Player Ratings

Hi,
I've never been a huge fan of the idea of Ratings, therre are other things I'd rather see happen, such as the alteration (orabolition) of the individual victory conditions. That said, I do like the idea of the team ratings - after all this is a team game so it's waht it should be all about.

Any ratings system has got to weight nations somehow - obviously someone who does well as the Woodmen deserves more points than a player who wins with the Noldo on turn 16. Comparing Woodmen against Noldo or Dark Lts players is rather unfair - nations need to be compared with performances of other players running the same nation.

Would players be able to opt in or out of this system? i don't think I'd been keen on being rated for any individual system - having spent a number of years trying (successfully) to win games, I wouldn't want to go back and do it again. :slight_smile: One danger of individual ratings (aside from making some nations even less attractive) is to discourage team play. Surely we should be doing the opposite?

Colin

Colin

Colin

I dislike enny rating ther is based on VP I woud prefer somting like 5 poind
foer finishing a game on the wining side 2 foer the losing side and -a lot
if you quit befoer game end

David

I dislike enny rating ther is based on VP I woud prefer somting like 5 poind
  foer finishing a game on the wining side 2 foer the losing side and -a lot
  if you quit befoer game end

  David
  RD: Yes, something along those lines is fine. It means that everybody on the team (who was not eliminated or dropped) gets the same points, and it doesn't matter whether you played Noldo or Woodies.

  If you want to pick out the best individual player, then as I suggested earlier, every surviving player should cast two votes: one for the best player on his own team, and one for whichever opposition nation gave him the most trouble.

  The second vote is more important, especially if players do not know the ID of their opponents or at least which nations they are playing, as in that case they is no chance of rigging the vote.

  Richard.

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: David Clemmensen
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Player Ratings

  If you want to pick out the best individual player, then as I suggested earlier, every surviving player should cast two votes: one for the best player on his own team, and one for whichever opposition nation gave him the most trouble.

  The second vote is more important, especially if players do not know the ID of their opponents or at least which nations they are playing, as in that case they is no chance of rigging the vote.

  Richard.

I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.

Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:

Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65 characters, but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those successful 930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the face of stiff Gondor invasion.

Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated the encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...

:slight_smile:

Sam

Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than detracts from it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting system, as a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so superior to an "Istari" system, where numerical data is extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do you think made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin to weigh up all the complex considerations above. Voting, where players will try to consider the effort and the circumstances, gives Woodmen, the chance to outshine Noldo. Voting gives a Dragon Lord who held up the enemy for 20 turns and ended on one MT and a camp, the chance to outshine a BlS, who built himself a nice private empire.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 15:19 15/09/2002, Sam wrote:

I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.

Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:

Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65 characters,
but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those successful
930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the face of
stiff Gondor invasion.

Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated the
encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...

  I dislike enny rating ther is based on VP I woud prefer somting like 5 poind
  foer finishing a game on the wining side 2 foer the losing side and -a lot
  if you quit befoer game end

  David
  RD: Yes, something along those lines is fine. It means that everybody on the team (who was not eliminated or dropped) gets the same points, and it doesn't matter whether you played Noldo or Woodies.

** Note the Maia rating, the Ainur rating and the Valar rating all do this. Slightly different method but still roughly similar. ALL players get points who win get the same points (Maia rating somewhat different but very close).

Clint

Laurence G. Tilley wrote:

Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated the
encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...

Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than detracts from it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting system, as a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so superior to an "Istari" system, where numerical data is extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do you think made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin to

I really don't see that. As much as I don't like the Istari system, I have a hard time beliving that most MEPBM teams are going to vote for the QA who sent 100k gold to his allies over the CL with 75 kills. You might very well feel that way, but I think you're outnumbered.

I think dropping the individual ratings is the best option, since rating someone's performance is almost impossible. That does benefit unhelpful players who happen to get lucky on a good team, but it means that players are rewarded equally, whether they use armies, agents, or money.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

You will never get the players to vote after the game
is over. Not enough to bother with. I'd vote, LGT and
RD would vote, a handfull of other's would vote, but
it's hard enough, it seems, sending in turn reports or
even politely replying to crucial emails DURING the
game.

