palantir not wanting xmls

mepbmlist
#1

I have 2 nations in each of my 2 games whose xml's won't go into Palantir. I've tried a complicated fix that was put onto the pbmforum, but it won't work for me.

10 xmls and 2 won't import, makes this program unuseable. What can I do?

First thing is that I need more details. Please send to me off-list so that we can discuss what the situation is there - much simpler.

I have a nagging suspicion that part of the problem could be the route the xml's travel to get to me... By the time MEGames sends it to my ally's AOL address and he sends it to his work email and then forwards it to my email...could there have been possible changes/damage to the file en route? Mine work fine, and I have "non-standard" characters on my pdfs.

** Yes quite likely.

What can we do about this apparent inconsistency?

*** Not sure until I have more information.

Clint

···

Brad Brunet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#2

Please report back to the list when you have solved it then, because I for one, as someone who's not seen a Palantir file working yet, am following all these issues with interest.

If you deal with technical problems like this off list, you may find yourself having to repeat yourself a lot if those problems recur for others.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 20:43 17/09/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

First thing is that I need more details. Please send to me off-list so
that we can discuss what the situation is there - much simpler.

#3

>First thing is that I need more details. Please send to me off-list so
>that we can discuss what the situation is there - much simpler.

Please report back to the list when you have solved it then, because I for
one, as someone who's not seen a Palantir file working yet,

Interesting. Have you set it up yet? :slight_smile: (Just jokin). We've run thousands of turns through it so far. The major problem seems to be the ISPs that basically save attachments in the main body of the email and then the transformation of that into a file that can be saved. The other is an old operating system unable to deal with some of the programs. I'm working on getting something together for that at present.

If you deal with technical problems like this off list, you may find
yourself having to repeat yourself a lot if those problems recur for others.

My intention is that we'll get a FAQ when we come across anything new and solutions.. We've had a few modifications to the program that creates the XML file (always the way when a program goes live) but otherwise it seems to be working as expected.

Clint

#4

Hi Lawrence,

Please report back to the list when you have solved it then, because I for
one, as someone who's not seen a Palantir file working yet, am following
all these issues with interest.

I think you mentioned that someone else on your team was supplying the
Gamexxx.dat file.
If you haven't already got Palantir working for Game xxx:
1. Download Palantir & user guide and follow instructions to startup
Palantir for the first time.
2. In Palantir, Create new game xxx - 1650/2950 as appropriate - your
position
3. In Windows Explorer, Copy your latest turn xml into the directory where
you have Palantir
4. In Palantir, Import your own latest turn xml and Redraw map.
5. In Windows Explorer, Copy the latest Gamexxx.dat file from your team
mapper (which will include your own latest turn details) into the directory
where you have Palantir (replacing the Gamexxx.dat file that you have there
already).
6. In Palantir, Redraw map

Next turn just steps 3-6

Hope that helps

Jenny

#5

Yes, the blank window looks pretty, but I'm not going to be importing 12 xmls, and constructing it all myself. So am waiting for a team mate, who is a Palantir playtester to do it and send me the whole file. Said player says he has a backlog of 100 e-mails at present. (Makes you wonder about people's priorities!) The suspicious devils want me to go on mapping our games in Alex Maetzing's prog as a backup and comparison, and I've earned my wings as a Meow Playtester... I was hoping this was one chore I could avoid. Should have known better.

Here come the "violins" gags.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 22:06 17/09/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

>one, as someone who's not seen a Palantir file working yet,

Interesting. Have you set it up yet? :slight_smile: (Just jokin).

#6

Yes, the blank window looks pretty, but I'm not going to be importing 12
xmls, and constructing it all myself. So am waiting for a team mate, who
is a Palantir playtester to do it and send me the whole file. Said player
says he has a backlog of 100 e-mails at present. (Makes you wonder about
people's priorities!) The suspicious devils want me to go on mapping our
games in Alex Maetzing's prog as a backup and comparison, and I've earned
my wings as a Meow Playtester... I was hoping this was one chore I could
avoid. Should have known better.

