely MADE for theatre. It's also high time that GSI
recognised, in the interests of both historical accuracy and game balance,
that Beorn that should be able to make mincemeat of any goblin who crossed
his path!

Richard.

.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@yahoo.com.au>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Off-topic = Gandalf's height

thanks
din

>
> I don't know why Saruman SHOULD be greater than
> Gandalf,

its a 50-50 bet (assume they are not the same size).
But since gandalf wanders around a lot, was stressed
out about the world, and didn't care about what people
thought about him, then I image him to be someone who
leans on his staff when he walks (its also easier to
walk around when you are using a stick).

Saruman however was the leader of the istari. No
sloughing for him. I imaging him to be a proud man,
someone who looks down on everyone around him. And I
think we would try to stand tall so that he could
physically look down on others.

I also think that the forms that gandalf and saurman
used in middle earth were not their real forms. Given
they were haved picked a form to travel around with
(or at least veto's a form they didn't like), then I
can't imaging saruman the proud picking a smaller size
than the others.

but Gandalf
> himself noted (at the Council of Elrond) that
> Saruman was the
> greatest of their order. JRRT mentions (in one of
> the Istari essays)
> that "Saruman is said (e.g., by Gandalf himself) to
> have been the
> chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinorean
> stature than the
> others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order."
>
> "Valinorean stature" seems to imply a measure of
> power or personal
> strength, rather than something like height.

yeap.

> Saruman is elsewhere
> said to be the eldest of the Order, that is, the
> first to arrive in
> Middle-earth. So it may be that the Valar sent
> their strongest
> emissary first, and therefore he was perceived to be
> the leader
> because of his pre-eminence in "age" and power.

sounds good, except that saruman, gandalf (and I think
the others) all landed on middle earth together. I
think technically saurman was first off the boat, and
first to touch the land. But basically they came as a
group.

And I think saurman was the first since he had the
greatest mind. His voice was also pretty good, but
IMO, gandalf would have no hope in making the ring
that saruman was able to do.

thanks
din

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--- In mepbmlist@y..., Din <din_ohtar@y...> wrote:

  And neither of those reservations are sufficient for me to want

to avoid

> the movies.
>

the use of armour in movies is always a weak point.
IMO armour was 'very heavy', and today's actors can't
work if they wear the real things. So they use light
stuff that made to look heavy, or they just use pieces
of light stuff to signify 'we are wearing armour, so
we are the knights, not the peasants'.

Well, here is a tidbit you won't find anywhere else. Reportedly
(privately, that is), Viggo Mortensen was the only actor to use a
real sword and wear real armor. Now, my source claims to have met
Peter Jackson more than once (I've got a couple of pictures of them
together) and he was given a tour of one of the sets and got to ask
some questions.

However, I've spoken with other people who have worked on the movies,
and all sources say the weapons were very real. Aragorn's sword,
however, is special. I had some discussions with an artist at Weta
via email about Aragorn's sword a couple of years ago. It appears to
me that his sword may owe something to those discussions (but short
of whomever was involved in designing the sword confirming that, I'll
never know for sure).

> Saruman is elsewhere said to be the eldest of the Order, that is,

the

> first to arrive in Middle-earth. So it may be that the Valar sent
> their strongest emissary first, and therefore he was perceived to

be

> the leader because of his pre-eminence in "age" and power.

sounds good, except that saruman, gandalf (and I think
the others) all landed on middle earth together. I
think technically saurman was first off the boat, and
first to touch the land. But basically they came as a
group.

They did not all come together. There are various accounts of how
they arrived, but nowhere does Tolkien write that they came more than
two together. Gandalf, in any event, is always stated to have
arrived last (and then Cirdan just up and gave him a Ring of Power).

Well, here is a tidbit you won't find anywhere else.
Reportedly
(privately, that is), Viggo Mortensen was the only
actor to use a
real sword and wear real armor.

well done. I've worn chain mail myself (my brother use
to be into that sort of stuff), and its 'very heavy'.
I would have to have to fight in it.

I've worn chain mail, a real shield, and a real sword.
Serious puff-puff (and i'm not fully armoured). So I
take my hat off to anyone else who can work with the
real stuff.

They did not all come together. There are various
accounts of how
they arrived, but nowhere does Tolkien write that
they came more than
two together.

I know they were grouped in terms of two. I'll check
later, but I always assumed the valar decided on a
plan to combat sauron (and marching over in war wasn't
it). 7 spirits were chosen. They were paired to each
other (and since they had an odd number, gandalf had
no pair). They landed together, and then went off to
do their own thing. A seperate question was 'what
happened to the one who loved the birds ?'.

but since not much is know about the majority of them,
it could be that they landed at seperate times.

Gandalf, in any event, is always
stated to have
arrived last (and then Cirdan just up and gave him a
Ring of Power).

that's since cirdan was one smart cookie, and saw
something in him that the didn't see in others.

thanks
din

···

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