Player Ratings

mepbmlist
#1

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE comment.

Player and Team Rating Tables

There has been a lot of discussion on the mepbmlist concerning ratings for
players. We've taken a look at this and also the emails sent to us on the
subject. Here then are some ideas.

Please discuss and give feedback on what we can do to change it (what
changes you would make and what you would keep the same), what you think of
it (good or bad), what is unclear and needs improvement and anything other
feedback you think useful. We have in mind 4 ratings: Valar, Maia, Istari
and Ainur. Note you don't need to do anything to get these ratings, we'll
do all the work.!

Valar - this is based on similar ratings found in other games such as chess.
The quality of both teams is taken into account, as is the split of the
neutrals. If this rating became popular, it would have a very profound
balancing effect on the neutrals, it would be rare to get games where one
side is too strong and the game ends too quickly.

Maia - designed to be like experience points. This will show how much
experience you have at playing Middle-earth. It gives more points for
winning than for losing, it also gives more points if you play with other
more experienced players.

Istari - individual success, based on ability to place well at the end of
the game. This follows GSI's Victory Points system, rewarding those who are
not only on the winning team, but who have achieved their five goals.

Ainur - a rating for Grudge teams. This rewards Grudge teams who win without
losing too many nations along the way.

Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be counted.
(This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another player
takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .

This also means that if you are in more than one game your rating could well
be different by the end of the game. In these cases it is always your newest
rating that will be used. So if you start one game with 1,500 points and
then lose 50 from another game when the game ends you will have to use 1,450
as your 'original rating'.

Any games which start with less than 20 positions will count for less and so
only earn 1/2 points. Each rating will also alter as time goes on to show a
true status of active players. The updated ratings will be sent out to
players and added to the website each month. As time passes, players who
have not played recently will find their scores dropping, whilst active
players will remain at the top of the tables.
After each month your scores will be modified as follows:

   New Rating = [0.98 x ( Original Rating - 1500 )] + 1500

E.g. A rating of 1850 will be modified down to 1843 after one month and down
to 1836 after two months

   New Rating = [0.98 x ( 1850 - 1500)] +1500
     = [0.98 x 350] + 1500
= 1843

(1500 is the average, or the start rating. We will give people approximate
ratings when we start doing this. We'll discuss these approximate ratings
in a different article.)

The following pages explain each rating as we envisage them. There's quite a
bit of maths involved, so you might want to take it rating by rating and
think about each before looking at the next. There are also plain English
equations and examples, which should help.

Valar Rating

There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the game
you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.

New Valar Rating = Original Rating + Change

Where; Change = 45 + (TotLose - TotWin )/150

Definitions: TotLose = Total of the Original ratings of the Losing team,
TotWin = Total of the Original ratings of the Winning team

Neutrals that do not change allegiance are counted as losing players for
their rating adjustment, but not for the total of the losing team's rating.

Example
The Free Peoples win on turn 30 with 11 players on their team. The losing
team (DS) had 13 players on their team before the inevitable drops. One
Neutral dropped and was not taken up.

Free People (winners) have a rating of:
Nation Original Rating
Wood 1450
NortM 1550
Eothra 1200 (got knocked out on turn 5 but still counts)
Arth 1300
Card 1500
NortG 1524
SoutG 1544
Dwarf 1700
Sinda 1800
Noldo 1000
Harad 1200
Total (TotWin) 15768

Dark Servants have a Rating of:
Nation Original Rating
WitchK 1290 (died on turn 8)
DragL 1100
DogL 1400 (dropped out two turns before the end of game)
Cloud 1050
BlinS 1784
IceK 1800
QuieA 1500 (new player so given default Provisional rating of 1500)
FireK 1600 (ran the Fire King and the Long Rider)
LongR 1600
DarkL 1856
Cors 1900
Dunl 1243
East 1542
Total (TotLose) 19665

Rhudaur was Neutral throughout the game so counts as losing. We'll come to
that one later.

Change = 45 + (15768 - 19665 )/150
                                 = 45 + 25.98 = 71 (round to nearest)

So the Dwarf's new score is: 1700 + 71 = 1771, and the Blind Sorcerer's new
score is:1784 - 71 =1713

Note - The Rhudaur player, who remained neutral all game loses 71 points.
His previous rating does not impact on the calculation. The Fire King and
the Long Rider's score is affected only once despite the fact that the
player is running two positions.
Maia Rating

Definitions
RatNew = New player rating
RatOrig = Original player rating
TmAv = Your team's average rating at game end (worked out in the same
manner as the Valar ratings)
Score = Score for the game where S = 4 Win, = 3 Draw, = 2 Loss
EndTurn = Generic turn number the game Ended

RatNew = RatOrig + (TmAv/RatOrig) x Score x ?EndTurn

e.g. On turn 30 Dark Servants win. Their Average Rating is 1400. If I am a
winner on that team and I went into the game with a Maia rating of 1250, my
new Maia Rating would be:

= 1250 + (1400/1250 x 4 x ?30 )
= 1250 + (1.12 x 4 x 5.477)
= 1250 + 25 (rounding nearest)
   = 1275

If I were on the losing side (FP) with the same start rating (and the
average FP team rating was 1600) then my new Maia Rating would be:

= 1250 + (1600/1250 x 2 x ?30)
= 1250 + (1.28 x 2 x 5.477)
= 1250 + 14 (rounding nearest)
   = 1264

Istari Rating

Victory Points refers to the final score of each player, including those
gained through completion of individual victory conditions. No points are
scored by players on the losing team.

