OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER

mepbmlist
#1

Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

In the first movie, I understood why there were so many changes. More Arwin for more Heroic Woman scenes. Cool. I get it. Moving dialog from one place to another or changing the character that delivers the lines to make the movie flow better. Great. Killing the troll to give climax to the battle scene. Great. (I never really liked the wall walking orcs or the scene where the fellowship gets sourrounded or the falling staircase scenes, but they weren't that big a deal.)

That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers. SPOILER ALERT!!!

What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene or the "Elrond talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival of the ents like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time" thingy like in the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to the last minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond to show up with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of Pelenor fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor take Frodo to Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like the book? That one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no need for that scene.

One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a distance, but they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What was the purpose of that stupid scene?

ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose. Unless they are to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they couldn't, could they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during the last 1/3rd of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found myself worried about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much more they would screw with it.

All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as the first simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever created".

So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders at Helm's Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with stuff for no reason?

···

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#2

That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers.
SPOILER ALERT!!!

What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene
or the "Elrond
talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

DC : that change was not that bad

Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the
arrival of the ents
like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time"
thingy like in
the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to
the last
minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need
Eomond to show up
with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of
Pelenor
fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

DC : I really hate the decision of the ents and yes they shut have arived at Helm´s Deep
allso i hate that and army of elfs artiers arived insted of the rangers

So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having
Feanor take Frodo to
Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like
the book? That
one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no
need for that
scene.

DC: I must agree that was the worst change

One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from
a distance, but
they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What
was the purpose of
that stupid scene?

DC : you coud see them i ditend fell like they was Invisibil

···

ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose.
Unless they are
to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they
couldn't, could
they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during
the last 1/3rd
of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found
myself worried
about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much
more they would
screw with it.

All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as
the first
simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever
created".

So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need
ladders at Helm's
Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with
stuff for no
reason?

____________________________________________________________
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#3

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "corsairs game 101"
<corsairs101@h...> wrote:

Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival
of the ents like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around
in time" thingy like in the book and they had to leave
the "decision of the ents" to the last minute, no time to get
to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond to show up
with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of
Pelenor fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

The battle of Helm's Deep doesn't end with the arrival of the huorns
in the book (the Ents all stay at Isengard), but with the arrival of
Gandalf and Erkenbrand's reinforcements. This happens after the
huorns has moved during the night, and blocked the escape route of
Saruman's armies except 2 paths into the forest. T

To me they more than make up for this by showing the ents attacking
Isengard, something which merited only one page or so of flashback
in the book.

So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor
take Frodo to Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden
camp like the book? That one bugs me the most of all the
changes. I really see no need for that scene.

Most probably to give Faramir a bit more screentime, and to show off
Osgiliath, which was nice enough :slight_smile:

One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a
distance, but they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility".
What was the purpose of that stupid scene?

Actually, read the description of when Aragorn and the other two
meet the Riders of Rohan, they sat on the faded grass with their
cloaks around them, and the riders passed right besides them even
tho they were looking to the sides scouting/watching and didn't see
the three wanderers untill Aragorn rose up and spoke.

So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need
ladders at Helm's Deep? See the consistancy porblems created
by screwing with stuff for no reason?

Because in Moria they faced "normal" orcs, and at Helm's deep they
faced Saruman's bred uruk-hais.

#4

I totally agree with this, point for point.
I experienced exactly the same emotions.
Movie is great, but it is not exactly Tolkien. When Jakson will be
able to create a worlds of his own without Hollywood stamps all over,
so there is a real depth in them instead of simplistic "good guy -
bad guy" - then I will respect him as I respect Tolkien.

BTW, what about Gimli "jokes"? I found them more suiting for "Rush
Hour" then this epic.