Thanks - note you'll need to import your own turn - you might want to try that. OR get the player concerned to send on the database and the .ini file to you if you don't want to import anything. Your work with MEOW was invaluable btw.

Clint

#7

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

What can we do about this apparent inconsistency?

*** Not sure until I have more information.

It would seem that the best way to solve the XML corruption problem is to send out turns as ZIP files instead of individual attachments. That would prevent the XML from getting grunged in transit or through forwarding.

It might take some time to set up for ME (Ltd!), but I suspect you'll save tech support time in the long run.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#8

OK, I tried it with my own turn... Wow! Very pretty. Well done to all
involved.

Many, many things I can see that I like. Will reserve judgement on how it
affects play (worry about how it will handle "grey" data) Can see one
thing I immediately do not like: Not being able to see the nation names,
(as someone else commented here). c.f. the Alex Maetzing prog:

267f8d7.jpg

But it seems to me that if you have the toggle names thing working so
beautifully, it would be relatively simple to have a toggle nation names
button, without any clutter. (If you do, please consider sticking to the
established 3 letter standardised acronyms which many of us are long
accustomed to using)

01 Woodman Woo
02 Northmen Nor
03 Eothraim Eot
04 Arthedain Art
05 Cardolan Car
06 Northern Gondor NGo
07 Southern Gondor SGo
08 Dwarves Dwa
09 Sinda Elves Sin
10 Noldo Elves Nol
11 Witch King WiK
12 Dragon Lord DrL
13 Dog Lord DoL
14 Cloud Lord ClL
15 Blind Sorcerer BlS
16 Ice King IcK
17 Quiet Avenger QAv
18 Fire King FiK
19 Long Rider LoR
20 Dark Lieutenant DkL
21 Corsairs Cor
22 Haradwaith Har
23 Dunlending Dun
24 Rhudaur Rhu
25 Easterling Eas
White Wizard WWi
Rhun Easterling RhE
Khand Easterling KhE
Dunadan Rangers DRa
Silvan Elves Sil
Riders of Rohan RoR

Well, that's all from my first 2 mins looking at it. Will go now to see if
it can plot a 12 hex movement circle for planning character
moves (probably the number one thing I use my map for)

One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!) used
to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for any
army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
you've managed that...

PS I didn't get the message about neutrals that the setup pdf told me to
expect, and can't see how to put that data in. There must be some way to
record which nations are dead as well. Can't see it yet...

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 01:07 18/09/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Thanks - note you'll need to import your own turn - you might want to try
that.

#9

It's a thought that I've had as well - we'll check into if it's a major problem. Legends UUencodes it after zipping the file - but that takes some more computer literacy at the player end to deal with manually. (It does automatically but there are often problems).

Clint

···

At 01:17 18/09/03, you wrote:

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

>>What can we do about this apparent inconsistency?
>
> *** Not sure until I have more information.

It would seem that the best way to solve the XML corruption problem is
to send out turns as ZIP files instead of individual attachments. That
would prevent the XML from getting grunged in transit or through forwarding.

It might take some time to set up for ME (Ltd!), but I suspect you'll
save tech support time in the long run.

                        jason

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

****************************************************************
                    Middle Earth Games
Mailto: me@middleearthgames.com
Website: www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
US: EpicMail, 12330 Perry Highway, 2nd Floor, Wexford, PA15090

Phone Times: 10am-6.30pm UK Time (BST);5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main is engaged)
(Dial 011 44 2920 913359 if in the US)
UK Fax: 029 2062 5532 24 hours
US Fax: 1-503-296-2325 (preferred)
US Phone: 724 933 3132 EST Weekdays
US alternate Fax: 801 650 8073 Fax 24hrs
****************************************************************

#10

But it seems to me that if you have the toggle names thing working so
beautifully, it would be relatively simple to have a toggle nation names
button, without any clutter. (If you do, please consider sticking to the
established 3 letter standardised acronyms which many of us are long
accustomed to using)

** We'll probably use numbers for this - takes up less space.

Well, that's all from my first 2 mins looking at it. Will go now to see if

it can plot a 12 hex movement circle for planning character
moves (probably the number one thing I use my map for)

*** Not yet - in the pipeline.

One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!) used
to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for any
army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
you've managed that...