Position on the winning team, 1 = 1st, 2 = 2nd etc

New Istari Rating = Original Rating + Victory Points / (Position +2)

E.g., Original Istari rating of 1250. I came 5th on the winning team, with
1050 Victory Points. My new Istari rating would be:
= 1250 + 1050/ (5+2)
= 1250 + 150
= 1400

BOFA also has a slightly different VP scoring system, 1000 for a Total
Victory, 500 for a Major Victory, 250 for a Minor Victory.

Ainur Rating

Grudge game - a Grudge Team is defined as any group of players which has at
least 5 members of the same team as played together before. It also has
same designated Team Co-ordinator. Members can come and go as long as 5
players of the original team remain.

If you make a change to a team roster between games you lose ( C x C )
points, where C = number of players changed. This means you lose 1 point if
you change 1 team member on the roster, 4 points if you change 2, and 25
points if you change 5 etc.

Two examples of Grudge teams: Sam Roads' 'Team GM', or Ben Shushan's 'USA1'

Grudge games can occur across the spectrum of gaming formats, with a minimum
of 10 nations filled a-side. Many players will never play a grudge game
because they prefer different formats, so they need not worry about Ainur
ratings.

There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the game
you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.

The Ainur rating is applicable to the team, not the individual players.

GruOrigLose = Original Grudge rating of Losing team
GruOrigWin = Original Grudge rating of Winning team
ActWinNtn = Number of Active nations on winning side at game end
NumNtn = Number of nations per side at game start

New Grudge rating = Original Grudge rating + Change

Change = 60 x ( GruOrigLose / GruOrigWin) x ( ActWinNtn / NumNtn)

E.g. Winning Grudge team has an original rating of 1500, losing team of
1450. It started as a 12v12 game and the winning team lost 4 nations by the
end of the game so ended with 8 active nations.

Change = 60 x ( 1450/1500 ) x ( 8/12 )
= 60 x ( 0.97 ) x ( 0.67 )
= 39 ( rounded to nearest )

So the winning team would walk away with a new rating of 1539 points and the
losers would skulk off with a new rating of 1411 points.

···

****************************************************************
     Middle Earth Games
Mailto: me@MiddleEarthGames.com
Website: www.MiddleEarthGames.com

UK: Office A, 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP, UK
USA: PO Box 280, Medford, OR 97501-0019, USA

Phone times: 10am-6.30pm UK time (BST - British Standard Time); 5am-1.30pm
(EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359/ (029 2062-5665 can be used if the other is engaged) [Dial
Code: 011 44 2920. for US players]
UK Fax: 029 2062 5532
US: Phone & Fax: 541-772-7872 (10-5pm weekdays) (fax24hrs)
****************************************************************

#2

My first question is exactly what are these ratings to be used for?
Balancing a game? Making an all-star team? Are they to be published? will
you be the only ones to see them? Somewhere I'd like to see how often a
player starts and drops. I've played for years and encountered a situation
beyond my control and dropped the rhun thru 2 consectutive special service
turns, and though Im not proud of that I'd be interested to know how often a
prospective teammate has started and dropped on turn 8 . This info more then
any other interests me as a team can help stop mistakes and wasted orders
but cant help if the position just drops.

Gosh long for one question eh?

Steve Mason (not the one who cheated) :o)

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE

comment.

Player and Team Rating Tables

There has been a lot of discussion on the mepbmlist concerning ratings for
players. We've taken a look at this and also the emails sent to us on the
subject. Here then are some ideas.

Please discuss and give feedback on what we can do to change it (what
changes you would make and what you would keep the same), what you think

of

it (good or bad), what is unclear and needs improvement and anything other
feedback you think useful. We have in mind 4 ratings: Valar, Maia,

Istari

and Ainur. Note you don't need to do anything to get these ratings, we'll
do all the work.!

Valar - this is based on similar ratings found in other games such as

chess.

The quality of both teams is taken into account, as is the split of the
neutrals. If this rating became popular, it would have a very profound
balancing effect on the neutrals, it would be rare to get games where one
side is too strong and the game ends too quickly.

Maia - designed to be like experience points. This will show how much
experience you have at playing Middle-earth. It gives more points for
winning than for losing, it also gives more points if you play with other
more experienced players.

Istari - individual success, based on ability to place well at the end of
the game. This follows GSI's Victory Points system, rewarding those who

are

not only on the winning team, but who have achieved their five goals.

Ainur - a rating for Grudge teams. This rewards Grudge teams who win

without

losing too many nations along the way.

Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be counted.
(This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another player
takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .

This also means that if you are in more than one game your rating could

well

be different by the end of the game. In these cases it is always your

newest

rating that will be used. So if you start one game with 1,500 points and
then lose 50 from another game when the game ends you will have to use

1,450

as your 'original rating'.

Any games which start with less than 20 positions will count for less and

so

only earn 1/2 points. Each rating will also alter as time goes on to show

a

true status of active players. The updated ratings will be sent out to
players and added to the website each month. As time passes, players who
have not played recently will find their scores dropping, whilst active
players will remain at the top of the tables.
After each month your scores will be modified as follows:

   New Rating = [0.98 x ( Original Rating - 1500 )] + 1500

E.g. A rating of 1850 will be modified down to 1843 after one month and

down

to 1836 after two months

   New Rating = [0.98 x ( 1850 - 1500)] +1500
     = [0.98 x 350] + 1500
= 1843

(1500 is the average, or the start rating. We will give people approximate
ratings when we start doing this. We'll discuss these approximate ratings
in a different article.)

The following pages explain each rating as we envisage them. There's quite

a

bit of maths involved, so you might want to take it rating by rating and
think about each before looking at the next. There are also plain English
equations and examples, which should help.

Valar Rating

There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the game
you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.

