Off Topic: Who is the greatest nation? Ireland?

Winn_Keathley · November 26, 2001, 5:40am

For that matter, the concept of "Nation" wasn't really around in the 12th century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued that nations are a modern phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th centuries. The average Irish of the time would have owed most of their allegiance to their local villages, just as would their British invaders. The question of whether the term Nation requires an existing state with fixed borders is still disputable in Political Science/International affairs circles (I took a graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be argued that the Irish had a nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity distinguishing them as a separate group) before being granted independance, just not a nation-state.

Winn

···

All I said was, there was no such thing as an Irish nation until the British
granted independence to Eire. No judgements, no saying they deserved it,
just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. End of story.

Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I write. Actually, no don't,
otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about!

Richard.

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richard_devereux · November 26, 2001, 6:18pm

For that matter, the concept of "Nation" wasn't really around in the 12th
century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued that nations are a

modern

phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th centuries. The average

Irish

of the time would have owed most of their allegiance to their local
villages, just as would their British invaders. The question of whether

the

term Nation requires an existing state with fixed borders is still
disputable in Political Science/International affairs circles (I took a
graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be argued that the Irish had

a

nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity distinguishing them as

a

separate group) before being granted independance, just not a

nation-state.

Winn

RD: Good point Winn.

I was using the term "nation" to mean a political unit. The biggest
political unit in Ireland prior to its conquest by Norman-led Brits was
provinces like Ulster and Connaught. Compare this to England in the same
period which had been a kingdom since the time of Alfred the Great and
arguably a nation from that time on.

There is nothing like war against a foreign power to unite people. The
English of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia etc fought each other until the
Danish invasions. The Irish fought each other until the British conquest.
The different Afghan tribes fought each other for centuries until they were
invaded by foreigners. They saw off Alexander the Great, the British Raj
and most recently the Russians. Will they unite this time? Don't hold your
breath.

Richard.

>All I said was, there was no such thing as an Irish nation until the
>British
>granted independence to Eire. No judgements, no saying they deserved it,
>just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. End of story.
>
>Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I write. Actually, no

don't,

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Winn Keathley <Gnaeus@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the greatest nation? Ireland?

>otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about!
>
>Richard.

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Briggs · November 26, 2001, 7:55pm

My vote is Sweden. I mean seriously ... 12 months of
Paternity leave? They got it right!

JB

···

--- richard devereux <r.devereux@virgin.net> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Winn Keathley <Gnaeus@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the
greatest nation? Ireland?

> For that matter, the concept of "Nation" wasn't
really around in the 12th
> century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued
that nations are a
modern
> phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th
centuries. The average
Irish
> of the time would have owed most of their
allegiance to their local
> villages, just as would their British invaders.
The question of whether
the
> term Nation requires an existing state with fixed
borders is still
> disputable in Political Science/International
affairs circles (I took a
> graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be
argued that the Irish had
a
> nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity
distinguishing them as
a
> separate group) before being granted independance,
just not a
nation-state.
>
> Winn

RD: Good point Winn.

I was using the term "nation" to mean a political
unit. The biggest
political unit in Ireland prior to its conquest by
Norman-led Brits was
provinces like Ulster and Connaught. Compare this
to England in the same
period which had been a kingdom since the time of
Alfred the Great and
arguably a nation from that time on.

There is nothing like war against a foreign power to
unite people. The
English of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia etc fought
each other until the
Danish invasions. The Irish fought each other until
the British conquest.
The different Afghan tribes fought each other for
centuries until they were
invaded by foreigners. They saw off Alexander the
Great, the British Raj
and most recently the Russians. Will they unite
this time? Don't hold your
breath.