Brad

···

--- "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

At 15:19 15/09/2002, Sam wrote:
>I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.
>
>Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:
>
>Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65
characters,
>but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those
successful
>930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the face
of
>stiff Gondor invasion.
>
>Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated
the
>encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...

Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than detracts
from
it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting
system, as
a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so superior to
an
"Istari" system, where numerical data is
extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do you
think
made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin
to
weigh up all the complex considerations above. Voting, where players
will
try to consider the effort and the circumstances, gives Woodmen, the
chance
to outshine Noldo. Voting gives a Dragon Lord who held up the enemy
for 20
turns and ended on one MT and a camp, the chance to outshine a BlS,
who
built himself a nice private empire.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

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Forgive me for asking, it was probably already said before,
but, "What is the purpose for a player ranking?"

Scott

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Player <pbmnoot@y...> wrote:

You will never get the players to vote after the game
is over. Not enough to bother with. I'd vote, LGT and
RD would vote, a handfull of other's would vote, but
it's hard enough, it seems, sending in turn reports or
even politely replying to crucial emails DURING the
game.

Brad

--- "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:
> >I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.
> >
> >Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:
> >
> >Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65
> characters,
> >but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those
> successful
> >930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the

face

> of
> >stiff Gondor invasion.
> >
> >Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or

collated

> the
> >encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous

emails...

>
> Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than

detracts

> from
> it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting
> system, as
> a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so

superior to

> an
> "Istari" system, where numerical data is
> extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do

you

> think
> made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to

begin

> to
> weigh up all the complex considerations above. Voting, where

players

> will
> try to consider the effort and the circumstances, gives Woodmen,

the

> chance
> to outshine Noldo. Voting gives a Dragon Lord who held up the

enemy

> for 20
> turns and ended on one MT and a camp, the chance to outshine a

BlS,

···

> At 15:19 15/09/2002, Sam wrote:
> who
> built himself a nice private empire.
>
>
> Laurence G. Tilley
>
> http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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_

Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Forgive me for asking, it was probably already said before,
but, "What is the purpose for a player ranking?"

*** You could ask "what is the purpose of playing games?". I am using my experience of MtG (Magic CCG) for this as it was quite a part of the game. When playing friendly games with others it was fun to win or lose. With the ratings it gave it that extra edge of fun - knowing you were going up against a highly rated player, competitions, had something to earn from each game you played. That was part of the appeal of the game for me. Bragging rights is fun as well.

I think a rating system would give a good indication of the best Grudge team out there, good players, good Istari players and the like. One suggestion brought up a while ago was how to judge teams playing against each other. At present I just use my experience to say "that's a fair game" - the rating would certainly help me to judge better. (I mostly am okay, but have made the odd error over the years).

So for me that would be it, but for others no doubt it's different.

Clint

> Only by asking players "who do you think
> made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin to

I really don't see that. As much as I don't like the Istari system,

I am not a major fan of it myself, but want to offer it if possible.

I
have a hard time beliving that most MEPBM teams are going to vote for
the QA who sent 100k gold to his allies over the CL with 75 kills. You
might very well feel that way, but I think you're outnumbered.

I concur.

Clint

*** You could ask "what is the purpose of playing games?". I am

using my

experience of MtG (Magic CCG) for this as it was quite a part of

the

game. When playing friendly games with others it was fun to win or
lose. With the ratings it gave it that extra edge of fun - knowing

you

were going up against a highly rated player, competitions, had

something to

earn from each game you played. That was part of the appeal of the

game

for me. Bragging rights is fun as well.

MtG is a single player game similar to Chess. Are you converting
this game into a single player game?

What is to prevent me and 4 others joining a game taking all the
neutral slots and swinging the game the way we want? In fact, under
the Rating System, it makes far more sense for all neutrals to always
band together and declare for one side. This is the way to guarantee
rating points since most players drop if faced by a 15-10 neutral
split.

