Playing Past Turn 10

From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>

> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0000
> [...]
> This has been discussed before without too much input from
> "the company" except to state that this isn't a problem. I
> still think it is. I've seen a number of people drop or
> suggest dropping even when a team is winning or even.

Well, I have a bit to share on this point.

My team just played Clint's team this year in a grudge game. Half of
us were playing our first game ever.

They're good. Really good. They obviously know quite a lot about the
details of the game mechanics, etc. Not exactly news, but worth
noting. Plus they all live in the same place (or thereabouts) and
meet weekly to go over their strategy and orders. Very tough to beat
that kind of coordination when your team is scattered across three
time zones and your tools are E-Mail, rare usage of an Instant
Messenger program, and the occassionally expensive phone call.

Admittedly, this was a grudge game as opposed to the artistic beauty
of the original game intent. But it's still relevant to the point I
will eventually make here.

Anyway, the Northmen held on one of the most voracious combined LR/KE
assaults our Team Captain had ever seen. Though the game ended with
some DS in the Western back area, the Team Captain evaluates that the
"flanks held".

Unfortunately, a new player didn't protect against a Heavy Cav assault
on the Ranger Capital (did, in fact, move his defensive forced out on
the turn they arrived, and not as a roadblock) -- we lost the Rangers
on Turn 4. The *center* fell due to a number of newbie mistakes.

And here's the relevant bit: On Turn 10 they asked us to concede.

We initially declined. It's worth playing a bad game to learn how the
game works (and to see how well you react to the shifting sands of
your lot in life). In the end, even when losing, extracting the most
pain out of your enemy while dying is still a lot of fun, and you
still can hone your skills by playing the best of the best, so to
speak. You learn a lot about yourself and about Life during hard
times. As in Life, so in MEPBM. For us, the apparently inevitable
losers, there was great value in continuing. Most of the team agreed.

However, they countered by offering to surrender to *us* in order to
"stop the pain" and move on to a new game. So we surrendered and
moved on to a new grudge game.

My take on this is that they thought quitting when the game was
"obviously" over was the right thing to do.

So of *course* they don't believe it's a problem. *They* appear to be
on the side of the fence that believes you play not until the
inevitable comes, but rather until the inevitable is inevitable.

Don't get me wrong -- I love what Clint & company have done to
stabilize the availability of MEPBM. I love the modernization they're
undertaking (moving the code to PC, etc.). I love the idea that we
may soon have the option of playing games using the same (or similar)
rules but with new scenarios, on new maps, with new Characters, new
baseline assumption sets, etc.

You guys miss the old days where fog of war included the Dragons, the
Riddles and the Artifacts? Here's a chance to get some of that back.
When they write completely new scenarios to work on completely new
maps, you're not going to enter the game with a detailedly set idea of
the strategies needed. You won't have "canned" moves. You'll have to
actually think about things, do both short and long term planning,
etc.

It won't be Middle Earth, but it will be in the *genre* with the same
*rules*, while reinstating a lot of the unknowns. The game could take
on a lot of its old appeal in the fog-of-war department.

So I'm very happy with Clint & company and the work they're doing.

But when the company says early drop-outs aren't a problem, I suspect
it is not because they don't see it happening; I suspect it is because
when it happens, they don't see it as *problem*.

Two cents and all that rot.

···

_________________
Steven K. Mariner
skmyg@bhmk.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~marinersk/
http://www.whirlyjigmusic.com/

Steven,

I think you're spot on here. Clint & Co., are doing a fabulous job with the current environment. In the "old days" there were games where single players would be taking on 3 or 4 opponents on turn 60+... and occasionally win! As a veteran I feel saddened that these kinds of player mentalities rarely exist in the modern game. You may find one or two in a game willing to go on but never enough to keep the game running. It's obvious a different opinion rules the modern player base. I think the example you mention including Clint's team is a perfect example of this. It's not wrong. There is no moral issue here that I can see. It would just be nice to see more players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit. But I realize that will very rarely happen and as time progresses I have become more accepting of this. My greatest angst comes from paying 5 setups fees for 5 games only to have 4 of them end within 10 turns. Makes me feel like I'm actually paying inflated prices to get one real game. But if it really truly bothered me so badly then I would not be playing this game at all. Obviously the world hasn't ended yet, no matter how much people like to complain. =)

Tom

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Steven K. Mariner
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com ; Steven K. Mariner
  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:32 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Playing Past Turn 10

  > From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>
  > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0000
  > [...]
  > This has been discussed before without too much input from
  > "the company" except to state that this isn't a problem. I
  > still think it is. I've seen a number of people drop or
  > suggest dropping even when a team is winning or even.