Richard.
>
> >All I said was, there was no such thing as an
Irish nation until the
> >British
> >granted independence to Eire. No judgements, no
saying they deserved it,
> >just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event.
End of story.
> >
> >Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I
write. Actually, no
don't,
> >otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about!
> >
> >Richard.
>
>

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57dun · November 26, 2001, 8:21pm

Hey! I've got 12 months in Canada! Of course, I can only
receive benefits equal to 55% of my regular wages for 35
weeks........what are the benefits in Sweden? Can I qualify
for them by December 17..!!!???

Brad soon Dad

···

--- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
My vote is Sweden.  I mean seriously ... 12 months of 
Paternity leave?  They got it right! 
 
JB 
 
--- richard devereux <r.devereux@virgin.net> wrote: 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Winn Keathley <Gnaeus@hotmail.com> 
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:40 AM 
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the 
> greatest nation? Ireland? 
> 
> 
> > For that matter, the concept of "Nation" wasn't 
> really around in the 12th 
> > century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued 
> that nations are a 
> modern 
> > phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th 
> centuries. The average 
> Irish 
> > of the time would have owed most of their 
> allegiance to their local 
> > villages, just as would their British invaders. 
> The question of whether 
> the 
> > term Nation requires an existing state with fixed 
> borders is still 
> > disputable in Political Science/International 
> affairs circles (I took a 
> > graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be 
> argued that the Irish had 
> a 
> > nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity 
> distinguishing them as 
> a 
> > separate group) before being granted independance, 
> just not a 
> nation-state. 
> > 
> > Winn 
> 
> RD: Good point Winn. 
> 
> I was using the term "nation" to mean a political 
> unit.  The biggest 
> political unit in Ireland prior to its conquest by 
> Norman-led Brits was 
> provinces like Ulster and Connaught.  Compare this 
> to England in the same 
> period which had been a kingdom since the time of 
> Alfred the Great and 
> arguably a nation from that time on. 
> 
> There is nothing like war against a foreign power to 
> unite people.  The 
> English of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia etc fought 
> each other until the 
> Danish invasions.  The Irish fought each other until 
> the British conquest. 
> The different Afghan tribes fought each other for 
> centuries until they were 
> invaded by foreigners.  They saw off Alexander the 
> Great, the British Raj 
> and most recently the Russians.  Will they unite 
> this time?  Don't hold your 
> breath. 
> 
> Richard. 
> > 
> > >All I said was, there was no such thing as an 
> Irish nation until the 
> > >British 
> > >granted independence to Eire.  No judgements, no 
> saying they deserved it, 
> > >just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. 
> End of story. 
> > > 
> > >Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I 
> write.  Actually, no 
> don't, 
> > >otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about! 
> > > 
> > >Richard. 
> > 
> > 
> 
_________________________________________________________________ 
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
> <a
href="http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp">http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</a> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone 
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> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
 
 
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Fierein · November 26, 2001, 8:48pm

Scarily enough I would vote for Sweden too.. I actually support their teams
instead of the Scotland or England at almost anything. But then again I am a
little crazy...

Thomas Crane

P.S. Is there actually any Free nation still playing in Game 78 ? I cant
remember the last time I actually say a Free Army anywhere near any of my
Pop Centres and were only on Turn 9. Not only that but we seem to have
collected almost all the usual decent items. (For something to do I have had
to collect Good Aligned Items....)

Long Rider (And current Cloud Lord)

···

My vote is Sweden. I mean seriously ... 12 months of
Paternity leave? They got it right!

JB

Kevin · November 26, 2001, 9:19pm

My vote would be Denmark. When I was 22, I was driving around Odense (it
has a confusing one way system - and they drive on the wrong side of the
road over there). I accidentaly hit a guy on a push bike with my car and
knocked him off. He got up off the floor, went bright red and swore at me
in danish. I was absolutely crapping myself!

When I got out the car and apologised (in english) he changed completely!
It was almost like the sketch where Eric Idle in 'Clockwise' kept
apologising for getting run over. The poor guy apologised for getting in
my way! If it'd been the USA I'd have been sued for a few
million-gazillion dollars.