New Valar Rating = Original Rating + Change

Where; Change = 45 + (TotLose - TotWin )/150

Definitions: TotLose = Total of the Original ratings of the Losing team,
TotWin = Total of the Original ratings of the Winning team

Neutrals that do not change allegiance are counted as losing players for
their rating adjustment, but not for the total of the losing team's

rating.

Example
The Free Peoples win on turn 30 with 11 players on their team. The losing
team (DS) had 13 players on their team before the inevitable drops. One
Neutral dropped and was not taken up.

Free People (winners) have a rating of:
Nation Original Rating
Wood 1450
NortM 1550
Eothra 1200 (got knocked out on turn 5 but still counts)
Arth 1300
Card 1500
NortG 1524
SoutG 1544
Dwarf 1700
Sinda 1800
Noldo 1000
Harad 1200
Total (TotWin) 15768

Dark Servants have a Rating of:
Nation Original Rating
WitchK 1290 (died on turn 8)
DragL 1100
DogL 1400 (dropped out two turns before the end of game)
Cloud 1050
BlinS 1784
IceK 1800
QuieA 1500 (new player so given default Provisional rating of 1500)
FireK 1600 (ran the Fire King and the Long Rider)
LongR 1600
DarkL 1856
Cors 1900
Dunl 1243
East 1542
Total (TotLose) 19665

Rhudaur was Neutral throughout the game so counts as losing. We'll come

to

that one later.

Change = 45 + (15768 - 19665 )/150
                                 = 45 + 25.98 = 71 (round to nearest)

So the Dwarf's new score is: 1700 + 71 = 1771, and the Blind Sorcerer's

new

score is:1784 - 71 =1713

Note - The Rhudaur player, who remained neutral all game loses 71 points.
His previous rating does not impact on the calculation. The Fire King

and

the Long Rider's score is affected only once despite the fact that the
player is running two positions.
Maia Rating

Definitions
RatNew = New player rating
RatOrig = Original player rating
TmAv = Your team's average rating at game end (worked out in the same
manner as the Valar ratings)
Score = Score for the game where S = 4 Win, = 3 Draw, = 2 Loss
EndTurn = Generic turn number the game Ended

RatNew = RatOrig + (TmAv/RatOrig) x Score x ?EndTurn

e.g. On turn 30 Dark Servants win. Their Average Rating is 1400. If I am

a

winner on that team and I went into the game with a Maia rating of 1250,

my

new Maia Rating would be:

= 1250 + (1400/1250 x 4 x ?30 )
= 1250 + (1.12 x 4 x 5.477)
= 1250 + 25 (rounding nearest)
   = 1275

If I were on the losing side (FP) with the same start rating (and the
average FP team rating was 1600) then my new Maia Rating would be:

= 1250 + (1600/1250 x 2 x ?30)
= 1250 + (1.28 x 2 x 5.477)
= 1250 + 14 (rounding nearest)
   = 1264

Istari Rating

Victory Points refers to the final score of each player, including those
gained through completion of individual victory conditions. No points are
scored by players on the losing team.

Position on the winning team, 1 = 1st, 2 = 2nd etc

New Istari Rating = Original Rating + Victory Points / (Position +2)

E.g., Original Istari rating of 1250. I came 5th on the winning team,

with

1050 Victory Points. My new Istari rating would be:
= 1250 + 1050/ (5+2)
= 1250 + 150
= 1400

BOFA also has a slightly different VP scoring system, 1000 for a Total
Victory, 500 for a Major Victory, 250 for a Minor Victory.

Ainur Rating

Grudge game - a Grudge Team is defined as any group of players which has

at

least 5 members of the same team as played together before. It also has
same designated Team Co-ordinator. Members can come and go as long as 5
players of the original team remain.

If you make a change to a team roster between games you lose ( C x C )
points, where C = number of players changed. This means you lose 1 point

if

you change 1 team member on the roster, 4 points if you change 2, and 25
points if you change 5 etc.

Two examples of Grudge teams: Sam Roads' 'Team GM', or Ben Shushan's

'USA1'

Grudge games can occur across the spectrum of gaming formats, with a

minimum

of 10 nations filled a-side. Many players will never play a grudge game
because they prefer different formats, so they need not worry about Ainur
ratings.

There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the game
you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.

The Ainur rating is applicable to the team, not the individual players.

GruOrigLose = Original Grudge rating of Losing team
GruOrigWin = Original Grudge rating of Winning team
ActWinNtn = Number of Active nations on winning side at game end
NumNtn = Number of nations per side at game start

New Grudge rating = Original Grudge rating + Change

Change = 60 x ( GruOrigLose / GruOrigWin) x ( ActWinNtn / NumNtn)

E.g. Winning Grudge team has an original rating of 1500, losing team of
1450. It started as a 12v12 game and the winning team lost 4 nations by

the

end of the game so ended with 8 active nations.

Change = 60 x ( 1450/1500 ) x ( 8/12 )
= 60 x ( 0.97 ) x ( 0.67 )
= 39 ( rounded to nearest )

So the winning team would walk away with a new rating of 1539 points and

the

losers would skulk off with a new rating of 1411 points.

