The following mepbmlist poll is now closed. Here are the final results:
POLL QUESTION: In general, are you interested in playing new scenarios,
as and when they are proposed?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Yes, 4 votes, 26.67%
- No, 1 votes, 6.67%
- It depends on the scenario, 10 votes, 66.67%
Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance" Scenario?
Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a character
would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
Curious how it played out, who won and when.
Mike
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--- In mepbmlist@y..., mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@y...> wrote:
Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance" Scenario?
Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a character
would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).Curious how it played out, who won and when.
There is a need to properly analyze the game and see how it can be
tuned better. The Free People won, after the Dark Servants all
resigned/conceded on turn 15 or so. After turn 3 or 4, all the DS ever
did, was try to rush enough troops to the Morannon pass to keep back
the large and huge FP armies which was pouring into it each turn, and
steadily gaining a foothold. With minimum production, and FP agents
emptying Harad, and any available DS coffers, we had 2 people on 98%
tax. The last straw was when the Free People managed to kill both the
commanders, and backup commanders of 2 Harad armies rushing up to
reinforce the Minas Morgul pass, ensuring that Morgul would be falling
the next turn.
From the DS side, we felt the biggest imbalance was that besides the
QA and Harad in the South, we all started inside Mordor. It gave us a
huge disadvantage to have to cross unroaded deserts and 2 mountains
before our armies could even think about going on the offensive,
meanwhile FP cavalry armies was blocking us at 3120 then 3221, making
it impossible for us to do anything offensive once our starting
cavalry armies was dead.
Example: on turn 10, there was 11 armies on 3221 (Morannon), 2 smalls
(IK and Eoth), 7 armies (1 WK, rest FP), 1 large (FK) and one huge
(N-Gondor), all in all there was (all sides) over 14000 troops at
Morannon that turn.
Since the artifact list was randomised, it meant our mages spent alot
of time researching artifacts, and locating any useful ones.
We had no sickness or curses squads, as there was only 1 character who
even knew any of those spells, Sickness at (62).
I'd love to play in another game if it gets tuned a bit, I think the
larger armies and larger populations make it a fun game.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "otvedten" <oysteint@i...> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@y..., mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@y...> wrote:
> Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance" Scenario?
> Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a character
> would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
>
> Curious how it played out, who won and when.
>There is a need to properly analyze the game and see how it can be
tuned better.
Richard or Clint - I got most the turns of the Dark Servants, if there
is a wish to look the scenario over, and such, they can be sent to
you.
Øystein
Here is a copy of the "Last Alliance" scenario
description that Harleqin has put together:
Mike
--- otvedten <oysteint@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "otvedten" <oysteint@i...>
wrote:
> --- In mepbmlist@y..., mike bateman
<mike_a_bateman@y...> wrote:
> > Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance"
Scenario?
> > Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a
character
> > would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
> >
> > Curious how it played out, who won and when.
> >
>
> There is a need to properly analyze the game and
see how it can be
> tuned better.Richard or Clint - I got most the turns of the Dark
Servants, if there
is a wish to look the scenario over, and such, they
can be sent to
you.Øystein
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance" Scenario?
Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a character
would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).Curious how it played out, who won and when.
Mike
RD: I played the Woodies in the (so far) only game of Last Alliance so far,
which ran last year. FP won relatively easily, I thought, although both SGo
and Dorwinion took a battering first. We had a really excellent player,
Marc Pinnsoneault, as "Chief of Staff" pulling the various strategic threads
together. Our teamwork under his guidance was the deciding factor in our
victory, despite one of our other guys being the "weakest link."
Some players on both sides obviously enjoyed it, others weren't too
impressed. I have to say that as Woodies I found it dull compared with
other games. I was never attacked, and all I had to do was keep churning
out armies and agents and pouring them into Mordor. Certainly the increased
polarization of the two sides meant that for many nations, it was several
turns before they could get into action. I get the impresion that the DS
were not as well-organised as we were, and if so, that was a major factor in
their early collapse. They surrendered before we got as far as Barad-dur.
Hope that answers your questions! I also hope you get some feedback from
other players, especially the DS.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 1:40 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance
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--- In mepbmlist@y..., "otvedten" <oysteint@i...> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@y..., mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@y...> wrote:
> Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance" Scenario?
> Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a character
> would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
>
> Curious how it played out, who won and when.
>There is a need to properly analyze the game and see how it can be
tuned better.