Heck, in the name of Rating Points might as well get my brother-in-
law to sign up for the same game I am joining but on the other side.
Since he isn't interested in MEPBM, he can just forward me all the
PDF printouts of the opposing team (guess we can say goodbye to
sharing PDFs, Yahoo groups etc). Currently there isn't really any
incentive to do this, as it would just screw up your current game.
But heck, in the name of Rating Points, Bragging Rights, Fame and
maybe Prizes, why not?

I think your opening a big can of worms trying to add systems that
are appropriate for single player games into this one.

Paul

ulfang_the_easterling wrote:

> MtG is a single player game similar to Chess. Are you converting
> this game into a single player game?

Well, it's a 2+ player game, like chess, whereas MEPBM is a 2 team game. Same difference.

> What is to prevent me and 4 others joining a game taking all the
> neutral slots and swinging the game the way we want? In fact, under

Besides the fact that you'd be banned from ME forever?

> the Rating System, it makes far more sense for all neutrals to
> always band together and declare for one side. This is the way to
> guarantee rating points since most players drop if faced by a 15-10
> neutral split.

How would that be any fun? I'm going to pay good money just to force a team to drop?

> I think your opening a big can of worms trying to add systems that
> are appropriate for single player games into this one.

I just don't get this "point greed" scenario everyone's batting around. Ok, I can see that 1% of players might abuse the system. It seems to me that it will be more than offset by better balancing and more to play for in any given game.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

MtG is a single player game similar to Chess. Are you converting
this game into a single player game?

Similar but the team as a group is one entity as well. Actually I played competitive chess (and would have for MtG if the format was there) in teams. (Gwent county chess, board 2 for my school that sort of thing - very much a team effort there - many years ago now).

What is to prevent me and 4 others joining a game taking all the
neutral slots and swinging the game the way we want? In fact, under
the Rating System, it makes far more sense for all neutrals to always
band together and declare for one side. This is the way to guarantee
rating points since most players drop if faced by a 15-10 neutral
split.

*** This is against the rules. You are not allowed to join together as a group of Neutrals. Not sure why it helps the ratings - if you have 5 Neutrals on your side you lose points relative to 4-1 or less split. With 15 Neutrals on your side even if you win you don't get many points at all (actually you lose a few on average). (Similar to the challenge of 15-10 game anyway!)

New Valar Rating = Original Rating + Change

Where; Change = 45 + (TotLose - TotWin )/150
  Eg:

Let's say everyone has a Valar rating of 1500 (for simplicity)

If you had 10 players on the winning team vs 10 and they both have the same Total Rating of 10x1500 = 15,000 then you gain 45 points as the winners, and lose 45 points as the losers. If you won with say 12 players vs 10 then as the winners you ONLY get
                         45+ (10x1500 - 12x1500)/150 = 45 + (-3000)/150 = 45 -20 = 25 points.

(The losers only lose 25 points).

With a 15-10 split then the example is:

                         45 + (10x1500-15x1500)/150 = 45 + (15000-22500)/150 = 45 -7500/150 = 45 - 50 = MINUS 5 points (ie with a 15-10 split you LOSE points not many but some).

The losers gain 5 points! (I am hoping that this system will actually reduce the 15-10 boring games that do occasionally happen out there - although I doubt it will have a dramatic impact).

It also gives me a rough guide to even teams. Ie when setting up a game if I see that there is a massive differential in Ratings then I know that the game is going to be squiffed in favour of the higher rated team (in most cases) and that I might need to get a few more highly rated (generally better) players on the other side. How can that be bad?!

Heck, in the name of Rating Points might as well get my brother-in-
law to sign up for the same game I am joining but on the other side.
Since he isn't interested in MEPBM, he can just forward me all the
PDF printouts of the opposing team (guess we can say goodbye to
sharing PDFs, Yahoo groups etc). Currently there isn't really any
incentive to do this, as it would just screw up your current game.
But heck, in the name of Rating Points, Bragging Rights, Fame and
maybe Prizes, why not?

*** We'd chuck you out if we find out. Like we already have for another player. If you want to win that bad play Solitaire with as many changes variant rules as you want... :slight_smile: Bribe us instead, or the other team... :slight_smile:

I think your opening a big can of worms trying to add systems that
are appropriate for single player games into this one.