  Well, I have a bit to share on this point.

  My team just played Clint's team this year in a grudge game. Half of
  us were playing our first game ever.

  They're good. Really good. They obviously know quite a lot about the
  details of the game mechanics, etc. Not exactly news, but worth
  noting. Plus they all live in the same place (or thereabouts) and
  meet weekly to go over their strategy and orders. Very tough to beat
  that kind of coordination when your team is scattered across three
  time zones and your tools are E-Mail, rare usage of an Instant
  Messenger program, and the occassionally expensive phone call.

  Admittedly, this was a grudge game as opposed to the artistic beauty
  of the original game intent. But it's still relevant to the point I
  will eventually make here.

  Anyway, the Northmen held on one of the most voracious combined LR/KE
  assaults our Team Captain had ever seen. Though the game ended with
  some DS in the Western back area, the Team Captain evaluates that the
  "flanks held".

  Unfortunately, a new player didn't protect against a Heavy Cav assault
  on the Ranger Capital (did, in fact, move his defensive forced out on
  the turn they arrived, and not as a roadblock) -- we lost the Rangers
  on Turn 4. The *center* fell due to a number of newbie mistakes.

  And here's the relevant bit: On Turn 10 they asked us to concede.

  We initially declined. It's worth playing a bad game to learn how the
  game works (and to see how well you react to the shifting sands of
  your lot in life). In the end, even when losing, extracting the most
  pain out of your enemy while dying is still a lot of fun, and you
  still can hone your skills by playing the best of the best, so to
  speak. You learn a lot about yourself and about Life during hard
  times. As in Life, so in MEPBM. For us, the apparently inevitable
  losers, there was great value in continuing. Most of the team agreed.

  However, they countered by offering to surrender to *us* in order to
  "stop the pain" and move on to a new game. So we surrendered and
  moved on to a new grudge game.

  My take on this is that they thought quitting when the game was
  "obviously" over was the right thing to do.

  So of *course* they don't believe it's a problem. *They* appear to be
  on the side of the fence that believes you play not until the
  inevitable comes, but rather until the inevitable is inevitable.

  Don't get me wrong -- I love what Clint & company have done to
  stabilize the availability of MEPBM. I love the modernization they're
  undertaking (moving the code to PC, etc.). I love the idea that we
  may soon have the option of playing games using the same (or similar)
  rules but with new scenarios, on new maps, with new Characters, new
  baseline assumption sets, etc.

  You guys miss the old days where fog of war included the Dragons, the
  Riddles and the Artifacts? Here's a chance to get some of that back.
  When they write completely new scenarios to work on completely new
  maps, you're not going to enter the game with a detailedly set idea of
  the strategies needed. You won't have "canned" moves. You'll have to
  actually think about things, do both short and long term planning,
  etc.

  It won't be Middle Earth, but it will be in the *genre* with the same
  *rules*, while reinstating a lot of the unknowns. The game could take
  on a lot of its old appeal in the fog-of-war department.

  So I'm very happy with Clint & company and the work they're doing.

  But when the company says early drop-outs aren't a problem, I suspect
  it is not because they don't see it happening; I suspect it is because
  when it happens, they don't see it as *problem*.

  Two cents and all that rot.

  _________________
  Steven K. Mariner
  skmyg@bhmk.com
  http://home.earthlink.net/~marinersk/
  http://www.whirlyjigmusic.com/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe there should be a game in which only players determined to see it
through to the very bitter end can take part. I'm serious. It might take a
while to reach the required number of players, but at least none of us could
complain about drops!

A game in which having a long term view actually matters... Nice!

Gavin

Thomas Littleton wrote:

···

It would just be nice to see more
players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit.

Hey Clint et al, this sounds interesting. No substitute players, the
whole game is stuck with who we got. Maybe there should be some lump
sum fee for this game. (Eliminates the downside of a "bug hunt.") I'd
be interested. Maybe no teams, no multiple nations, individuals only.
I'd go for a game this way.

Maybe one of the newly programmed games could be this way (add back
the unknown as well).

Kevin

Maybe there should be a game in which only players determined to

see it

through to the very bitter end can take part. I'm serious. It might

take a

while to reach the required number of players, but at least none of

us could

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

complain about drops!