****************************************************************
     Middle Earth Games
Mailto: me@MiddleEarthGames.com
Website: www.MiddleEarthGames.com

UK: Office A, 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP, UK
USA: PO Box 280, Medford, OR 97501-0019, USA

Phone times: 10am-6.30pm UK time (BST - British Standard Time); 5am-1.30pm
(EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359/ (029 2062-5665 can be used if the other is engaged)

[Dial

Code: 011 44 2920. for US players]
UK Fax: 029 2062 5532
US: Phone & Fax: 541-772-7872 (10-5pm weekdays) (fax24hrs)
****************************************************************

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#3

I must agree on this numper of posisions played and numpers of dropouts
(notcounting team drops ect)
i allso think that the numpers of SS trrns compaierd to the total number of
turns run is relevant

david

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mason" <smason@ccrtc.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

My first question is exactly what are these ratings to be used for?
Balancing a game? Making an all-star team? Are they to be published? will
you be the only ones to see them? Somewhere I'd like to see how often a
player starts and drops. I've played for years and encountered a situation
beyond my control and dropped the rhun thru 2 consectutive special service
turns, and though Im not proud of that I'd be interested to know how often

a

prospective teammate has started and dropped on turn 8 . This info more

then

any other interests me as a team can help stop mistakes and wasted orders
but cant help if the position just drops.

Gosh long for one question eh?

Steve Mason (not the one who cheated) :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

> Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE
comment.
>
> Player and Team Rating Tables
>
> There has been a lot of discussion on the mepbmlist concerning ratings

for

> players. We've taken a look at this and also the emails sent to us on

the

> subject. Here then are some ideas.
>
> Please discuss and give feedback on what we can do to change it (what
> changes you would make and what you would keep the same), what you think
of
> it (good or bad), what is unclear and needs improvement and anything

other

> feedback you think useful. We have in mind 4 ratings: Valar, Maia,
Istari
> and Ainur. Note you don't need to do anything to get these ratings,

we'll

> do all the work.!
>
> Valar - this is based on similar ratings found in other games such as
chess.
> The quality of both teams is taken into account, as is the split of the
> neutrals. If this rating became popular, it would have a very profound
> balancing effect on the neutrals, it would be rare to get games where

one

> side is too strong and the game ends too quickly.
>
> Maia - designed to be like experience points. This will show how much
> experience you have at playing Middle-earth. It gives more points for
> winning than for losing, it also gives more points if you play with

other

> more experienced players.
>
> Istari - individual success, based on ability to place well at the end

of

> the game. This follows GSI's Victory Points system, rewarding those who
are
> not only on the winning team, but who have achieved their five goals.
>
> Ainur - a rating for Grudge teams. This rewards Grudge teams who win
without
> losing too many nations along the way.
>
> Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
> purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be

counted.

> (This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another

player

> takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .
>
> This also means that if you are in more than one game your rating could
well
> be different by the end of the game. In these cases it is always your
newest
> rating that will be used. So if you start one game with 1,500 points and
> then lose 50 from another game when the game ends you will have to use
1,450
> as your 'original rating'.
>
> Any games which start with less than 20 positions will count for less

and

so
> only earn 1/2 points. Each rating will also alter as time goes on to

show

a
> true status of active players. The updated ratings will be sent out to
> players and added to the website each month. As time passes, players who
> have not played recently will find their scores dropping, whilst active
> players will remain at the top of the tables.
> After each month your scores will be modified as follows:
>
> New Rating = [0.98 x ( Original Rating - 1500 )] + 1500
>
> E.g. A rating of 1850 will be modified down to 1843 after one month and
down
> to 1836 after two months
>
> New Rating = [0.98 x ( 1850 - 1500)] +1500
> = [0.98 x 350] + 1500
> = 1843
>
> (1500 is the average, or the start rating. We will give people

approximate

> ratings when we start doing this. We'll discuss these approximate

ratings

> in a different article.)
>
> The following pages explain each rating as we envisage them. There's

quite

a
> bit of maths involved, so you might want to take it rating by rating and
> think about each before looking at the next. There are also plain

English

> equations and examples, which should help.
>
> Valar Rating
>
> There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the

game

> you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.
>
> New Valar Rating = Original Rating + Change
>
> Where; Change = 45 + (TotLose - TotWin )/150
>
> Definitions: TotLose = Total of the Original ratings of the Losing

team,

> TotWin = Total of the Original ratings of the Winning team
>
> Neutrals that do not change allegiance are counted as losing players for
> their rating adjustment, but not for the total of the losing team's
rating.
>
> Example
> The Free Peoples win on turn 30 with 11 players on their team. The

losing

> team (DS) had 13 players on their team before the inevitable drops. One
> Neutral dropped and was not taken up.
>
> Free People (winners) have a rating of:
> Nation Original Rating
> Wood 1450
> NortM 1550
> Eothra 1200 (got knocked out on turn 5 but still counts)
> Arth 1300
> Card 1500
> NortG 1524
> SoutG 1544
> Dwarf 1700
> Sinda 1800
> Noldo 1000
> Harad 1200
> Total (TotWin) 15768
>
> Dark Servants have a Rating of:
> Nation Original Rating
> WitchK 1290 (died on turn 8)
> DragL 1100
> DogL 1400 (dropped out two turns before the end of game)
> Cloud 1050
> BlinS 1784
> IceK 1800
> QuieA 1500 (new player so given default Provisional rating of 1500)
> FireK 1600 (ran the Fire King and the Long Rider)
> LongR 1600
> DarkL 1856
> Cors 1900
> Dunl 1243
> East 1542
> Total (TotLose) 19665
>
> Rhudaur was Neutral throughout the game so counts as losing. We'll come
to
> that one later.
>
> Change = 45 + (15768 - 19665 )/150
> = 45 + 25.98 = 71 (round to nearest)
>
> So the Dwarf's new score is: 1700 + 71 = 1771, and the Blind Sorcerer's
new
> score is:1784 - 71 =1713
>
> Note - The Rhudaur player, who remained neutral all game loses 71

points.