Anyway, he wasn't hurt (much) and I managed to staunch the bleeding with
some plasters. I told him I was a bit lost so he hopped back on his bike
(badly scratched and a bit dented by now) and led me to my hotel! Then,
when I had no change for the car park - he gave me the money! (About £5)
Unbelievable bloke.

I reckon they're so friendly because it's a penance for raping and
pillaging Northern Europe in the middle ages.

Never been to Sweden - but I suppose they're the same?

Kev

···

At 20:48 26/11/01 -0000, you wrote:

Scarily enough I would vote for Sweden too.. I actually support their teams
instead of the Scotland or England at almost anything. But then again I am a
little crazy...

Thomas Crane

P.S. Is there actually any Free nation still playing in Game 78 ? I cant
remember the last time I actually say a Free Army anywhere near any of my
Pop Centres and were only on Turn 9. Not only that but we seem to have
collected almost all the usual decent items. (For something to do I have had
to collect Good Aligned Items....)

Long Rider (And current Cloud Lord)

I mean seriously ... 12 months of
They got it right!

JB

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57dun · November 26, 2001, 9:35pm

Interesting new thread...

One person makes a nation great?

Well, if that's the criteria, I perfer Cardolan. Just
last week, a crippled and blind sheep-herder saved my
nation thousands in gold wages and food rations by
advising my large army that Lord Pelendur was marshalling
forces for a last ditch attempt to defend Tharbad from
invaders, and, more importantly, that Tharbad was "That way!".

Yup, greatest nation in the world.

Arfanhil

···

--- Kevin <kevin@bobbins71.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
My vote would be Denmark.  When I was 22, I was driving around
Odense  (it 
has a confusing one way system - and they drive on the wrong side of
the 
road over there).  I accidentaly hit a guy on a push bike with my
car and 
knocked him off.  He got up off the floor, went bright red and
swore at me 
in danish.  I was absolutely crapping myself! 
 
When I got out the car and apologised (in english) he changed
completely! 
It was almost like the sketch where Eric Idle in 'Clockwise' kept 
apologising for getting run over.  The poor guy apologised for
getting in 
my way!  If it'd been the USA I'd have been sued for a few 
million-gazillion dollars. 
 
Anyway, he wasn't hurt (much) and I managed to staunch the bleeding
with 
some plasters.  I told him I was a bit lost so he hopped back on
his bike 
(badly scratched and a bit dented by now) and led me to my hotel! 
Then, 
when I had no change for the car park - he gave me the money! 
(About �5) 
Unbelievable bloke. 
 
I reckon they're so friendly because it's a penance for raping and 
pillaging Northern Europe in the middle ages. 
 
Never been to Sweden - but I suppose they're the same? 
 
Kev 
 
 
 
 
 
 
At 20:48 26/11/01 -0000, you wrote: 
>  Scarily enough I would vote for Sweden too.. I actually
support their teams 
> instead of the Scotland or England at almost anything. But then
again I am a 
> little crazy... 
> 
> Thomas Crane 
> 
> P.S. Is there actually any Free nation still playing in Game 78 ?
I cant 
> remember the last time I actually say a Free Army anywhere near
any of my 
> Pop Centres and were only on Turn 9. Not only that but we seem to
have 
> collected almost all the usual decent items. (For something to do
I have had 
> to collect Good Aligned Items....) 
> 
> Long Rider (And current Cloud Lord) 
> 
>>  I mean seriously ... 12 months of 
>>  They got it right! 
>> 
>> JB 
> 
> 
>   
>      Yahoo! Groups
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>  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone 
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richard_devereux · November 27, 2001, 7:29pm

NO - SWEDEN

Hey! I've got 12 months in Canada! Of course, I can only
receive benefits equal to 55% of my regular wages for 35
weeks........what are the benefits in Sweden? Can I qualify
for them by December 17..!!!???

Brad soon Dad

RD: Don't such low benefits defeat the object? If you can support your
family for 12 months on half wages you must be on damn good money!