A game in which having a long term view actually matters... Nice!

Gavin

Thomas Littleton wrote:

> It would just be nice to see more
> players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit.

Simply advertise a game where dropped nations will under no circumstances be replaced or transferred. The lump sum might be manageable as a large set-up fee and then an extended number of free turns..? Or the lump sum might be an option to player vote upon registering into the game..?

Brad

Hey Clint et al, this sounds interesting. No substitute players, the
whole game is stuck with who we got. Maybe there should be some lump
sum fee for this game. (Eliminates the downside of a "bug hunt.") I'd
be interested. Maybe no teams, no multiple nations, individuals only.
I'd go for a game this way.

Maybe one of the newly programmed games could be this way (add back
the unknown as well).

Kevin

Maybe there should be a game in which only players determined to

see it

through to the very bitter end can take part. I'm serious. It might

take a

while to reach the required number of players, but at least none of

us could

complain about drops!

A game in which having a long term view actually matters... Nice!

Gavin

Thomas Littleton wrote:

> It would just be nice to see more
> players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit.

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

Kevin Brown <mornhm@soltec.net> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj wrote:

Sure if you can find another 11/12 players we'll advertise it. The all
Neutral game is presently no replacements.

Clint

···

Hey Clint et al, this sounds interesting. No substitute players, the
whole game is stuck with who we got. Maybe there should be some lump
sum fee for this game. (Eliminates the downside of a "bug hunt.") I'd
be interested. Maybe no teams, no multiple nations, individuals only.
I'd go for a game this way.

Maybe one of the newly programmed games could be this way (add back
the unknown as well).

Kevin

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
> Maybe there should be a game in which only players determined to
see it
> through to the very bitter end can take part. I'm serious. It might
take a
> while to reach the required number of players, but at least none of
us could
> complain about drops!
>
> A game in which having a long term view actually matters... Nice!
>
> Gavin
>
> Thomas Littleton wrote:
>
> > It would just be nice to see more
> > players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit.

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

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How many people are interested? It would be really cool if we could
get 25 players right away.

What about random nation assignment? If "we" go out and find players,
it eliminates the team/grudge concept.

What scenario - 1650/2950?

What would the lump sum be - Clint? (I think this was offered before -
maybe it still is being offered).

I'd be in for one nation.

Kevin

Sure if you can find another 11/12 players we'll advertise it. The

all

Neutral game is presently no replacements.

Clint

>Hey Clint et al, this sounds interesting. No substitute players,

the

>whole game is stuck with who we got. Maybe there should be some

lump

>sum fee for this game. (Eliminates the downside of a "bug hunt.")

I'd

>be interested. Maybe no teams, no multiple nations, individuals

only.

>I'd go for a game this way.
>
>Maybe one of the newly programmed games could be this way (add back
>the unknown as well).
>
>Kevin
>
> > Maybe there should be a game in which only players determined to
>see it
> > through to the very bitter end can take part. I'm serious. It

might

>take a
> > while to reach the required number of players, but at least

none of

>us could
> > complain about drops!
> >
> > A game in which having a long term view actually matters...

Nice!

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, ME Games Ltd <me@M...> wrote:

>--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Gavin
> >
> > Thomas Littleton wrote:
> >
> > > It would just be nice to see more
> > > players with a stubborn streak and some long term grit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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         me@m...
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: PO Box 680155, Marietta, GA 30068-0003
         Tel 770 579 6813 EST Weekdays
         Fax 503 296 2325
****************************************************************
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What would the lump sum be - Clint? (I think this was offered before -
maybe it still is being offered).

Nothing at present. We needed funds for the GSI deal but now we're
planning for the long term.

Clint

···

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My team just played Clint's team this year in a grudge game. Half of us
were playing our first game ever.

It was an interesting game, for most of our team they were in their first
2950 game and we learnt a lot (NM and WW play was very cool for
example). At game start I thought it would be a challenging game, and in
many ways it was.

They're good. Really good. They obviously know quite a lot about the
details of the game mechanics, etc. Not exactly news, but worth
noting.

Sam and I have learnt a lot from FTF events - basically if you want to
learn how to play the game I'd strongly advise making one of these. The
other advise I'd give is don't pay too much attention to the "basic/canned"
strategies... :slight_smile:

  Plus they all live in the same place (or thereabouts) and meet weekly
to go over their strategy and orders.