Richard or Clint - I got most the turns of the Dark Servants, if there
is a wish to look the scenario over, and such, they can be sent to
you.
�ystein
RD: Thanks Oystein. I agree there is a need to properly analyze the game,
but I think "tuning" it after just one play is a bit premature. What is
needed is for two teams of approximately equal competence to play two games,
one each as FP and one as DS. If the FP win both, that is possible evidence
of an imbalance which needs to be corrected.
We had, as I said earlier, an excellent player co-ordinating our FP moves,
and we like to think it was our better team play that won the game, rather
than any imbalance! No offence, but it appeared from the FP perspective
that the DS were not as well co-ordinated as we were.
Finally I must point out that the 1650 game is imbalanced, but people still
queue up to play both sides. The best team will win regardless of any
imbalance!
Having said that, my impression is that the DS do need strengthening. The
economic & military balance (or imbalance) in the LA setup is modelled very
tightly on 1650. However in LA the DS have no access to dragons, and no
guaranteed pile of agent & stealth arts, both of which they have in 1650.
So perhaps the DS should be strengthened in other areas to compensate for
this.
Richard.
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----- Original Message -----
From: otvedten <oysteint@ifi.uio.no>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 2:15 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Last Alliance
Hello Richard!
I read with great interest your email regarding the
Last Alliance scenerio. I'm very curious to know
about the characters and nations. Could someone send
me a few set ups? The Noldor and Dark Lts. would be
great, and maybe Northern Gondor too?
Is it true that Sauron is a character? And if you
can't send a set-up, could someone tell me what the
stats were for Gil-Galad? He was always one of my
favorite "minor characters" from Tolkien, since he is
one of the few individuals, Eldar or Edain, who have
stood up to the Dark Lord on the field of battle.
Thanks!
Nick Cody
--- richard devereux <r.devereux@virgin.net> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 1:40 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance> Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance"
Scenario?
> Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a
character
> would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
>
> Curious how it played out, who won and when.
>
> MikeRD: I played the Woodies in the (so far) only game
of Last Alliance so far,
which ran last year. FP won relatively easily, I
thought, although both SGo
and Dorwinion took a battering first. We had a
really excellent player,
Marc Pinnsoneault, as "Chief of Staff" pulling the
various strategic threads
together. Our teamwork under his guidance was the
deciding factor in our
victory, despite one of our other guys being the
"weakest link."Some players on both sides obviously enjoyed it,
others weren't too
impressed. I have to say that as Woodies I found it
dull compared with
other games. I was never attacked, and all I had to
do was keep churning
out armies and agents and pouring them into Mordor.
Certainly the increased
polarization of the two sides meant that for many
nations, it was several
turns before they could get into action. I get the
impresion that the DS
were not as well-organised as we were, and if so,
that was a major factor in
their early collapse. They surrendered before we
got as far as Barad-dur.Hope that answers your questions! I also hope you
get some feedback from
other players, especially the DS.Richard.
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Since the artifact list was randomised, it meant our mages spent alot
of time researching artifacts, and locating any useful ones.
I was on the FP side in this game but got the Dorwinion who sucked big time.
I had to be constantly bolstered with gold shipments.
We did get one advantage (lucky) from the randomised artefact listings. One
of our side (Dwarves I think) got hold artefact ROW in his victory
conditions and of course that gave us the artefact number so we were able to
locate it and pick it up.
Mike
--- In mepbmlist@y..., Nick Cody <ncodyjapan@y...> wrote:
--- richard devereux <r.devereux@v...> wrote:
>
> From: mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@y...>
> To: <mepbmlist@y...>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 1:40 AM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance
>
>
> > Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance"
> Scenario?
> > Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a
> character
> > would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
> >
> > Curious how it played out, who won and when.
> >
> > Mike
>
> RD: I played the Woodies in the (so far) only game
> of Last Alliance so far,
> which ran last year. FP won relatively easily, I
> thought, although both SGo
> and Dorwinion took a battering first. We had a
> really excellent player,
> Marc Pinnsoneault, as "Chief of Staff" pulling the
> various strategic threads
> together. Our teamwork under his guidance was the
> deciding factor in our
> victory, despite one of our other guys being the
> "weakest link."
>
> Some players on both sides obviously enjoyed it,
> others weren't too
> impressed. I have to say that as Woodies I found it
> dull compared with
> other games. I was never attacked, and all I had to
> do was keep churning
> out armies and agents and pouring them into Mordor.