*** Also in da pipeline.

PS I didn't get the message about neutrals that the setup pdf told me to
expect, and can't see how to put that data in.

*** Maybe you clicked past it? It should come up but if not then with the next turn it should sort it out.

There must be some way to
record which nations are dead as well. Can't see it yet...

** Nope - 1st time that has been mentioned. Does anyone want this? (Note if this is done then something else will be left un-done at least for the short to medium turn.). There's a note option that you can put as "dead". A sort of catch all for future thoughts at present.

The problem with having too many bells and whistles is that 1) it's confusing [for example the 25 colours is confusing for some players] and hard to learn the program, 2) it takes progamming. So for now we'll work on what is "essential" for a mapping program and then bring in extra bits as we get time to work on them.

Clint

#11

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

It's a thought that I've had as well - we'll check into if it's a major problem. Legends UUencodes it after zipping the file - but that takes some more computer literacy at the player end to deal with manually. (It does automatically but there are often problems).

No real need to UUEncode it - just attach the zip, and it'll be Mime encoded in the email. I've sent zips like that for years.

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#12

>But it seems to me that if you have the toggle names thing working so
>beautifully, it would be relatively simple to have a toggle nation names
>button, without any clutter. (If you do, please consider sticking to the
>established 3 letter standardised acronyms which many of us are long
>accustomed to using)

** We'll probably use numbers for this - takes up less space.

If you can have a toggle which brings up "Lag Diddledum" and print it in the hex (which it does very clearly on my screen at least), you can easily have it say "QAv". I'm suggesting that you have a 3 way toggle - click once for the place name, once again for the nation id once again to clear.

>PS I didn't get the message about neutrals that the setup pdf told me to
>expect, and can't see how to put that data in.

*** Maybe you clicked past it?

No

>There must be some way to
>record which nations are dead as well. Can't see it yet...

** Nope - 1st time that has been mentioned. Does anyone want this?

It's pretty vital for anyone using Palantir in an established game, or for anyone using it in a modified game, where some starting nations have been removed.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 03:02 18/09/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

#13

One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!) used
to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for any
army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
you've managed that...

*** I STILL use that program!

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:49 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Palantir look

#14

Keeps you feeling safe eh? In the long cold nights when the sabre toothed tigers prowl, and the fire burns low in the mouth of your cave. :wink:

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 13:28 18/09/2003, R.K.Floyd wrote:

One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!) used
to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for any
army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
you've managed that...

*** I STILL use that program!

Russ

#15

Opportunity to get into the 21C Russ? :slight_smile:

Clint

···

One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!) used
to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for any
army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
you've managed that...

*** I STILL use that program!

Russ

#16

Opportunity to get into the 21C Russ? :slight_smile:

Clint

Hey, I can't help it if all your newfangled "modern" technology can't keep
up with the old reliable stuff! :slight_smile:

Just kidding, of course . . . it is wonderful to not have to manually edit
every single change on the map. But I won't send full Kudos until the map
lists population center owners and allows army calculations. I've got a BIG
Kudo baking in the oven now waiting for that day . . . (that sounds kind of
gross . . .)

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Palantir look

Opportunity to get into the 21C Russ? :slight_smile:

Clint

>One of the very old mapping progs (you had to go into DOS to run it!)

used

>to be able to plan army moves - gave you a potential movement range for

any

>army taking into account if it was cavalry, or had food. I wonder if
>you've managed that...
>
>
>*** I STILL use that program!
>
>Russ

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#17

One fix is to go to the line ID'd in the warning and simply omit the
characters. I've seen problems with odd characters (umlauts, etc.) in
character/nation names. Just editing them out seems to work. The
name of the eothraim gave me troubles in a couple of files, for example.

In other cases I had to mess with the encoding of the xml files...you
get choices when trying to read them in a program like word, and just
fish around until you get one where the file looks OK.

It is a bit picky tho - may be something worth looking at.