Tim Dvoskin

#5

Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

  In the first movie, I understood why there were so many changes. More Arwin
  for more Heroic Woman scenes. Cool. I get it. Moving dialog from one
  place to another or changing the character that delivers the lines to make
  the movie flow better. Great. Killing the troll to give climax to the
  battle scene. Great. (I never really liked the wall walking orcs or the
  scene where the fellowship gets sourrounded or the falling staircase scenes,
  but they weren't that big a deal.)

  That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers. SPOILER ALERT!!!

  What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene or the "Elrond
  talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

  Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival of the ents
  like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time" thingy like in
  the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to the last
  minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond to show up
  with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of Pelenor
  fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

  So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor take Frodo to
  Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like the book? That
  one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no need for that
  scene.

  One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a distance, but
  they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What was the purpose of
  that stupid scene?

  ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose. Unless they are
  to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they couldn't, could
  they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during the last 1/3rd
  of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found myself worried
  about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much more they would
  screw with it.

  All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as the first
  simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever created".

  So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders at Helm's
  Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with stuff for no
  reason?
  RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?

  As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed one!).

  OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger, heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of Moria. No walking up walls for them!

  What I don't understand is why, in the film, the elves sent a contingent of troops to Helm's Deep when they did not, in the end, make any difference to the result of the battle? Actually I do know the answer to that one - Arwen is hiding amongst them and she won't be happy to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn!

  But how the hell did the elves get to Helm's Deep before Saruman's army? The implication is that Elrond sent troops all the way from Imladris! But even if the elves marched only from Lorien, they would have been way behind the bad guys. Having an elvish force turn up alongside Eomer's army would have made more sense logistically and still brought Arwen face to face with Eowyn.

  Never mind, the battle scenes were so brilliant I can forgive lapses like that.

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: corsairs game 101
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER

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#6

So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders at Helm's
Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with stuff for no
reason?

Aside from the fact that has been mentioned that at Helms Deep it was
Uruk Hai, Different orc tribes had physical differences.

#7

That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers.

  > SPOILER ALERT!!!
  >
  > What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene
  > or the "Elrond
  > talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

  DC : that change was not that bad
  RD: Actually, yes it was, because having cut so much out of the story to make the film, to ADD unnecessary scenes WAS bad. What was gained by this - or was it the excuse to re-introduce Arwen? Must go and watch it again anyway.

  >
  > Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the
  > arrival of the ents
  > like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time"
  > thingy like in
  > the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to
  > the last
  > minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need
  > Eomond to show up
  > with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of
  > Pelenor
  > fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

  DC : I really hate the decision of the ents and yes they shut have arived at Helm´s Deep
  allso i hate that and army of elfs artiers arived insted of the rangers

  RD: Probably a time-saver. Instead of having the ents slaughter Saruman's orc-host and THEN take Isengard apart, send the ents straight to Isengard and let Eomer's cavalry take the credit for routing the orc-host. Forgivable.

  > So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having
  > Feanor take Frodo to
  > Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like
  > the book? That
  > one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no
  > need for that
  > scene.

  DC: I must agree that was the worst change
  RD: Maybe that also was just a time-saver. It got both Frodo and Faramir to Osgiliath without having to follow their fortunes seperately. Now Frodo is all set up to be led by Gollum into Shelob's lair whilst the battle of the Pelennor fields is fought on the other side of the river. Perhaps unnecessary, but forgivable.

  > One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from
  > a distance, but
  > they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What
  > was the purpose of
  > that stupid scene?

  DC : you coud see them i ditend fell like they was Invisibil

  RD: Yes but you KNEW they were there! Put yourself in the position of the Easterling scouts. At the end of a long march, in sight of their destination, they are told to go and investigate a rockslide. Now if you were one of those Easterling scouts, would you WANT to find anything? No, you'd want to get to your billet before all the best places were taken.

  Also, In the book, the Riders did not see Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli wrapped in their elven cloaks altho they rode right past them, until Aragorn hailed them; and Eomer spoke his surprise that the visitors just rose up out of the grass.

  > ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose.
  > Unless they are
  > to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they
  > couldn't, could
  > they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during
  > the last 1/3rd
  > of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found
  > myself worried
  > about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much
  > more they would
  > screw with it.
  >
  > All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as
  > the first
  > simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever
  > created".
  >
  > So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need
  > ladders at Helm's
  > Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with
  > stuff for no
  > reason?
  >
  >
  >
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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: David Clemmensen
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:57 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] The Two Towers: SPOILER

#8

Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival
of the ents like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around
in time" thingy like in the book and they had to leave
the "decision of the ents" to the last minute, no time to get
to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond to show up
with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of
Pelenor fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

The battle of Helm's Deep doesn't end with the arrival of the huorns
in the book (the Ents all stay at Isengard), but with the arrival of
Gandalf and Erkenbrand's reinforcements. This happens after the
huorns has moved during the night, and blocked the escape route of
Saruman's armies except 2 paths into the forest. T

To me they more than make up for this by showing the ents attacking
Isengard, something which merited only one page or so of flashback
in the book.

So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor
take Frodo to Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden
camp like the book? That one bugs me the most of all the
changes. I really see no need for that scene.

Most probably to give Faramir a bit more screentime, and to show off
Osgiliath, which was nice enough :slight_smile:

One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a
distance, but they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility".
What was the purpose of that stupid scene?

Actually, read the description of when Aragorn and the other two
meet the Riders of Rohan, they sat on the faded grass with their
cloaks around them, and the riders passed right besides them even
tho they were looking to the sides scouting/watching and didn't see
the three wanderers untill Aragorn rose up and spoke.

So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need
ladders at Helm's Deep? See the consistancy porblems created
by screwing with stuff for no reason?

Because in Moria they faced "normal" orcs, and at Helm's deep they
faced Saruman's bred uruk-hais.

RD: Spot on, Oystein!

Richard.

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Was it a good Movie or not, I'm still watching Fellowship, might be close to
my 20th time, LOL

Movies are never by the book, ask Stephen King, :slight_smile:

PM

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "kurgan" <kurgan@olp.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER

> So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders at

Helm's

> Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with stuff for

no

> reason?
>
>

Aside from the fact that has been mentioned that at Helms Deep it was
Uruk Hai, Different orc tribes had physical differences.

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#10

I totally agree with this, point for point.
  I experienced exactly the same emotions.
  Movie is great, but it is not exactly Tolkien. When Jakson will be
  able to create a worlds of his own without Hollywood stamps all over,
  so there is a real depth in them instead of simplistic "good guy -
  bad guy" - then I will respect him as I respect Tolkien.

  BTW, what about Gimli "jokes"? I found them more suiting for "Rush
  Hour" then this epic.

  Tim Dvoskin
  RD: Yes I have to agree here. The anti-dwarf jokes had nothing to do with Tolkien and were stereotyping at its worst. If you ridicule the guy, how can you accept him as a hero who slew over 100 orcs at Helm's Deep?

  If you knew somebody who had killed 100 enemies in hand-to-hand combat, and was known to be touchy even with his friends, you would not make jokes at his expense - it would be Mr Gimli, Sir, what can I do for you?

  Richard.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Tim Dvoskin <timdvoskin@infonet.by>
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:59 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER

#11

Well I seeing it tomorrow with the Girlfriend and wont care if it doesn't
match exactly with the book so long as it is fun. You could perhaps argue
that as time has passed (Book written ages ago) the story has become more
and more fantasy as it was told over time. Now true that doesn't really work
here but I am only trying to help <grin>.