Paternity leave is political correctness gone mad. We've managed for
thousands of years without paternity leave, why the hell do we need it now?
Since when has it been a full-time job for two people to look after a baby?
If the mother needs a bit of extra help while the father's at work, that's
what grandparents are for. I won't mention social services, oops, I just
did.

What about single mothers? They don't get the benefit of partner taking
paid leave to help them with baby. I'm surprised the pc brigade haven't
caught onto that!

Besides, guys, WAKE UP! How many of you really honestly WANT a year's
paternity leave? Think about it. You're gonna be expected to spend that
year clearing up excrement and vomit, dusting, hoovering, washing, ironing,
bedmaking, cooking, washing up, shopping and then getting nagged because you
forgot something or you spent too much or took too long. I tell you, after
a week of that you'll be begging to go back to work for a rest!

Good luck anyway to Brad and all expectant fathers. Yer gonna need it!

Richard.

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
My vote is Sweden.  I mean seriously ... 12 months of 
Paternity leave?  They got it right! 
 
JB 
 
--- richard devereux <r.devereux@virgin.net> wrote: 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Winn Keathley <Gnaeus@hotmail.com> 
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:40 AM 
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the 
> greatest nation? Ireland? 
> 
> 
> > For that matter, the concept of "Nation" wasn't 
> really around in the 12th 
> > century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued 
> that nations are a 
> modern 
> > phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th 
> centuries. The average 
> Irish 
> > of the time would have owed most of their 
> allegiance to their local 
> > villages, just as would their British invaders. 
> The question of whether 
> the 
> > term Nation requires an existing state with fixed 
> borders is still 
> > disputable in Political Science/International 
> affairs circles (I took a 
> > graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be 
> argued that the Irish had 
> a 
> > nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity 
> distinguishing them as 
> a 
> > separate group) before being granted independance, 
> just not a 
> nation-state. 
> > 
> > Winn 
> 
> RD: Good point Winn. 
> 
> I was using the term "nation" to mean a political 
> unit.  The biggest 
> political unit in Ireland prior to its conquest by 
> Norman-led Brits was 
> provinces like Ulster and Connaught.  Compare this 
> to England in the same 
> period which had been a kingdom since the time of 
> Alfred the Great and 
> arguably a nation from that time on. 
> 
> There is nothing like war against a foreign power to 
> unite people.  The 
> English of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia etc fought 
> each other until the 
> Danish invasions.  The Irish fought each other until 
> the British conquest. 
> The different Afghan tribes fought each other for 
> centuries until they were 
> invaded by foreigners.  They saw off Alexander the 
> Great, the British Raj 
> and most recently the Russians.  Will they unite 
> this time?  Don't hold your 
> breath. 
> 
> Richard. 
> > 
> > >All I said was, there was no such thing as an 
> Irish nation until the 
> > >British 
> > >granted independence to Eire.  No judgements, no 
> saying they deserved it, 
> > >just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. 
> End of story. 
> > > 
> > >Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I 
> write.  Actually, no 
> don't, 
> > >otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about! 
> > > 
> > >Richard. 
> > 
> > 
> 
_________________________________________________________________ 
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
> <a

href="http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp">http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</a>

> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone 
> > To Unsubscribe: <a
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> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> <a

href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</

> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
 
 
===== 
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···

----- Original Message -----
From: Player <pbmnoot@yahoo.ca>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the greatest nation? Ireland? -

--- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com> wrote:

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zubla2001 · November 27, 2001, 9:47pm

Dwarves Rule!!! Dwarves Rule!!! Dwarves Rule!!!

If'n youse guys spent your time like warriors,
ya'know, like split'n skulls an' drink'n, ya wouldn't
have to worry about all dis tripe.

Bronx da Dwarf
Dwarves Rule!!! an' i'm only say'n it cause its true!

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "richard devereux" <r.devereux@v...> wrote:

From: Player <pbmnoot@y...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the greatest nation?

