Prices and capitalism

mepbmlist
#1

I don't have a problem with a price increase. I don't have a problem with differential pricing.

I have a problem with lies and spin.

This was presented as "We have to raise prices, but you can avoid it by using this great tool that is going to help you."

Bull. The price increase was NOTHING but a way of forcing us to do their jobs without them cutting their pay checks.

When this was pointed out, the response was something to the effect of, "But our employees don't like doing the job you are paying them to do." Oh, cry me a river.

Well, that spin didn't work, so next come all the posts about "What projects would you like us to work on." Here is one. How about a project that doesn't involve lieing about your motives.

Three years ago, the company I worked for announced a MAJOR improvement in time off policy. When the new policy came down, instead of 25 days off anyway I wanted to use them, I now got 10 vacation, 6 holiday, and unlimited sick. However, if you take one sick day, it costs you your 100% billable bonus ($600 over 3 months) and if you take more than 3 sick days in a row, you need a doctor's note.

Wait, I'm going from 25 days off, to 16, and this is a MAJOR improvement?!?!?! How stupid do they think I am?

When we pointed out that it was BULL that this was an improvement, the response was "changing market conditions..... cost savings..... redeployment of assets...." You know what? It pisses people off more to tell them that "getting screwed is an improvement", then to just honestly explain up front why they must get screwed.

MEPBM could learn from this. You mean I have to do your job, pay you the same, and this is some kind of magic situation for me? I don't think so.

Thank You,
John Hanibal Smith

And B.A. agrees with me. He pitties the fool that thinks doing thier job for them, or getting your arm twisted with increased fees, is a proper way to be treated as a customer.

···

From: Colin Forbes <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Prices and capitalism
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:47:39 +0100

Hi,
> MEPBM has contrived a way to cut their work load, without cutting their
> paycheck. That pisses me off. Address the point, don't try to silence
> me!!!!! It won't work!!!!

Ultimately the point, or rather the reason behind the point, is that basic capitalism dictates that cutting your workload without cutting your pay is something that ALL companies and businessmem would be happy to do. This is a fact of life in the world we live in (like it or not).

By all means express a view - customer reaction is an important part of the capitalist system - but eventually the time comes when customers have to decide to accept a rise in prices or not (i.e. keep buying the product or take their custom and money elsewhere). There is of course another capitalist pressure at work here, namely the fact that the work done by clint & Co is currently under-rewarded in financial terms. The skills involved would normally dictate a much higher price than is being discussed.

The issue for me is not a basic increase in turn-fees, but the proposed differential pricing strategy. However I'm satisfied that this is something Clint & Co are addressing. Could someone who is opposed to a price increase (as opposed to differential pricing) explain why a business which offers a great product, alongside excellent service and commitment, should not seek to reward it's highly skilled employees at a rate more in line with what these people could earn elsewhere in the market? It's no good arguing that less skilled people would need less pay, because then the game wouldn't run. If PBM were a purely market-driven business, it wouldn't exist. There aren't enough players and we don't pay enough for turns. Happily there are a lot of people out there who enjoy gaming sufficiently to run PBM games, edit PBM magazines etc. If, despite this, there is a cogent argument against a rise in prices, then by all means let's hear it and discuss it in a gentlemanly fashion.

Colin.

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#2

I have been behind you in this argument.
But this is a little to extreme. Tone down and don't be so rude I find your
tone offensive to read.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: corsairs game 101 [mailto:corsairs101@hotmail.com]
Sent: 12 April 2002 13:59
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Prices and capitalism

I don't have a problem with a price increase. I don't have a problem with
differential pricing.

I have a problem with lies and spin.

This was presented as "We have to raise prices, but you can avoid it by
using this great tool that is going to help you."

Bull. The price increase was NOTHING but a way of forcing us to do their
jobs without them cutting their pay checks.

When this was pointed out, the response was something to the effect of, "But
our employees don't like doing the job you are paying them to do." Oh, cry
me a river.

Well, that spin didn't work, so next come all the posts about "What projects
would you like us to work on." Here is one. How about a project that
doesn't involve lieing about your motives.

Three years ago, the company I worked for announced a MAJOR improvement in
time off policy. When the new policy came down, instead of 25 days off
anyway I wanted to use them, I now got 10 vacation, 6 holiday, and unlimited
sick. However, if you take one sick day, it costs you your 100% billable
bonus ($600 over 3 months) and if you take more than 3 sick days in a row,
you need a doctor's note.