Oh and if you are in Game 143 and an Aligned nation.. You didn't kill any of
my characters this turn.. Whats wrong ? Although I am seriously impressed
with the fight you are putting up.. Was taking you for granted. Made me wake
up and take stock a little now <grin>

Thomas
South Kingdom

Was it a good Movie or not, I'm still watching Fellowship, might be close

to

···

my 20th time, LOL

Movies are never by the book, ask Stephen King, :slight_smile:

PM

#12

the Aligned are not finished yet. We shall continue
this great war til the Neutral Alliance is in
remission.
  Allanon of the Crimson Shard
game 143

--- Grey Squirrel <greysquirrel@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

···

Well I seeing it tomorrow with the Girlfriend and
wont care if it doesn't
match exactly with the book so long as it is fun.
You could perhaps argue
that as time has passed (Book written ages ago) the
story has become more
and more fantasy as it was told over time. Now true
that doesn't really work
here but I am only trying to help <grin>.

Oh and if you are in Game 143 and an Aligned
nation.. You didn't kill any of
my characters this turn.. Whats wrong ? Although I
am seriously impressed
with the fight you are putting up.. Was taking you
for granted. Made me wake
up and take stock a little now <grin>

Thomas
South Kingdom

> Was it a good Movie or not, I'm still watching
Fellowship, might be close
to
> my 20th time, LOL
>
> Movies are never by the book, ask Stephen King, :slight_smile:
>
> PM

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#13

  From: corsairs game 101
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER

  Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

  In the first movie, I understood why there were so many changes.

More Arwin

  for more Heroic Woman scenes. Cool. I get it. Moving dialog

from one

  place to another or changing the character that delivers the

lines to make

  the movie flow better. Great. Killing the troll to give climax

to the

  battle scene. Great. (I never really liked the wall walking orcs

or the

  scene where the fellowship gets sourrounded or the falling

staircase scenes,

  but they weren't that big a deal.)

  That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers. SPOILER

ALERT!!!

  What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene or

the "Elrond

  talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

  Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival of

the ents

  like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time"

thingy like in

  the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to the

last

  minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond

to show up

  with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of

Pelenor

  fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.

  So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor

take Frodo to

  Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like the

book? That

  one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no need

for that

  scene.

  One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a

distance, but

  they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What was the

purpose of

  that stupid scene?

  ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose.

Unless they are

  to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they

couldn't, could

  they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during the

last 1/3rd

  of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found

myself worried

  about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much more

they would

  screw with it.

  All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as the

first

  simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever created".

  So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders

at Helm's

  Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with

stuff for no

  reason?
  RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up

walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?

  As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden

variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
one!).

  OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least

in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
Moria. No walking up walls for them!

  What I don't understand is why, in the film, the elves sent a

contingent of troops to Helm's Deep when they did not, in the end,
make any difference to the result of the battle? Actually I do know
the answer to that one - Arwen is hiding amongst them and she won't
be happy to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn!

  But how the hell did the elves get to Helm's Deep before

Saruman's army? The implication is that Elrond sent troops all the
way from Imladris! But even if the elves marched only from Lorien,
they would have been way behind the bad guys. Having an elvish force
turn up alongside Eomer's army would have made more sense
logistically and still brought Arwen face to face with Eowyn.

  Never mind, the battle scenes were so brilliant I can forgive

lapses like that.

  Richard.

So it's not exactly by the book. I don't care, it was a very well
done movie. There were some great lines, my favorite "Looks like
meat's back on the menu boys." Unlike some I thought the Ents well
done, I really liked the split personalities of Smeagol/Gollum
debating and thought the CGI Gollum very expressive. All in all I
think it dovetails well with the Fellowship and was enjoyable to
watch, I may not see it 20 times but I will see it again I am sure.

Brad J

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···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@p...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "kingoftherill <kingoftherill@y...>"
<kingoftherill@y...> wrote:

>
> From: corsairs game 101
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] OT: The Two Towers: SPOILER
>
>
> Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?
>
> In the first movie, I understood why there were so many changes.
More Arwin
> for more Heroic Woman scenes. Cool. I get it. Moving dialog
from one
> place to another or changing the character that delivers the
lines to make
> the movie flow better. Great. Killing the troll to give climax
to the
> battle scene. Great. (I never really liked the wall walking orcs
or the
> scene where the fellowship gets sourrounded or the falling
staircase scenes,
> but they weren't that big a deal.)
>
> That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers. SPOILER
ALERT!!!
>
> What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene or
the "Elrond
> talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?
>
> Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival of
the ents
> like the book? Okay, you can't do the "jump around in time"
thingy like in
> the book and they had to leave the "decision of the ents" to the
last
> minute, no time to get to the ents to Helm's Deep. Need Eomond
to show up
> with an army to have some Riders to take into the battle of
Pelenor
> fields.... I suppose that one was sort of okay.
>
> So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor
take Frodo to
> Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp like the
book? That
> one bugs me the most of all the changes. I really see no need
for that
> scene.
>
> One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a
distance, but
> they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What was the
purpose of
> that stupid scene?
>
> ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose.
Unless they are
> to set up even bigger changes inthe 3rd film... No, they
couldn't, could
> they?!?!? And that is what I found myself wondering during the
last 1/3rd
> of the movie? Instead of thinking how great it was, I found
myself worried
> about why they screwed with the story so much, and how much more
they would
> screw with it.
>
> All in all, I'd give the move a solid A+, but not as good as the
first
> simply due to lack of "Sticking to the best story ever created".
>
> So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders
at Helm's
> Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with
stuff for no
> reason?
> RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up
walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?
>
> As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden
variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
one!).
>
> OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least
in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
Moria. No walking up walls for them!
>
> What I don't understand is why, in the film, the elves sent a
contingent of troops to Helm's Deep when they did not, in the end,
make any difference to the result of the battle? Actually I do know
the answer to that one - Arwen is hiding amongst them and she won't
be happy to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn!

I thought it was one of a series of nice grace notes. We see that the
elves have a chance to escape to a truly safe haven and live
forever...and yet some of them choose to go to a place where they will
almost certainly die to save the lives of strangers. Most viewers
won't realize that it is at least 3 turns force-marched movement for
foot troops from Lorien to Helms Deep, which is a mere 2 hexes from
2119 :slight_smile:

And given the sheer closeness of the battle - with the defenders
pressed up literally with their backs to the wall - it certainly
seemed to me that the reinforcements made a difference.

A movie that makes you feel even for characters like Gollum and
Wormtongue - and manages well at the Ents, seemingly the most
unfilmable part of the book - is moviemaking at the highest level.

The scenes in Rohan, where they are facing such complete genocide that
they were putting swords into the hands of children, also cast this as
a final and desperate battle far more eloquently than any number of
fancy speeches.

On the whole, I'd call this one very well done - and I now have enough
faith in Jackson that when he departs from the literal text I puzzle
through it and can see why he did - for timing or dramatic impact.

Marc

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@p...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----

#15

  Okay, I give.... Why SO MANY changes?

  In the first movie, I understood why there were so many changes.

I had little problem with the first film. Thought PJ did a masterful
job with it. Condensing characters and scenes / moving dialog from
one character to another were fine. There was too much material in
the 1st part for a 3 hr movie so some changes had to occur. But PJ
and friends butchered TT for no good reason.

  That said, they made WAY TOO MANY changes to Two Towers. SPOILER

ALERT!!!

Agree.

  What was with the whole "Aragorn falls in the river" scene or

the "Elrond

  talking Arwin into sailing to Valinor" scene?

The whole audience thought Aragorn was dead and gone for good. Yup,
PJ's brillant addition! Tremendous dramatic moment when he arrives
unhurt - I think the 7 year old behind me was actually fooled.

Elrond and Arwen did argue about her marriage to Aragorn. This is
why Elrond required that only the United High King of Arnor and
Gondor could wed her. Since this is now politically incorrect
(Heaven forbit needing the Fathers consent to wed the daughter), they
just show the conflict between them. I had little problem with this
as it is true to the spirit of the book.

  Why not have the battle of Helm's Deep be ended by the arrival of

the ents like the book?