Ireland? -

NO - SWEDEN

> Hey! I've got 12 months in Canada! Of course, I can only
> receive benefits equal to 55% of my regular wages for 35
> weeks........what are the benefits in Sweden? Can I qualify
> for them by December 17..!!!???
>
> Brad soon Dad

RD: Don't such low benefits defeat the object? If you can support

your

family for 12 months on half wages you must be on damn good money!

Paternity leave is political correctness gone mad. We've managed

for

thousands of years without paternity leave, why the hell do we need

it now?

Since when has it been a full-time job for two people to look after

a baby?

If the mother needs a bit of extra help while the father's at work,

that's

what grandparents are for. I won't mention social services, oops,

I just

did.

What about single mothers? They don't get the benefit of partner

taking

paid leave to help them with baby. I'm surprised the pc brigade

haven't

caught onto that!

Besides, guys, WAKE UP! How many of you really honestly WANT a

year's

paternity leave? Think about it. You're gonna be expected to

spend that

year clearing up excrement and vomit, dusting, hoovering, washing,

ironing,

bedmaking, cooking, washing up, shopping and then getting nagged

because you

forgot something or you spent too much or took too long. I tell

you, after

a week of that you'll be begging to go back to work for a rest!

Good luck anyway to Brad and all expectant fathers. Yer gonna need

it!

Richard.

>
> --- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@y...> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
> <tt>
> My vote is Sweden.  I mean seriously ... 12 months of 
> Paternity leave?  They got it right! 
> 
> JB 
> 
> --- richard devereux r.devereux@v... wrote: 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Winn Keathley Gnaeus@h... 
> > To: mepbmlist@y... 
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:40 AM 
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the 
> > greatest nation? Ireland? 
> > 
> > 
> > > For that matter, the concept of "Nation"

wasn't

> > really around in the 12th 
> > > century. A lot of scholars would (and have) argued 
> > that nations are a 
> > modern 
> > > phenomenon, appearing in about the 18th to 19th 
> > centuries. The average 
> > Irish 
> > > of the time would have owed most of their 
> > allegiance to their local 
> > > villages, just as would their British invaders. 
> > The question of whether 
> > the 
> > > term Nation requires an existing state with fixed 
> > borders is still 
> > > disputable in Political Science/International 
> > affairs circles (I took a 
> > > graduate level class in it.) If not, it could be 
> > argued that the Irish had 
> > a 
> > > nation (meaning roughly, a shared popular identity 
> > distinguishing them as 
> > a 
> > > separate group) before being granted independance, 
> > just not a 
> > nation-state. 
> > > 
> > > Winn 
> > 
> > RD: Good point Winn. 
> > 
> > I was using the term "nation" to mean a

political

> > unit.  The biggest 
> > political unit in Ireland prior to its conquest by 
> > Norman-led Brits was 
> > provinces like Ulster and Connaught.  Compare this 
> > to England in the same 
> > period which had been a kingdom since the time of 
> > Alfred the Great and 
> > arguably a nation from that time on. 
> > 
> > There is nothing like war against a foreign power to 
> > unite people.  The 
> > English of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia etc fought 
> > each other until the 
> > Danish invasions.  The Irish fought each other until 
> > the British conquest. 
> > The different Afghan tribes fought each other for 
> > centuries until they were 
> > invaded by foreigners.  They saw off Alexander the 
> > Great, the British Raj 
> > and most recently the Russians.  Will they unite 
> > this time?  Don't hold your 
> > breath. 
> > 
> > Richard. 
> > > 
> > > >All I said was, there was no such thing as an 
> > Irish nation until the 
> > > >British 
> > > >granted independence to Eire.  No judgements,

no

> > saying they deserved it, 
> > > >just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. 
> > End of story. 
> > > > 
> > > >Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I 
> > write.  Actually, no 
> > don't, 
> > > >otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about! 
> > > > 
> > > >Richard. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
>

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----- Original Message -----
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