Yep. Good fun it is as well... :slight_smile:

Anyway, the Northmen held on one of the most voracious combined LR/KE
assaults our Team Captain had ever seen. Though the game ended with
some DS in the Western back area, the Team Captain evaluates that the
"flanks held".

Yeh pretty much. Good defence there.

And here's the relevant bit: On Turn 10 they asked us to concede. We
initially declined.

My take on this is that they thought quitting when the game was

"obviously" over was the right thing to do.

For us there was little challenge left in the game and it couldn't have
been much fun for you guys.

So of *course* they don't believe it's a problem. *They* appear to be on
the side of the fence that believes you play not until the
inevitable comes, but rather until the inevitable is inevitable.

Yes, that's my personal take - but I understand and support the fact that
others in the game want different things. As a company we'll continue to
support that. I can clearly differentiate between Clint (player) and Clint
(GM) and often take a step back to make sure no lines are being crossed and
that I am listening to what the player base wants.

So that means that there's unlikely to be any improvements to 1650/2950 in
the short term. But for those that want new things we're working on a new
module with lots of new challenges, things to learn and lots of interesting
tweaks. I can't see it being out for 6-12 mths though but if you're
interested in being involved get in touch. I'm also looking at 1000
updating that - my take is that Bill and Pete didn't put as much work into
the balance of the game (developing the new scenario it's a lot of work and
working out exactly what will happen is very hard to do.) I think they got
it pretty much right on 1650/2950 but 1000 is clearly lacking.

You won't have "canned" moves. You'll have to actually think about
things, do both short and long term planning, etc.

My own take is that there are no canned moves. "Lazy" players go for them,
but there's always a new way of looking at things.

It won't be Middle Earth, but it will be in the *genre* with the same
*rules*, while reinstating a lot of the unknowns. The game could take
on a lot of its old appeal in the fog-of-war department.

Hopefully it will be ME! :slight_smile: 1432 3rd Age but still set in the world of
Tolkien.

But when the company says early drop-outs aren't a problem, I suspect it
is not because they don't see it happening; I suspect it is because
when it happens, they don't see it as *problem*.

There's some interesting perspectives here. Are players happy? If so
that's fine. (Taking into account that you can never please all of the
people all of the time). If not - why not and what can we do about
it? Clearly some players would like a longer game. So the question I then
ask myself is what do they like about the longer game? One thing is the
developed characters and economies (clear from what players seem to like
about 1000 - the characters). So we're working on that for Kin Strife.

Customizable set-up for KS means that things won't be known as much, and
hopefully it will keep the strategic part of the game. But that's all for
the future. So what about now?

Well Grudge games is where I think it's at for that but that's my own
personal opinion. I consistently fine stronger play and more committed
players in this format in general. If you want a more individual game then
GB is possible, or the All Neutral game, or any other possibility. I think
all the above formats give you the longer game format. So a no email or
diplos only game is possible, but we've tried to set these up several times
in the past and invariably they have failed to appear or work. I don't
think it a problem to experiment and try things out - as long as you guys
are happy then we're happy. In the normal format games players want
different things so clearly the team will pull in different directions.

Asking individually minded players to commit to the long term is almost a
contradiction in terms I feel. Different players want different things, so
as a player in some games I've written roleplaying style diplos as a
Neutral in others virtually no diplomacy at all. In some games I'm happy
if my team-mates get a turn in (whew!) in others I'm disappointed if we
don't capture Morannon on turn 5... :slight_smile: So I something I, as a player,
have had to learn and adapt to, is that different games have different
styles, different objectives and ways of achieving them etc. Ie I try to
be adaptable; I find that my fun is improved a lot with this simple concept
that I try to take into each game. This doesn't mean that I won't throw my
toys out of the pram when a team-mates misses a turn, or fails to upload
his turn to the yahoogroups for the 5th time running, but that I try to put
it into perspective.

When we took over DGE's games there were many games with lots of drop outs
in them so it's not a Harlequin development. (Chatting to Stu GSI's days
were full of that as well). Players' expectations are somewhat different
nowadays; ie the game (or at least the players) have moved on.

For reference; there are LOTS of games that last past 26 turns, and quite a
few that last past 52 (2 years) play. Clearly there are going to be More
games that last less than that just due to some basic maths. (Eg 5, 10
turn games for the same time as 1 game lasting 50+ turns for example). So
that definitely swings the perception of game-play and games ending more
quickly as you'll see more games that end more quickly than ones that last
longer.