Wait, I'm going from 25 days off, to 16, and this is a MAJOR
improvement?!?!?! How stupid do they think I am?

When we pointed out that it was BULL that this was an improvement, the
response was "changing market conditions..... cost savings.....
redeployment of assets...." You know what? It pisses people off more to
tell them that "getting screwed is an improvement", then to just honestly
explain up front why they must get screwed.

MEPBM could learn from this. You mean I have to do your job, pay you the
same, and this is some kind of magic situation for me? I don't think so.

Thank You,
John Hanibal Smith

And B.A. agrees with me. He pitties the fool that thinks doing thier job
for them, or getting your arm twisted with increased fees, is a proper way
to be treated as a customer.

From: Colin Forbes <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Prices and capitalism
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:47:39 +0100

Hi,
> MEPBM has contrived a way to cut their work load, without cutting their
> paycheck. That pisses me off. Address the point, don't try to silence
> me!!!!! It won't work!!!!

Ultimately the point, or rather the reason behind the point, is that basic
capitalism dictates that cutting your workload without cutting your pay is
something that ALL companies and businessmem would be happy to do. This is
a fact of life in the world we live in (like it or not).

By all means express a view - customer reaction is an important part of the
capitalist system - but eventually the time comes when customers have to
decide to accept a rise in prices or not (i.e. keep buying the product or
take their custom and money elsewhere). There is of course another
capitalist pressure at work here, namely the fact that the work done by
clint & Co is currently under-rewarded in financial terms. The skills
involved would normally dictate a much higher price than is being
discussed.

The issue for me is not a basic increase in turn-fees, but the proposed
differential pricing strategy. However I'm satisfied that this is something
Clint & Co are addressing. Could someone who is opposed to a price increase
(as opposed to differential pricing) explain why a business which offers a
great product, alongside excellent service and commitment, should not seek
to reward it's highly skilled employees at a rate more in line with what
these people could earn elsewhere in the market? It's no good arguing that
less skilled people would need less pay, because then the game wouldn't
run. If PBM were a purely market-driven business, it wouldn't exist. There
aren't enough players and we don't pay enough for turns. Happily there are
a lot of people out there who enjoy gaming sufficiently to run PBM games,
edit PBM magazines etc. If, despite this, there is a cogent argument
against a rise in prices, then by all means let's hear it and discuss it in
a gentlemanly fashion.

Colin.

_________________________________________________________________
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#3

Hey Corsairs-man,

I think you have issues. Which you are entitled to have.
Just that there are other lists for that.

I think everyone got your point. Its just that the point missed.
If Clint and Co. did a spin, we all wouldn't know it. Until the Feds raids
their offices years from now and a book is written about it. :slight_smile:
What I think happened was a PR snafu.

And you caught it! Yay!
For awhile you were a symbol of consumer rights advocacy.
but now it seems you are just dumping on us, man. so you got shafted before
, it happens.
It will be OK. Everything will be alright.

···

At 08:58 PM 4/12/2002, corsairs game 101 wrote:

I don't have a problem with a price increase. I don't have a problem with
differential pricing.

I have a problem with lies and spin.

This was presented as "We have to raise prices, but you can avoid it by
using this great tool that is going to help you."

Bull. The price increase was NOTHING but a way of forcing us to do their
jobs without them cutting their pay checks.

When this was pointed out, the response was something to the effect of, "But
our employees don't like doing the job you are paying them to do." Oh, cry
me a river.

Well, that spin didn't work, so next come all the posts about "What projects
would you like us to work on." Here is one. How about a project that
doesn't involve lieing about your motives.

Three years ago, the company I worked for announced a MAJOR improvement in
time off policy. When the new policy came down, instead of 25 days off
anyway I wanted to use them, I now got 10 vacation, 6 holiday, and unlimited
sick. However, if you take one sick day, it costs you your 100% billable
bonus ($600 over 3 months) and if you take more than 3 sick days in a row,
you need a doctor's note.

Wait, I'm going from 25 days off, to 16, and this is a MAJOR
improvement?!?!?! How stupid do they think I am?

When we pointed out that it was BULL that this was an improvement, the
response was "changing market conditions..... cost savings.....
redeployment of assets...." You know what? It pisses people off more to
tell them that "getting screwed is an improvement", then to just honestly
explain up front why they must get screwed.