> Certainly the increased
> polarization of the two sides meant that for many
> nations, it was several
> turns before they could get into action. I get the
> impresion that the DS
> were not as well-organised as we were, and if so,
> that was a major factor in
> their early collapse. They surrendered before we
> got as far as Barad-dur.
>
> Hope that answers your questions! I also hope you
> get some feedback from
> other players, especially the DS.
>
> Richard.Hello Richard!
I read with great interest your email regarding the
Last Alliance scenerio. I'm very curious to know
about the characters and nations. Could someone send
me a few set ups? The Noldor and Dark Lts. would be
great, and maybe Northern Gondor too?Is it true that Sauron is a character? And if you
can't send a set-up, could someone tell me what the
stats were for Gil-Galad? He was always one of my
favorite "minor characters" from Tolkien, since he is
one of the few individuals, Eldar or Edain, who have
stood up to the Dark Lord on the field of battle.Thanks!
Nick Cody
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First, thanks to Richard, Oystein, and others for their input and
feedback on the scenario.
FYI, Clint has an interesting file that pretty much summarizes the
scenario--and backs up the analaysis so far. There is no North and
South Gondor in this one, but there is a North Kingdom and a SOuth
Kingdom, either of which is economically stronger than North Gondor
ever dreamed of in 1650. Since it is 4th age based, there are no
Dragons and the artys are randomized. This tends to back up the
premise that the DS are less powerful and the FP are more powerful
than a comparable 1650 game.
And yes, Sauron is a character, a E20 E90 M90 that cannot refuse
challenge and, if he dies, the DS lose. Gil-Galad is a C70 E60 M70.
Of course, all of this is summarized in Clint's file. I tried to send
it out earlier, but it appears that files cannot be sent through the
board.
Mike
> ----- Original Message -----
Mike: want to send me a copy? If they ever either knock us out
of the NW in 130 or give up like some of them said they would on
turn, oh what was it?? 2?? then LA sounds like it would be a decent
adventure for the next time!
Arfanhil the Omnipotent
--- mike_a_bateman <mike_a_bateman@yahoo.com> wrote:
First, thanks to Richard, Oystein, and others for their input and
feedback on the scenario.FYI, Clint has an interesting file that pretty much summarizes the
scenario--and backs up the analaysis so far. There is no North and
South Gondor in this one, but there is a North Kingdom and a SOuth
Kingdom, either of which is economically stronger than North Gondor
ever dreamed of in 1650. Since it is 4th age based, there are no
Dragons and the artys are randomized. This tends to back up the
premise that the DS are less powerful and the FP are more powerful
than a comparable 1650 game.And yes, Sauron is a character, a E20 E90 M90 that cannot refuse
challenge and, if he dies, the DS lose. Gil-Galad is a C70 E60 M70.
Of course, all of this is summarized in Clint's file. I tried to sendit out earlier, but it appears that files cannot be sent through the
board.Mike
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Here it is, Oh Omnipotent one.
Two comments:
First, no neutrals in this one
Second, and we thought 1650 was a military bloodbath!
Look it over,
Mike
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yahoo is really uptight about attachments. in order to send something
along, you either have to attach it manually, or forward the
entire message that contains an attachment "As Attachment".
I only tell you this because I don't see any LA information
in this 3k message you sent me.....
I want to try the Woodmen, or Southern Gondor again my next
game anyway. Of course, I've always got to have a nootie in
there, since I'm only allowed 2ish games, one noot, 1 freepie,
all good.....
Arfanhil the Omnipotent 130
Sangahighandoh Psychorsair 131
--- mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Here it is, Oh Omnipotent one.
Two comments:
First, no neutrals in this one
Second, and we thought 1650 was a military bloodbath!Look it over,
Mike
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>
> From: mike bateman <mike_a_bateman@yahoo.com>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 1:40 AM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance
>
>
> > Anyone out there played the "Last Alliance"
> Scenario?
> > Looks interesting (hey, having Sauron as a
> character
> > would be highly cool, not to mention Gil Galad).
> >
> > Curious how it played out, who won and when.
> >
> > Mike
>
> RD: I played the Woodies in the (so far) only game
> of Last Alliance so far,
> which ran last year. FP won relatively easily, I
> thought, although both SGo
> and Dorwinion took a battering first. We had a
> really excellent player,
> Marc Pinnsoneault, as "Chief of Staff" pulling the
> various strategic threads
> together. Our teamwork under his guidance was the
> deciding factor in our
> victory, despite one of our other guys being the
> "weakest link."