I can accept no Huorns in the movie since all the Fangorn scenes were
very rushed. Probably would have confused the audience. So I don't
have a huge problem with this. The biggest problem with Helm's Deep
scene was instead of 300 guys, JRRT says there are over a thousand
foot plus the cavalry they had. In the book, there are far more than
the dozen or so horsemen that are depicted in the movie. Little was
gained by making it 300 vs 10,000 instead of 1000+ vs 5K or 6K as
described in the book. Another blunder by PJ - after all if 300 can
defeat 10,000 orcs then the larger battle in ROTK will be
meaningless. Sauron would need Millions of orcs to overcome Minas
Tirith.

  So, I'll end with this one. What was gained by having Feanor
take Frodo to Osgiliath? Why not just let him go at the hidden camp
like the book? That one bugs me the most of all the changes. I
really see no need for that scene.

Not only was there no need for this scene, it made almost no sense.
Why did Faramir let Frodo go? No one I went to the movie with
understood it at all.

One major theme in the book is that Sauron does not know who has the
ring. He suspects Aragorn, especially after Aragorn reveals himself
in the Palantir but before that he actually suspects Saruman might
have it. Showing a Nazgul the ring is being carried by a hobbit at
Osgilith blows all that out of the water and should make Sauron start
to suspect what his enemies are up to. If Frodo is captured in ROTK
(as described in the book), Sauron would have to be an idiot not to
realize what is up. Hmm, Hobbit with Ring at Osgilith. Hmm, same
hobbit captured at Minas Morgul. Hmm. Guess he threw ring in river
near Osgilith. Hmm....

The scene also wasted 15 minutes of screen time that could have been
better used elsewhere.

  One last one.... Sure, the Elven Cloaks could hide you from a

distance, but

  they weren't Harry Potter "Cloaks of Invisibility". What was the

purpose of

  that stupid scene?

Since in the film Frodo says he can't put on the Ring because Sauron
will see him, they have to have some method of the hobbits escaping
from orcs in ROTK or they have to cut Frodo's capture out completely.
I suspect the cloaks will be used alot in ROTK.

  ARG. To many changes, and most seemingly without purpose.

Agree. Butchery of JRRT by PJ.

  So, if orcs can walk up walls in Moria, why did they need ladders

at Helm's

  Deep? See the consistancy porblems created by screwing with

stuff for no reason?

Agree. According to PJ, the orcs in Moria were a different breed that
could climb (extended DVD director comments). However, he did a piss
poor job explaining that in the film at all. Better they not create
new breeds of orcs that climb at all than setup all kinds of
confusion.

  What I don't understand is why, in the film, the elves sent a

contingent of troops to Helm's Deep when they did not, in the end,
make any difference to the result of the battle? Actually I do know
the answer to that one - Arwen is hiding amongst them and she won't
be happy to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn!

Originally PJ filmed Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep with those elves.
He cut it out when he reviewed it and saw that it didn't work well.
Evidently Liv Tyler can't swing a sword well. I suppose he was stuck
with the magical arrival of the Elves then. I agree more needless
changes that don't work at all.

Although I rated FOTR an A, PJ's TT is a C- at best. I predict it
won't be nominated for many, if any, awards.

Paul

#16

You know . . . there's nothing like having an ally drop on you because of
"no time" or whatever . . . and then seeing he or she pop up in new games
(either on the pbmforum or here in the mailing list). I've seen 2 former
allies of mine do that in the last couple of months. Makes me feel all warm
and fuzzy. I guess new games take "less" of their "time" than the mid- to
late games where they are crucial to a team victory.

Russ

#17

I wouldn't do that to you Russ, :slight_smile:

PM

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:52 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Nothing Like It

You know . . . there's nothing like having an ally drop on you because of
"no time" or whatever . . . and then seeing he or she pop up in new games
(either on the pbmforum or here in the mailing list). I've seen 2 former
allies of mine do that in the last couple of months. Makes me feel all

warm

and fuzzy. I guess new games take "less" of their "time" than the mid- to
late games where they are crucial to a team victory.

Russ

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