Picked Up Nations

mepbmlist
#1

I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known to be
inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.

Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations pc's. Now
guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?

and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a time just
when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.

Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive manner.

the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was inactive. Why is
it different now?

#2

Late pickups can also adversely affect allies. The only thing more
depressing than having a player running a strong nation vanish is to
drop 20K trying to recruit Din Ohtar or Elrond, only to spend the cash
to find out that their nation seeks to hold artifact #xxx, a sword...

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., RFmehl@a... wrote:

I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known to

be

inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.

Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations pc's.

Now

guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?

and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a time

just

when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.

Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive

manner.

the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was

inactive. Why is

···

it different now?

#3

Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned players
like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here - but
representing all (or the majority of the players) choices. Getting that can
be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked up is that
players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player drop out.
(2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when they have
not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players to pick up
nations.

So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.

Clint

I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known to be
inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.

Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations pc's. Now
guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?

and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a time just
when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.

Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive manner.

the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was inactive. Why

is

···

it different now?

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#4

Allow dropped but not eliminated nations to be picked up through turn
12. After that, give the team notice (they can double up if someone
wants to), give two weeks on the standby list, and then the nation is
formally out of the game. This gives ample opportunity to recruit new
players or have the team divide up the position assets without the
"risen from the grave" or "unrecruitable Elrond/Din Ohtar" problems.

Dropped neutrals in 1650/2950 who have not declared go away after turn
12, period. A late alliance decision by someone who wasn't originally
in the game is unfair to the people who've been at a game for 6 months
already. It is also prone to abuse - or even the suspicion of abuse -
which can be bad for everyone. (I'd favor disallowing change
allegiance orders after turn 12 in 1650/2950 in any case - if you
share in a victory you shouldn't be able to swoop in at the last
moment. But that is another topic.)

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:

Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned

players

like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here -

but

representing all (or the majority of the players) choices. Getting

that can

be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked up

is that

players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player drop

out.

(2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when

they have

not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players to

pick up

nations.

So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.

Clint

> I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known

to be

> inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.
>
> Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations

pc's. Now

> guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?
>
> and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a

time just

> when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.
>
> Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive

manner.

>
> the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was

inactive. Why

is
> it different now?
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

>
>

#5

A late alliance decision by someone who wasn't originally
in the game is unfair to the people who've been at a game for 6
months already.

Sing it for me!

And, in all fairness, unrealistic. To have those people, that nation,
sit around doing nothing, even as actions are taken against them, and
then suddenly a great leader presents himself to rally the people??
(and, mind you, their 6000 troops...) Puh-Leeze....

It is also prone to abuse - or even the suspicion of abuse

I didn't want to even sniff at hinting as such...

Of course, as for the "Turn 12" limit, well, is that in "Game" turns,
or the Turn number listed on the pdf of the picked up nation...wasn't
THAT the issue in the FA game too...?

bb

···

--- pinsonneault.1@osu.edu wrote:

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#6

I, personally, have no real problems with nations being picked up IF
Harlequin have done as they said they would and fixed it so that the 585
order now gives correct information such as the Nation is Inactive (Dropped)
Nation is elimated (Dead). That was the problem with the FA game when a
nation described as Collapsed and Dead etc. suddenly became active in the
middle of my Nations holdings (Not exactly useful). Then it changed to the
opposition side straight away despite everyone else being past the limit for
changing sides.

If however Harlequin have fixed the 585 order so that it only mentions a
nation being dead when it is actually dead then I have no problems with
nations being picked up.

#7

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:

Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned

players

like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here -

but

representing all (or the majority of the players) choices. Getting

that can

be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked up

is that

players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player

drop out.

(2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when

they have

not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players to

pick up

nations.

So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.

Clint

I vote for letting players to continue to pick-up nations. I think
that the more players the better the game.

Scott Moyes

> I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known

to be

> inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.
>
> Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations

pc's. Now

> guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?
>
> and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a

time just

> when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.
>
> Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive

manner.

>
> the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was

inactive. Why

is
> it different now?
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

>
>

#8

I thought we had sorted this out? We now change the status to:

1) Inactive if available for picking up - ie a player has just dropped. We
then contact the team players concerned and put it on the list.

2) Expired if out of play and no longer playable. This can be if the team
agrees not to allow it to be available anymore, or if the nation is just
dead from natural causes (ie >100% tax rate, no capital, no characters).

A prime example is that we rarely have 2950 or 1650 nations available for
take up. The only real issue seems to be 1000 and as mentioned I will keep
a closer eye on them at present.

Here's a suggestion (I think it is in the house rules but even we forget
them from to time). 4 turns after being dropped the nation is moved to
Expired and can no longer be picked up.

How does that sound? (Everyone can complain about what has happened - let's
just get a solution that is suitable for most players).