> His previous rating does not impact on the calculation. The Fire King
and
> the Long Rider's score is affected only once despite the fact that the
> player is running two positions.
> Maia Rating
>
> Definitions
> RatNew = New player rating
> RatOrig = Original player rating
> TmAv = Your team's average rating at game end (worked out in the same
> manner as the Valar ratings)
> Score = Score for the game where S = 4 Win, = 3 Draw, = 2 Loss
> EndTurn = Generic turn number the game Ended
>
> RatNew = RatOrig + (TmAv/RatOrig) x Score x ?EndTurn
>
> e.g. On turn 30 Dark Servants win. Their Average Rating is 1400. If I

am

a
> winner on that team and I went into the game with a Maia rating of 1250,
my
> new Maia Rating would be:
>
> = 1250 + (1400/1250 x 4 x ?30 )
> = 1250 + (1.12 x 4 x 5.477)
> = 1250 + 25 (rounding nearest)
> = 1275
>
> If I were on the losing side (FP) with the same start rating (and the
> average FP team rating was 1600) then my new Maia Rating would be:
>
> = 1250 + (1600/1250 x 2 x ?30)
> = 1250 + (1.28 x 2 x 5.477)
> = 1250 + 14 (rounding nearest)
> = 1264
>
> Istari Rating
>
> Victory Points refers to the final score of each player, including those
> gained through completion of individual victory conditions. No points

are

> scored by players on the losing team.
>
> Position on the winning team, 1 = 1st, 2 = 2nd etc
>
> New Istari Rating = Original Rating + Victory Points / (Position +2)
>
> E.g., Original Istari rating of 1250. I came 5th on the winning team,
with
> 1050 Victory Points. My new Istari rating would be:
> = 1250 + 1050/ (5+2)
> = 1250 + 150
> = 1400
>
> BOFA also has a slightly different VP scoring system, 1000 for a Total
> Victory, 500 for a Major Victory, 250 for a Minor Victory.
>
>
> Ainur Rating
>
> Grudge game - a Grudge Team is defined as any group of players which has
at
> least 5 members of the same team as played together before. It also has
> same designated Team Co-ordinator. Members can come and go as long as 5
> players of the original team remain.
>
> If you make a change to a team roster between games you lose ( C x C )
> points, where C = number of players changed. This means you lose 1

point

if
> you change 1 team member on the roster, 4 points if you change 2, and 25
> points if you change 5 etc.
>
> Two examples of Grudge teams: Sam Roads' 'Team GM', or Ben Shushan's
'USA1'
>
> Grudge games can occur across the spectrum of gaming formats, with a
minimum
> of 10 nations filled a-side. Many players will never play a grudge game
> because they prefer different formats, so they need not worry about

Ainur

> ratings.
>
> There is no change in your rating if there was a draw, if you won the

game

> you add the change, if you lost the game you subtract the change.
>
> The Ainur rating is applicable to the team, not the individual players.
>
> GruOrigLose = Original Grudge rating of Losing team
> GruOrigWin = Original Grudge rating of Winning team
> ActWinNtn = Number of Active nations on winning side at game end
> NumNtn = Number of nations per side at game start
>
> New Grudge rating = Original Grudge rating + Change
>
> Change = 60 x ( GruOrigLose / GruOrigWin) x ( ActWinNtn / NumNtn)
>
> E.g. Winning Grudge team has an original rating of 1500, losing team of
> 1450. It started as a 12v12 game and the winning team lost 4 nations by
the
> end of the game so ended with 8 active nations.
>
> Change = 60 x ( 1450/1500 ) x ( 8/12 )
> = 60 x ( 0.97 ) x ( 0.67 )
> = 39 ( rounded to nearest )
>
> So the winning team would walk away with a new rating of 1539 points and
the
> losers would skulk off with a new rating of 1411 points.
>
> ****************************************************************
> Middle Earth Games
> Mailto: me@MiddleEarthGames.com
> Website: www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
> UK: Office A, 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP, UK
> USA: PO Box 280, Medford, OR 97501-0019, USA
>
> Phone times: 10am-6.30pm UK time (BST - British Standard Time);

5am-1.30pm

> (EST)
> UK: 029 2091 3359/ (029 2062-5665 can be used if the other is engaged)
[Dial
> Code: 011 44 2920. for US players]
> UK Fax: 029 2062 5532
> US: Phone & Fax: 541-772-7872 (10-5pm weekdays) (fax24hrs)
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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>
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#4

David Clemmensen wrote:

i allso think that the numpers of SS trrns compaierd to the total number of
turns run is relevant

Just make sure not to count winning (or losing?) SS turns.

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#5

Middle Earth Games wrote:

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE comment.

Player and Team Rating Tables

First, let me say that I've been a huge fan of player ratings since they were first announced. I've dealt with chess ratings before, and liked how that gave both a sense of accomplishment and a sense of balance to the game. I think MEPBM rankings can really enhance play by making games meaningful and rewarding in a broader context.

Valar - this is based on similar ratings found in other games such as chess.
The quality of both teams is taken into account, as is the split of the
neutrals. If this rating became popular, it would have a very profound
balancing effect on the neutrals, it would be rare to get games where one
side is too strong and the game ends too quickly.

This is my favorite part of the system. It will certainly add another dimension to neutrals choosing sides.

Maia - designed to be like experience points. This will show how much
experience you have at playing Middle-earth. It gives more points for
winning than for losing, it also gives more points if you play with other
more experienced players.

Another good idea. It puts the first rating in context.

Istari - individual success, based on ability to place well at the end of
the game. This follows GSI's Victory Points system, rewarding those who are
not only on the winning team, but who have achieved their five goals.

Does this involve VCs, or just gold/armies/PCs/etc?