*** The rules (IE VPs) are already there. It's just that we don't pay them much heed at present. Your individual rating under Maia and Valar will go up and down - but your team-mates and yourself in that game GAIN (or Lose) the same amount. Ie still very much a team game - it has no impact on team-play that I can see - or am I missing something drastic here? The AInur rating is the absolute team rating - no individual aspects at all. As for Istari this is more individual and specifically created that way to represent a tally of the GSI scoring system over time. So some are more individual (Istari, then Maia and Valar, then Ainur in descending order) but all promote team play (you have to win to get more points). I know that some players will enjoy the Istari (more individual prowess - but still within the remit of having to win) rating system, but others won't and so can ignore it their leisure.

Clint

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Player <pbmnoot@y...> wrote:

You will never get the players to vote after the game
is over. Not enough to bother with. I'd vote, LGT and
RD would vote, a handfull of other's would vote, but
it's hard enough, it seems, sending in turn reports or
even politely replying to crucial emails DURING the
game.

Brad

And - as anyone who has watched any of those sorry reality TV shows
can testify - schemes where players get to vote on one another can get
just as ugly as any of the worst-case scenarios being discused here.
Far easier to blame not gettting your just top rating on quirks in the
game scoring system :slight_smile:

cheers,

Marc

···

--- "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:
> At 15:19 15/09/2002, Sam wrote:
> >I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.
> >
> >Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:
> >
> >Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65
> characters,
> >but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those
> successful
> >930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the face
> of
> >stiff Gondor invasion.
> >
> >Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated
> the
> >encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...
>
> Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than detracts
> from
> it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting
> system, as
> a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so superior to
> an
> "Istari" system, where numerical data is
> extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do you
> think
> made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin
> to
> weigh up all the complex considerations above. Voting, where players
> will
> try to consider the effort and the circumstances, gives Woodmen, the
> chance
> to outshine Noldo. Voting gives a Dragon Lord who held up the enemy
> for 20
> turns and ended on one MT and a camp, the chance to outshine a BlS,
> who
> built himself a nice private empire.
>
>
> Laurence G. Tilley
>
> http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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You will never get the players to vote after the game
  is over. Not enough to bother with. I'd vote, LGT and
  RD would vote, a handfull of other's would vote, but
  it's hard enough, it seems, sending in turn reports or
  even politely replying to crucial emails DURING the
  game.

  Brad
  RD: I agree not everyone would vote, but I suspect the abstainers would be unlikely to collect any votes either!

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Player
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 10:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Player Ratings

  --- "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
  > At 15:19 15/09/2002, Sam wrote:
  > >I don't think its at all easy to pick out a best player.
  > >
  > >Some games are won by quiet, dull economic accountancy :slight_smile:
  > >
  > >Its easy to say that the Cloud Lord won the game by killing 65
  > characters,
  > >but perhaps it was actually the Quiet Avenger with all those
  > successful
  > >930s, or even the Fire King who balanced a dodgy economy in the face
  > of
  > >stiff Gondor invasion.
  > >
  > >Or maybe the player who kept track of camp placement, or collated
  > the
  > >encounter reports, or kept up team morale with humourous emails...
  >
  > Yes, but what you say _supports_ Richard's point rather than detracts
  > from
  > it. It is precisely because it is so difficult, that an voting
  > system, as
  > a method of rating individuals (rather than teams) is so superior to
  > an
  > "Istari" system, where numerical data is
  > extracted/handicapped/processed. Only by asking players "who do you
  > think
  > made the best contributions to the team victory" can we hope to begin
  > to
  > weigh up all the complex considerations above. Voting, where players
  > will
  > try to consider the effort and the circumstances, gives Woodmen, the
  > chance
  > to outshine Noldo. Voting gives a Dragon Lord who held up the enemy
  > for 20
  > turns and ended on one MT and a camp, the chance to outshine a BlS,
  > who
  > built himself a nice private empire.
  >
  >
  > Laurence G. Tilley
  >
  > http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
  >
  >
  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >
  > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >

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