Clint

I, personally, have no real problems with nations being picked up IF
Harlequin have done as they said they would and fixed it so that the 585
order now gives correct information such as the Nation is Inactive

(Dropped)

Nation is elimated (Dead). That was the problem with the FA game when a
nation described as Collapsed and Dead etc. suddenly became active in the
middle of my Nations holdings (Not exactly useful). Then it changed to the
opposition side straight away despite everyone else being past the limit

for

···

changing sides.

If however Harlequin have fixed the 585 order so that it only mentions a
nation being dead when it is actually dead then I have no problems with
nations being picked up.

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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#9

Allow dropped but not eliminated nations to be picked up through turn
12.

We don't allow eliminated nations to be picked up. We do inform team-mates
as soon as we know that the nation is dropped - part of the reason we
encourage players to get in touch when they are dropping, if for no other
reason than out of good manners.

Dropped neutrals in 1650/2950 who have not declared go away after turn
12, period.

*** What do other players think of this?

Clint

#10

This sounds great. You've got my vote.

Mike Mulka

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 7:44 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Picked Up Nations

I thought we had sorted this out? We now change the status to:

1) Inactive if available for picking up - ie a player has just dropped. We
then contact the team players concerned and put it on the list.

2) Expired if out of play and no longer playable. This can be if the team
agrees not to allow it to be available anymore, or if the nation is just
dead from natural causes (ie >100% tax rate, no capital, no characters).

A prime example is that we rarely have 2950 or 1650 nations available for
take up. The only real issue seems to be 1000 and as mentioned I will keep
a closer eye on them at present.

Here's a suggestion (I think it is in the house rules but even we forget
them from to time). 4 turns after being dropped the nation is moved to
Expired and can no longer be picked up.

How does that sound? (Everyone can complain about what has happened - let's
just get a solution that is suitable for most players).

Clint

#11

Glad we got around to this. I was intentionally vague when I
started this thread....

Turn 13, we have our 3rd Harad player, who desires to be a "true"
neutral. This of course means 'Get off my pops!'. Um, this is just
not an acceptable simulation of Middle Earth...just dumb, really....

As for allied nations in the set editions (1650, 2950), they should
be allowed to be picked up (rallied) at any time until they're
unplayable. Undeclared neutrals....no. Limit this one...

Regards,

Brad B

···

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

>
> Dropped neutrals in 1650/2950 who have not declared go away after
turn
> 12, period.

*** What do other players think of this?

Clint

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#12

My 2 cents

First penny
If a nation is not bankrupt it should be allowed to be picked up at any
time.

It only takes a few turns to finish off a position that has dropped. If a
side chooses not to eliminate a dropped position then they run the risk of
being attacked by that nation later. We all know this. In the last game I
played several dark positions dropped for multiple turns and were picked up
at very inconvenient times, also a neutral position was dropped and picked
up by a friend of the dark. If we had ignored that neutral or any of the
dark positions because they were inactive we could have lost the game.

Just because it is convenient or easy to ignore a dropped position does not
mean that the position should be made "no longer playable". This is just one
more quirk of the game. Just like losing that decisive battle that you
thought you would win, or issuing the wrong sell/ transport order. The
unknown is what makes waiting for your turn exciting! No nation who is
bankrupt should become active, but if the nation drops and the economy is
still viable and some one wants to play it let them.

For those of you who like to equate real world motives to a fantasy game,
just chalk it up to a nation who changes it position on any hot button issue
due to social, political, and or economic pressure.

Second penny
If a neutral rejoins the game after being inactive for a while and wants
it's popcenters back :-), I would not return them until that neurtal joined
my side. It is the price for taking a used position. ( Anyone want to buy a
car?)

Bill

#13

I did not know this had been achieved. Are you talking about the message generated by the 585 order (seen by the enemy) or just what you put on the account (front) sheets (seen by the team)?

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 01:43 AM 26-09-01, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

I thought we had sorted this out? We now change the status to:

1) Inactive if available for picking up - ie a player has just dropped. We
then contact the team players concerned and put it on the list.

2) Expired if out of play and no longer playable. This can be if the team
agrees not to allow it to be available anymore, or if the nation is just
dead from natural causes (ie >100% tax rate, no capital, no characters).

#14

> > Dropped neutrals in 1650/2950 who have not declared go away after
> turn
> > 12, period.
>
> *** What do other players think of this?
>
> Clint

Turn 13, we have our 3rd Harad player, who desires to be a "true"
neutral. This of course means 'Get off my pops!'. Um, this is just
not an acceptable simulation of Middle Earth...just dumb, really....

Okay a valid point but not answering the question. One thing i have
considered is just setting up a game just for players to play with - no
attacks just play with mechanisms. I think the Harad should probably play
in FA - much more scope for sitting outside the main game and playing with
the development aspect. It's the major reason for players playing Neutrals
I think.

As for allied nations in the set editions (1650, 2950), they should
be allowed to be picked up (rallied) at any time until they're
unplayable. Undeclared neutrals....no. Limit this one...

Turn 12?