>
> Some players on both sides obviously enjoyed it,
> others weren't too
> impressed. I have to say that as Woodies I found it
> dull compared with
> other games. I was never attacked, and all I had to
> do was keep churning
> out armies and agents and pouring them into Mordor.
> Certainly the increased
> polarization of the two sides meant that for many
> nations, it was several
> turns before they could get into action. I get the
> impresion that the DS
> were not as well-organised as we were, and if so,
> that was a major factor in
> their early collapse. They surrendered before we
> got as far as Barad-dur.
>
> Hope that answers your questions! I also hope you
> get some feedback from
> other players, especially the DS.
>
> Richard.Hello Richard!
I read with great interest your email regarding the
Last Alliance scenerio. I'm very curious to know
about the characters and nations. Could someone send
me a few set ups? The Noldor and Dark Lts. would be
great, and maybe Northern Gondor too?Is it true that Sauron is a character? And if you
can't send a set-up, could someone tell me what the
stats were for Gil-Galad? He was always one of my
favorite "minor characters" from Tolkien, since he is
one of the few individuals, Eldar or Edain, who have
stood up to the Dark Lord on the field of battle.Thanks!
Nick Cody
RD: Sauron -is- a character, as he has to be for this scenario. He has big
stats but is not invincible. Gil-galad also has big stats, but he is not
quite as strong as Sauron. I'm afraid I can't send you setups as my pc
crashed a while back and I lost all my files. However, they should all be
available from Harle if you ask them nicely. Harle may have put them on a
web page, I'm not sure, but they are the ones to ask.
Enjoy!
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Cody <ncodyjapan@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance
--- richard devereux <r.devereux@virgin.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
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--- In mepbmlist@y..., "richard devereux" <r.devereux@v...> wrote:
RD: Sauron -is- a character, as he has to be for this scenario.
He has big stats but is not invincible. Gil-galad also has
big stats, but he is not quite as strong as Sauron. I'm afraid
I can't send you setups as my pc crashed a while back and I lost
all my files. However, they should all be available from Harle
if you ask them nicely. Harle may have put them on a web page,
I'm not sure, but they are the ones to ask.
The thing about Sauron is that while he has good stats and a high
challenge rank, if he does die, the DS loose the game. This is why
you didn't see Sauron out running around in Gondor or elsewhere
challenging the FP characters to duels. A majority of the team didn't
want to take that risk.
Maybe if there is a simular condition that if Elendil and Gil-Galad
both dies, the FS loose the game? Without them to lead their nations,
the alliance falls apart?
I still say the fact that most of the Freeps have noone to fight
initially tilts the game against the Darks. In a normal 1650 game, if
the Freeps don't watch out, the WK in Angmar and DL in Misty/Mirkwood
will cause them alot of pain, which distracts them from being able to
reinforce the south. In LA they got no such distraction, and can just
pour troops towards Mordor.
The food thing isn't that hard to overcome, with some better teamwork
and planning it can be dealth with. The DS just mostly need the money
from selling food to survive, else it's simply storing food at
strategic pops in Mordor, so that armies can resupply before crossing
the mountains and such. A couple more food producing pops would help
towards that.
If I was to suggest any small changes, it would to give the DS at
least one sickness/curse artifact or SNA.
I'd swap the stealth SNA from the Ice King to the Cloud Lord, and
give all the Cloud starting characters stealth. The Silvan, Sinda and
Noldo have almost all their characters stealthed, there should be a
somewhat parity between how many starting stealth characters they are
on each side I think, espesially with the stealth and agent artifacts
being unknown.
Maybe swap some of the DS "Armies with no food" SNA's with "hire at 0
cost" instead.
Øystein, semi-rambling.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "richard devereux" <r.devereux@v...> wrote:
RD: Sauron -is- a character, as he has to be for this scenario.
He has big stats but is not invincible. Gil-galad also has
big stats, but he is not quite as strong as Sauron. I'm afraid
I can't send you setups as my pc crashed a while back and I lost
all my files. However, they should all be available from Harle
if you ask them nicely. Harle may have put them on a web page,
I'm not sure, but they are the ones to ask.
The thing about Sauron is that while he has good stats and a high
challenge rank, if he does die, the DS loose the game. This is why
you didn't see Sauron out running around in Gondor or elsewhere
challenging the FP characters to duels. A majority of the team didn't
want to take that risk.