<Gets off soapbox, exits left... >

Hope that's helpful.

Clint (apologies for mixing GM and player here).

···

----------

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But when the company says early drop-outs aren't a problem, I suspect
it is not because they don't see it happening; I suspect it is because
when it happens, they don't see it as *problem*.

** To me, drop-outs and team surrender are two totally different things. "Drop out" is when a single player jets off leaving his team behind to frantically put orders together for his nation that turn and find a new player for the next. I really don't have a problem with the guy that says "Hey, I need to get out of this game, but will play another 2 turns until you guys find somebody."

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Steven K. Mariner
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com ; Steven K. Mariner
  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:32 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Playing Past Turn 10

  > From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>
  > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0000
  > [...]
  > This has been discussed before without too much input from
  > "the company" except to state that this isn't a problem. I
  > still think it is. I've seen a number of people drop or
  > suggest dropping even when a team is winning or even.

  Well, I have a bit to share on this point.

  My team just played Clint's team this year in a grudge game. Half of
  us were playing our first game ever.

  They're good. Really good. They obviously know quite a lot about the
  details of the game mechanics, etc. Not exactly news, but worth
  noting. Plus they all live in the same place (or thereabouts) and
  meet weekly to go over their strategy and orders. Very tough to beat
  that kind of coordination when your team is scattered across three
  time zones and your tools are E-Mail, rare usage of an Instant
  Messenger program, and the occassionally expensive phone call.

  Admittedly, this was a grudge game as opposed to the artistic beauty
  of the original game intent. But it's still relevant to the point I
  will eventually make here.

  Anyway, the Northmen held on one of the most voracious combined LR/KE
  assaults our Team Captain had ever seen. Though the game ended with
  some DS in the Western back area, the Team Captain evaluates that the
  "flanks held".

  Unfortunately, a new player didn't protect against a Heavy Cav assault
  on the Ranger Capital (did, in fact, move his defensive forced out on
  the turn they arrived, and not as a roadblock) -- we lost the Rangers
  on Turn 4. The *center* fell due to a number of newbie mistakes.

  And here's the relevant bit: On Turn 10 they asked us to concede.

  We initially declined. It's worth playing a bad game to learn how the
  game works (and to see how well you react to the shifting sands of
  your lot in life). In the end, even when losing, extracting the most
  pain out of your enemy while dying is still a lot of fun, and you
  still can hone your skills by playing the best of the best, so to
  speak. You learn a lot about yourself and about Life during hard
  times. As in Life, so in MEPBM. For us, the apparently inevitable
  losers, there was great value in continuing. Most of the team agreed.

  However, they countered by offering to surrender to *us* in order to
  "stop the pain" and move on to a new game. So we surrendered and
  moved on to a new grudge game.

  My take on this is that they thought quitting when the game was
  "obviously" over was the right thing to do.

  So of *course* they don't believe it's a problem. *They* appear to be
  on the side of the fence that believes you play not until the
  inevitable comes, but rather until the inevitable is inevitable.

  Don't get me wrong -- I love what Clint & company have done to
  stabilize the availability of MEPBM. I love the modernization they're
  undertaking (moving the code to PC, etc.). I love the idea that we
  may soon have the option of playing games using the same (or similar)
  rules but with new scenarios, on new maps, with new Characters, new
  baseline assumption sets, etc.

  You guys miss the old days where fog of war included the Dragons, the
  Riddles and the Artifacts? Here's a chance to get some of that back.
  When they write completely new scenarios to work on completely new
  maps, you're not going to enter the game with a detailedly set idea of
  the strategies needed. You won't have "canned" moves. You'll have to
  actually think about things, do both short and long term planning,
  etc.

  It won't be Middle Earth, but it will be in the *genre* with the same
  *rules*, while reinstating a lot of the unknowns. The game could take
  on a lot of its old appeal in the fog-of-war department.

  So I'm very happy with Clint & company and the work they're doing.

  But when the company says early drop-outs aren't a problem, I suspect
  it is not because they don't see it happening; I suspect it is because
  when it happens, they don't see it as *problem*.

  Two cents and all that rot.

  _________________
  Steven K. Mariner
  skmyg@bhmk.com
  http://home.earthlink.net/~marinersk/
  http://www.whirlyjigmusic.com/

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