Ainur - a rating for Grudge teams. This rewards Grudge teams who win without
losing too many nations along the way.

Sounds fine.

Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be counted.
(This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another player
takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .

I think this should be counted, possibly by counting drops (as someone else suggested). Players should be punished for bailing on their team when a nation still has life. Players should also be rewarded for picking up difficult positions.

Any games which start with less than 20 positions will count for less and so
only earn 1/2 points. Each rating will also alter as time goes on to show a

Does that include games with 2 nations/player?

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#6

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE
comment.

After all the hubub regarding ratings over the last couple of
years, I think this proposal is excellent and am eager to scroll
through many web pages trying to find my name (presuming I make
the top 200 ... :frowning: )

Some comments:

1) Most questions I've seen are answered in the Bree article:
Please read it.

2) Let's not reopen the whole rating debate. Excellent ideas,
like, for example, players themselves participating in votes or
subjective ratings would be nice, but have died a worthy death.
Many reasons, expected Participation Rates not the least of which.

3) If you don't like ratings, ignore them. To presume that the
game will be drastically altered and hundreds of players will now
be otherwise motivated is a colossal insult to all of us. Every
email I read that Projects these attitudes onto the rest of us
I consider a personal slight. Those who consider the Individual
Victory over the Team Victory shall continue to do so. I know
many of them, and based on the system, they would score quite
low. Let's put a monthly updated web site on a Middle Earth
game into a little perspective in regards to human motivation
please.

4) If you don't like VP's and/or VC's, ignore the Istari rating,
the Maia and Valar are excellent calculations. I have particular
distastes for many things, eg, colas, low rider pick up trucks,
soap operas, etc, but I accept their support by others in our
pluralistic society (ies).

5) When do we start? Current games?

6) What EXACTLY does the company mean by "We will give people
approximate ratings when we start...". It's either EVERYONE
starts at 1500 or NOT. [To: MEGames From: Pandora]

7) Besides a presumed web page and/or monthly egoups mail, are
we to see our teammates ratings on our turn email? The enemy's?

8) The Maiar calculation below converts Turn 30 into the number
5.477. Exactly how does that happen? Is the "?" a mathematical
symbol of some sort, and if so could you explain it to me?

Many thanks!

Brad Brunet
109410

ps - R.D. Excellent Article!

···

--- Middle Earth Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

RatNew = New player rating
RatOrig = Original player rating
TmAv = Your team's average rating at game end (worked out in the
same
manner as the Valar ratings)
Score = Score for the game where S = 4 Win, = 3 Draw, = 2 Loss
EndTurn = Generic turn number the game Ended

RatNew = RatOrig + (TmAv/RatOrig) x Score x ?EndTurn

e.g. On turn 30 Dark Servants win. Their Average Rating is 1400. If
I am a
winner on that team and I went into the game with a Maia rating of
1250, my
new Maia Rating would be:

= 1250 + (1400/1250 x 4 x ?30 )
= 1250 + (1.12 x 4 x 5.477)
= 1250 + 25 (rounding nearest)
   = 1275

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

#7

8) The Maiar calculation below converts Turn 30 into the number
5.477. Exactly how does that happen? Is the "?" a mathematical
symbol of some sort, and if so could you explain it to me?

For clarity : Square root. Missed that in the error checking sorry.

Clint

#8

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE comment.
  RD: Well you asked for it: I HATE it!

  Valar: How do YOU assess the quality of a team? In the absence of reliable stats this is subjective.

  Maiar: How do YOU assess the experience of a player or a team? If you were going to do this, you need to know how many games each player has completed (to keep it simple, dropouts for whatever reason don't count). Again you don't have the stats - do you?

  Istari: Individual points go against the spirit of a team game.

  Ainur: if we are talking about a "Championship" surely all such games will be grudge games? Not everybody - including I expect most beginners - want to be ranked.

  It is VERY important for ME to allow for both fun games (no pressure, no scores to beat, no records kept, ideal for beginners or players who for whatever reason don't want to play grudge games), and Championship games.

  Championship games are by definition grudge matches: 12 v 12. If you allow neutrals in championship games there is FAR to much left to chance or whim to get any kind of accurate measure of any team's quality let alone any individual player.

  Ideally neutral players should join the allegiance with the best diplomats (which has NOTHING to do with their skill in using the rules!). I have personal experience of games where my team's excellent diplomacy has brought two neutrals to our side, but the other neutrals have declared for the opposite side "in the interests of game balance" even though they admitted our diplomacy and play was better. We beat 'em anyway but that's beside the point!

  Declaring "in the interests of game balance" may appear very fair-minded but in fact in PENALISES the team which up to that point has been winning and therefore may justifiably be considered the better team. This is fine in a standard (friendly?) game but it is NOT fine in a finely-balanced Championship game where the neutrals - who are in any case some of the most powerful nations in ME - can tip the scales. If Corsairs or Harad join a DS side which wins a game, you can guarantee it is one of those nations which place first, or at least in the top 3. This makes a nonsense of having neutrals in championship games and placing players accordingly.

  I looked at the two pages of stats you generated and my eyes glazed over. Sorry, I simply could not be bothered to study them.
  I don't even want to consider a system which looks so complex.

  I wish you would give equal publicity to Laurence Tilley's "ladder" system which deserves consideration.

  The most important thing is in determining points for a championship is that the scoring system is SIMPLE!

  Here are my suggestions:
  There are 2 types of game: friendly and championship.
  Friendly games are the normal ones, with neutrals.
  Only championship games score points.
  Championship games are by definition grudge games: 12 nations per side. The following formats are possible: ! player per nation, 6 players per allegiance each playing 2 nations, 4 players each playing 3 nations per side, 3 players each playing 4 nations per side. In any case the neutrals are divided according to the follwing formula:
  FP choose 1 neutral
  DS choose 2 neutrals
  FP choose 1 neutral
  Fifth neutral is discarded.