Maybe if there is a simular condition that if Elendil and Gil-Galad
both dies, the FS loose the game? Without them to lead their nations,
the alliance falls apart?
RD: no, because historically, Sauron slew them both, but Elendil was
replaced by Isildur, and Gil-galad by Elrond & Cirdan. No-one could replace
Sauron!
I still say the fact that most of the Freeps have noone to fight
initially tilts the game against the Darks. In a normal 1650 game, if
the Freeps don't watch out, the WK in Angmar and DL in Misty/Mirkwood
will cause them alot of pain, which distracts them from being able to
reinforce the south. In LA they got no such distraction, and can just
pour troops towards Mordor.
RD: Yes, this is intentional. The FP do have to have a realistic chance of
overrunning Mordor. Altho the DS are less powerful their bases are closer
to the front line so they should be able to reinforce it quicker.
The food thing isn't that hard to overcome, with some better teamwork
and planning it can be dealth with. The DS just mostly need the money
from selling food to survive, else it's simply storing food at
strategic pops in Mordor, so that armies can resupply before crossing
the mountains and such. A couple more food producing pops would help
towards that.
RD: I've suggested elsewhere that the DS could lose 4 camps in exchange for
4 villages on the shores of Rhun. How's that?
If I was to suggest any small changes, it would to give the DS at
least one sickness/curse artifact or SNA.
RD: This might be a good idea. It would partially compensate the DS for
their lack of agent/st artifacts at start.
I'd swap the stealth SNA from the Ice King to the Cloud Lord, and
give all the Cloud starting characters stealth. The Silvan, Sinda and
Noldo have almost all their characters stealthed, there should be a
somewhat parity between how many starting stealth characters they are
on each side I think, espesially with the stealth and agent artifacts
being unknown.
Maybe swap some of the DS "Armies with no food" SNA's with "hire at 0
cost" instead.
�ystein, semi-rambling.
RD: the 4th Age setup does not permit ClL to have st as well as his other
agent bonuses. I don't think Harle can override this. It wouldn't do IcK a
lot of good to give all his starting chars stealth - it's only really useful
for agents, and is wasted on commanders.
Swapping the army SNAs as you suggest is conditional on not exceeding the
permitted total for SNA costs. "Hire at 0 cost" is more expensive than
"move without food."
Richard.
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----- Original Message -----
From: otvedten <oysteint@ifi.uio.no>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:17 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Last Alliance
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "richard devereux" <r.devereux@v...> wrote:
Swapping the army SNAs as you suggest is conditional on not
exceeding the permitted total for SNA costs. "Hire at 0 cost"
is more expensive than "move without food."
How about doing the following SNA swap for the Witch King.
Remove Hordes and Fearful hearts, add "hire at 0 cost".
This would give 3 DS with 0 cost, WK, FK and Harad.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "otvedten" <oysteint@i...> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "richard devereux" <r.devereux@v...> wrote:
>
> Swapping the army SNAs as you suggest is conditional on not
> exceeding the permitted total for SNA costs. "Hire at 0 cost"
> is more expensive than "move without food."
>How about doing the following SNA swap for the Witch King.
Remove Hordes and Fearful hearts, add "hire at 0 cost".
This would give 3 DS with 0 cost, WK, FK and Harad.
This is far too powerful and imbalancing. The WK is already
a fantastic position in this game.
Marc
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "marc_pinsonneault" <pinsonneault.1@o...>
wrote:
This is far too powerful and imbalancing. The WK is already
a fantastic position in this game.Marc
I have to disagree, it's a needed step for the DS to be able to
withstand the hordes of Freep armies pouring into Mordor from turn 3-
4 onwards.
The Witch King can't afford having to name 5 extra commanders in
order to be able to split off 100 men armies to keep recruiting, nor
can he afford to hire new armies once the FreeP kills one or two of
the recruiting commanders.
The DS agents in the first game were all at Morannon, trying their
best to kill as many of the FreeP commanders and backups as
possible. We just didn't have time to go out and steal gold, nor
enough agents of good enough rank for both stealing and killing.
Meanwhile the FreeP agents had a free hand in robbing several of the
DS nations dry, both Harad, the moneybag of the DS, and WK were
robbed for all their gold. We were sending resources to keep nations
alive, but the coffers were stolen dry by the time the 770 hire army
order was attemped.
The WK ran at 98% tax the last 5 turns, another DS nation was also
in the high 90s with tax.
Øystein, WK, game 44