Marc

>I have 2 nations in each of my 2 games whose xml's won't go into
>Palantir. I've tried a complicated fix that was put onto the

pbmforum,

>but it won't work for me.
>
>10 xmls and 2 won't import, makes this program unuseable. What can

I do?

First thing is that I need more details. Please send to me off-list so
that we can discuss what the situation is there - much simpler.

>I have a nagging suspicion that part of the problem could be the

route the

>xml's travel to get to me... By the time MEGames sends it to my

ally's

>AOL address and he sends it to his work email and then forwards it

to my

>email...could there have been possible changes/damage to the file en
>route? Mine work fine, and I have "non-standard" characters on my

pdfs.

** Yes quite likely.

>What can we do about this apparent inconsistency?

*** Not sure until I have more information.

Clint

>Brad Brunet
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Middle Earth PBM Games <me@M...> wrote:

****************************************************************
                    Middle Earth Games
Mailto: me@m...
Website: www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
US: EpicMail, 12330 Perry Highway, 2nd Floor, Wexford, PA15090

Phone Times: 10am-6.30pm UK Time (BST);5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main is engaged)
(Dial 011 44 2920 913359 if in the US)
UK Fax: 029 2062 5532 24 hours
US Fax: 1-503-296-2325 (preferred)
US Phone: 724 933 3132 EST Weekdays
US alternate Fax: 801 650 8073 Fax 24hrs
****************************************************************

#18

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "marc_pinsonneault"
<pinsonneault.1@o...> wrote:

One fix is to go to the line ID'd in the warning and simply omit the
characters. I've seen problems with odd characters (umlauts, etc.) in
character/nation names. Just editing them out seems to work. The
name of the eothraim gave me troubles in a couple of files, for example.

In other cases I had to mess with the encoding of the xml files...you
get choices when trying to read them in a program like word, and just
fish around until you get one where the file looks OK.

It is a bit picky tho - may be something worth looking at.

Marc

By the way - has anyone but me successfully applied my AOL-specific fix?

For those following the whole chain of the problem - the
special/extended characters such as the accented E in Eothraim are the
source of the difficulties. Basically, there are at least three major
ways of representing these characters, and you have problems when a
tool is expecting one but hits another.

The baseline encoding looks like plaintext for the most part, but
special characters are represented by a two byte sequence, part of
which marks the character as a special character and part of which
specifies the exact extended character. This is how it comes out of
ME Games - UTF-8.

If you view a UTF-8 document with a tool which is expecting latin-1,
the first character will usually look like an accented capital A. The
second character will vary depending on what the original extended
character was.

The most common encoding used on the web just uses the whole range of
8 bits in a byte, therefore allowing 256 characters rather than the
ASCII standard of 127. This is what most web clients will turn the
XML into - iso-8859-1 or latin-1.

This can create problems when you copy and paste it. If you paste it
into a tool which is aware that XML is supposed to be UTF-8, it may
well convert the incorrect accented A and other character into the
UTF-8 representation of the accented A and other character. Then your
file has garbage no matter how you read it.

The encoding AOL converts it to uses two bytes per character.
Basically, it's the same as iso-8859-1 except that every letter is
preceeded by character 00, which is what Wordpad displays as a box and
what Notepad converts to a space. This is UTF-16, except that AOL
omits the byte order marker which UTF-16 is supposed to use - that's
what my Wordpad fix is intended to readd.

If you view a UTF-16 document in a tool which is expecting latin-1,
all the letters will be right but they'll all have an undisplayable
character before them. It won't work at all in a tool which is
expecting UTF-8. Palantir can recognize this encoding if you add the
byte order marker, but if the contents have been altered somewhere
else there may be extra garbage inserted.

The intended encoding for everything is UTF-8. There are a number of
things which can go wrong along the way, though, as we're discovering.

Again, if the XML is not for game 223 (War of the Ring) or 136 (1650
Gunboat) you can forward it to me and I can try to diagnose exactly
what happened to it, and what you can do to repair it. Unfortunately,
there aren't always a lot of options, at least if you don't have the
right tools available. But maybe there's some easily replicable chain
of actions you can take to make Palantir happy.

-Peter