  Everybody starts with a clean sheet because this is a new system. Doesn't matter whether you've been playing 2 months or 20 years, you all start from scratch.

  The length of each game is indefinite. The most enjoyable games I've been involved in are the ones which have gone on for two years or more, giving the chance to develop a full cast of characters and some of them to their full potential.

  Games are decided when one team concedes, or is eliminated, or when one team's active nations outnumber those of the opposing team by 2-1, or when one team wins by means of the One Ring. A draw can be declared by mutual agreement, at least 50% of both teams agreeing.
  Scoring:
  Eliminated: 0
  Dropped (for whatever reason): 0
  Completing a game (win, lose or draw) 1 point.
  Commanding one or more live nations when a draw is declared: 1 point.
  Commanding one or more nations when your team wins: 1 point (but see below "win within..")
  Each nation on the winning team scores 1 extra point for each enemy nation eliminated MINUS any nations on its own side eliminated.
  Each surviving player may award 1 point to a member of his own team, and 1 point to a member of the opposing team. THIS WILL PROVIDE THE DIFFERENTIAL betwen the most successful players each team. If a player doesn't vote, nobody gets the points. You can't vote for yourself. Each player has only 1 vote for a player on his own team, and 1 vote for one of the enemy, regardless of how many nations he ends up playing.

  Bearing in mind that some games finish within 10 turns, and others go on for 10 years ;
  Win within 12 months or less: 1 extra point for each surviving member of the winning team.
  Win within 18 months = 2 points
  Win within 24 months = 3 points, etc., add on 1 point per 6 months.

  This means that teams who have to fight a long game end up with a proportionately bigger score than those which (perhaps luckily) won quickly and easily.

  The above isn't perfect, but hell, it's a damn sight simpler than the system you put forward!

  I LOVE the idea of using the names Valar, Ainur, etc but these should be reserved for the top few players, not different categories.

  Richard.

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Middle Earth Games
  To: mepbmlist
  Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:30 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

#9

Okay there seem to be some assumptions made here Richard, which I don't think are accurate. If you don't mind I'll try to answer some of them before they are taken out of context and then quoted back and fore in a Chinese Whispers way... :slight_smile:

   Valar: How do YOU assess the quality of a team? In the absence of reliable stats this is subjective.

** We have information over a period of 2 years about who won what and with what team. I have a suggestion about this that will also help, but I want to not get sidetracked off the main issue of what people think of the rating system overall before we go into some of the nitty gritty of the system. Crawl, walk, run.

  Maiar: How do YOU assess the experience of a player or a team? If you were going to do this, you need to know how many games each player has completed (to keep it simple, dropouts for whatever reason don't count). Again you don't have the stats - do you?

*** We do have most of the stats here as well - grudge game vs individual games. When we create a game I have a toggle on the database that I use for Grudge or Individual. As for games completed I was hoping to go back 2 years on this. We could possibly go back further but that would rely on players being fair and actual remembering. 2 years should give a good idea (especially with the way we have scores degrade over time).

  Istari: Individual points go against the spirit of a team game.

*** That's what the Istari rating is. VPs are part of the game that GSI has created, and you can ignore them or not. Your call. But to emulate that we have one rating that takes into account these ratings. If I were to look at the scoring I would be interested to see who the top Valar and Maia players are, and consider the Istari rating as something that I was less interested in. But that's my perogative and yours. As a player I am interested solely in the team win [not the VPs although they are fun as well] and I suspect you are as well, but for others, and it's their game as well, that's not the case.

  Ainur: if we are talking about a "Championship" surely all such games will be grudge games? Not everybody - including I expect most beginners - want to be ranked.

*** They wouldn't be - It's a TEAM rating that you get. If you aren't part of a recognised Grudge team then you don't get a score. Simple. So most players wouldn't be rated, by reason of not being in a Grudge team.

  It is VERY important for ME to allow for both fun games (no pressure, no scores to beat, no records kept, ideal for beginners or players who for whatever reason don't want to play grudge games), and Championship games.

** Us to. This allows that and allows players to challenge the good Grudge teams if they want. Part of what the World Championships was all about.

  Championship games are by definition grudge matches: 12 v 12. If you allow neutrals in championship games there is FAR to much left to chance or whim to get any kind of accurate measure of any team's quality let alone any individual player.

** Not strictly the case but pretty close. Grudge games of 10v10 exist. I would probably not allow a game that has un-aligned Neutrals in it to count to this rating but part of what this is about is the discussion aspect as I want player opinions.

  Ideally neutral players should join the allegiance with the best diplomats (which has NOTHING to do with their skill in using the rules!).

** From your perspective. From mine players change allegiance for many reasons.
1) To be on the winning team
2) To play AGAINST the presently winning team.
3) To play with certain players (they like their style, communication, team work, bribery, diplomacy) or Against the opposite.
4) Something to do.
Probably a lot more reasons but this from the top of my head.

I have personal experience of games where my team's excellent diplomacy has brought two neutrals to our side, but the other neutrals have declared for the opposite side "in the interests of game balance" even though they admitted our diplomacy and play was better. We beat 'em anyway but that's beside the point!

** And other games work the other way. I can give examples.

  Declaring "in the interests of game balance" may appear very fair-minded but in fact in PENALISES the team which up to that point has been winning and therefore may justifiably be considered the better team. This is fine in a standard (friendly?) game but it is NOT fine in a finely-balanced Championship game where the neutrals - who are in any case some of the most powerful nations in ME - can tip the scales. If Corsairs or Harad join a DS side which wins a game, you can guarantee it is one of those nations which place first, or at least in the top 3. This makes a nonsense of having neutrals in championship games and placing players accordingly.