···

Regards,

#15

I did not know this had been achieved. Are you talking about the message
generated by the 585 order (seen by the enemy) or just what you put on the
account (front) sheets (seen by the team)?

I am not 100% sure of the 585 report you get - but in the game database the
positions are Expired and Inactive. (Ie a different status). Not the
accounts. I would be pretty certain that they are different. When we get a
spare moment I'll try to check and get back to you - things are a bit busy
here this week.

Clint

#16

Okay only a handful of comments on when to have nations available for others
so I'll leave it... :frowning:

Clint

#17

Smile don't frown. I didn't comment because I'm happy as it is, which is no doubt the case for others. I don't see any problem with an inactive nation being picked up even after a long period of inactivity. It was only getting the report that a nation was "collapsed" and THEN having it come back which was an issue.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 05:53 PM 27-09-01, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Okay only a handful of comments on when to have nations available for others
so I'll leave it... :frowning:

#18

I vote for 3 inactive and said nation is out for good.
And that "true" neutrals shall never be allowed to be picked up after
turn 10 (i.e. the free turn should be turn 10 or before)

Kasper Ambeck-Madsen

PS I also play in that game where a neutral was picked up for the
second time in turn 12 after several turns of inactivity.

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:

Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned

players

like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here -

but

representing all (or the majority of the players) choices. Getting

that can

be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked up

is that

players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player

drop out.

(2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when

they have

not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players to

pick up

nations.

So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.

Clint

> I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known

to be

> inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.
>
> Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations

pc's. Now

> guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?
>
> and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a

time just

> when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.
>
> Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive

manner.

>
> the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was

inactive. Why

is
> it different now?
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

>
>

#19

I don't know what Clint's policy is by Deft/GSI required two turns of
inactivity before they would consider the position abandoned. Why should it
matter if a neutral has not declared by turn 10. If the position is viable
and the game has the potential to go on they should allow it to be picked up.

am1beck@hotmail.com wrote:

···

I vote for 3 inactive and said nation is out for good.
And that "true" neutrals shall never be allowed to be picked up after
turn 10 (i.e. the free turn should be turn 10 or before)

Kasper Ambeck-Madsen

PS I also play in that game where a neutral was picked up for the
second time in turn 12 after several turns of inactivity.

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:
> Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned
players
> like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here -
but
> representing all (or the majority of the players) choices. Getting
that can
> be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked up
is that
> players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player
drop out.
> (2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when
they have
> not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players to
pick up
> nations.
>
> So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.
>
> Clint
>
> > I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was known
to be
> > inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.
> >
> > Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations
pc's. Now
> > guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?
> >
> > and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at a
time just
> > when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.
> >
> > Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a decisive
manner.
> >
> > the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was
inactive. Why
> is
> > it different now?
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

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#20

It has a huge impact on a game when a neutral declares late.

We have also seen, over the years, some fierce message board debates
about whether late "neutrals" are really "neutrals" or friends of
players on one side or the other who joined with the express intent of
throwing a game to one side or the other.

Neither team has "lost" anything if a neutral drops late, so why gum
up the works?

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., kurgan <kurgan@o...> wrote:

I don't know what Clint's policy is by Deft/GSI required two turns

of

inactivity before they would consider the position abandoned. Why

should it

matter if a neutral has not declared by turn 10. If the position is

viable

and the game has the potential to go on they should allow it to be

picked up.

am1beck@h... wrote:

> I vote for 3 inactive and said nation is out for good.
> And that "true" neutrals shall never be allowed to be picked up

after

···

> turn 10 (i.e. the free turn should be turn 10 or before)
>
> Kasper Ambeck-Madsen
>
> PS I also play in that game where a neutral was picked up for the
> second time in turn 12 after several turns of inactivity.
>
> --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:
> > Lots of reasons - are you talking about a FA game. As mentioned
> players
> > like to pick up nations. We are happy to go with the flow here

-

> but
> > representing all (or the majority of the players) choices.

Getting

> that can
> > be hard though. One of the reason we allow nations to be picked

up

> is that
> > players invariably drop games - there are always the odd player
> drop out.
> > (2950 we have a lot of drop outs). So that games don't die when
> they have
> > not got a fair chance for the game to develop we allow players

to

> pick up
> > nations.
> >
> > So what do players want? We'll see if we can accomodate this.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> > > I've had his happen just this week where a nation that was

known

> to be
> > > inactive for at least SEVEN turns has now been picked up.
> > >
> > > Since we knew it was dropped, we took over some of the nations
> pc's. Now
> > > guess how the new player is going to feel towards our side?
> > >
> > > and ironically and depressingly, this turn of events comes at

a

> time just
> > > when the enemy has gotten the upper hand to a small degree.
> > >
> > > Which way he goes will definitely tip the balance in a

decisive

> manner.
> > >
> > > the old rule was three turns of dormancy and the nation was
> inactive. Why
> > is
> > > it different now?
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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