*** Grudge games generally don't have such things. Also see above - nothing is cut in stone yet, this is a friendly discussion.

  I looked at the two pages of stats you generated and my eyes glazed over. Sorry, I simply could not be bothered to study them.
  I don't even want to consider a system which looks so complex.

*** We simplified it to the best of our ability. We gave some verbal descriptions of what they both achieve and what they stand for. I am happy to discuss them in more detail though. Examples of each were given so that you can have a go at working it out. My advice give it a moment to sink in, work through it again. The Valar ratings are the most difficult. Try the Istari and then the Maia and the Ainur ratings, then work upto the Valar both the most complex and, I think, most interesting rating. I can understand your frustration here - note YOU don't need to do the numbers, we do that for you. If you win you get points, you lose you lose points. Simple. (Maia - you win you get more points than if you lose). Stu's eyes glazed as well - you should have seen the original mathematical equations we had! :slight_smile: ( I and Ed come from a maths background so it's second nature to us to use it, but Stu is an English and Theatre Major so we tested it on him - most amusing to watch his expression. We went with something that was relatively simple to understand, with some work, but reflected all the factors that we thought relevant and interseting.)

  I wish you would give equal publicity to Laurence Tilley's "ladder" system which deserves consideration.

** It was discussed and little came of it. But it was part of the motivation for this. Other bits came from Chess ratings, and Magic the gathering ratings (which we used to play a lot). Great fun in that. I have had lots of discussions with players about ratings like this, and some from Laurence as well, but I think this is better (IMHO).

  The most important thing is in determining points for a championship is that the scoring system is SIMPLE!

** Um not sure - isn't it that it is accurate and reflects the skill of the teams/individuals?

  Here are my suggestions:
  There are 2 types of game: friendly and championship.
  Friendly games are the normal ones, with neutrals.

*** See above

  Only championship games score points.
  Championship games are by definition grudge games: 12 nations per side. The following formats are possible: ! player per nation, 6 players per allegiance each playing 2 nations, 4 players each playing 3 nations per side, 3 players each playing 4 nations per side. In any case the neutrals are divided according to the follwing formula:
  FP choose 1 neutral
  DS choose 2 neutrals
  FP choose 1 neutral
  Fifth neutral is discarded.

** This is a method we can use for defining Grudge games - it's fine by me, but I don't want to limit players too much in what they can and cannot play.

   Bearing in mind that some games finish within 10 turns, and others go on for 10 years ;

  Win within 12 months or less: 1 extra point for each surviving member of the winning team.
  Win within 18 months = 2 points

  Win within 24 months = 3 points, etc., add on 1 point per 6 months.

** Not sure about this. Why add points for longer play. This seems to reflect your personal preference.

  This means that teams who have to fight a long game end up with a proportionately bigger score than those which (perhaps luckily) won quickly and easily.

Or skillfully? :slight_smile:

  I LOVE the idea of using the names Valar, Ainur, etc but these should be reserved for the top few players, not different categories.

*** We have a different idea for that but we'll come to that later. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the feedback - very enlightening.

Clint

#10

Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE

comment.

Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be counted.
(This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another player
takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .

Half of the positions I have played were originally dropped by some one.
The best I have finished was 4th, before VP were added in. Most often I am
in the bottom 50% of the standings at the end game. Under all the proposed
rating systems I would be rather low in the standings ( perhaps a true
reflection of my play... but my ego doubts it). I doubt there will be many
players
willing to take over a position which will most certainly cause them to lose
rating
points.

Will

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:30 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

#11

William Minnig Jr wrote:

Half of the positions I have played were originally dropped by some one.
The best I have finished was 4th, before VP were added in. Most often I am
in the bottom 50% of the standings at the end game. Under all the proposed
rating systems I would be rather low in the standings ( perhaps a true
reflection of my play... but my ego doubts it). I doubt there will be many

How do you figure this? Most of the ratings are based on whether your team wins or not. Why do you want to be low in those?

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#12

Only with the Istari rating which similar to the 1st,2nd 3rd with DGE would be the same. With team wins for the other 3 then you score as highly as your VPs are NOT taken into account. This seems to be a common misconception in the discussions throughout this list. So if you are on a winning team you score more points.

Clint

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:30 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Player Ratings

> Here's the idea we have on player ratings - check it out and PLEASE
comment.
> Each of these ratings will be updated at the end of a game. For scoring
> purposes the last player that ran that particular nation will be counted.
> (This means that a player who runs a nation, then stops AND another player
> takes over, will not be counted for any of these ratings) .

Half of the positions I have played were originally dropped by some one.
The best I have finished was 4th, before VP were added in. Most often I am
in the bottom 50% of the standings at the end game. Under all the proposed
rating systems I would be rather low in the standings ( perhaps a true
reflection of my play... but my ego doubts it). I doubt there will be many
players
willing to take over a position which will most certainly cause them to lose
rating
points.

Will

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                    Middle Earth Games
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****************************************************************

#13

Somewhere I'd like to see how often a
player starts and drops. I've played for years and encountered a situation
beyond my control and dropped the rhun thru 2 consectutive special service
turns, and though Im not proud of that I'd be interested to know how often a
prospective teammate has started and dropped on turn 8 . This info more then
any other interests me as a team can help stop mistakes and wasted orders
but cant help if the position just drops.

Um we're not sure how to collate this information - at present it's beyond our ability to keep that information upto date.

Clint