MEPBM could learn from this. You mean I have to do your job, pay you the
same, and this is some kind of magic situation for me? I don't think so.

Thank You,
John Hanibal Smith

And B.A. agrees with me. He pitties the fool that thinks doing thier job
for them, or getting your arm twisted with increased fees, is a proper way
to be treated as a customer.

>From: Colin Forbes <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Prices and capitalism
>Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:47:39 +0100
>
>Hi,
> > MEPBM has contrived a way to cut their work load, without cutting their
> > paycheck. That pisses me off. Address the point, don't try to silence
> > me!!!!! It won't work!!!!
>
>Ultimately the point, or rather the reason behind the point, is that basic
>capitalism dictates that cutting your workload without cutting your pay is
>something that ALL companies and businessmem would be happy to do. This is
>a fact of life in the world we live in (like it or not).
>
>By all means express a view - customer reaction is an important part of the
>capitalist system - but eventually the time comes when customers have to
>decide to accept a rise in prices or not (i.e. keep buying the product or
>take their custom and money elsewhere). There is of course another
>capitalist pressure at work here, namely the fact that the work done by
>clint & Co is currently under-rewarded in financial terms. The skills
>involved would normally dictate a much higher price than is being
>discussed.
>
>The issue for me is not a basic increase in turn-fees, but the proposed
>differential pricing strategy. However I'm satisfied that this is something
>Clint & Co are addressing. Could someone who is opposed to a price increase
>(as opposed to differential pricing) explain why a business which offers a
>great product, alongside excellent service and commitment, should not seek
>to reward it's highly skilled employees at a rate more in line with what
>these people could earn elsewhere in the market? It's no good arguing that
>less skilled people would need less pay, because then the game wouldn't
>run. If PBM were a purely market-driven business, it wouldn't exist. There
>aren't enough players and we don't pay enough for turns. Happily there are
>a lot of people out there who enjoy gaming sufficiently to run PBM games,
>edit PBM magazines etc. If, despite this, there is a cogent argument
>against a rise in prices, then by all means let's hear it and discuss it in
>a gentlemanly fashion.
>
>Colin.
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

"Mr Smith" wrote ...

MEPBM could learn from this. You mean I have to do your job,
pay you the same, and this is some kind of magic situation
for me? I don't think so.

A view to which you are entitled. If I may say so though, you are in
danger of becoming like the man who cries "Abandon Ship" then stays
on board. This situation is, as I pointed out, a classic case of
market economics. Your part is to stay on board the ship or board one
of the waiting lifeboats which will take you to the safety of another
PBM game.

However by continuing to post on this list and, presumably by
continuing to play as the Corsairs in game 101 (or possibly as the
Smiths in game 666) you have me for one confused.

Colin.

#5

Back at my last company we used to get spin and plans and ideas that clearly wouldn't work out. Nothing so blatant as your holiday, I admit but the cumulative effect was not good on morale. That's one of the reasons I'm no longer working for them.

What we didn't get was direct responses from management about our problems, changes in plans because we didn't like something management proposed and management accepting low pay increases to keep the price increases below inflation. We've had all of that from MEPBM.

Just because you've had a bad experience with your company, don't take it out on others. If you don't like the way they've described the price increase/AutoMagic deal, doesn't that prove that they're not spin doctors. That makes it better surely.

If they had really wanted to sneak this deal in through the back door, they could have been really subtle and said "We are increasing prices to £4.50. Like it or lump it". Then 6 months later, they say "We've decided that those of you using AutoMagic/MEOW can have turns for just £4.00 because it's easier for us to input". Then they've got more money & we get a warm glow because they love us so much and are trying to make the games cheaper.

Instead, they've introduced the price increase & the discount at the same time and you are complaining because they didn't describe it well.

If you really dislike spin, surely you would look at the actions instead and ignore the words. These actions are:

Prices going up - no one likes it but the increase is hardly unreasonable

AutoMagic being issued - it was already there & I know some people who were using it without incentive so it must have some benefit. Rather than making us do their job for them, we still have to enter our orders once (or did you have some way of not entering orders at all, previously?). The main difference seems to be the validation of orders.

A discount being offered if we use Automagic - MEPBM save money by having a standard format which allows automatic input. They pass on the saving to us when they don't have to.

The price increase being held until everyone has potential access (MEOW rather than AutoMagic)- note, they are costing themselves money because of the way this increase came across.

Richard

P.s. We hardly need worry about B.A. over here. You would never get him to fly across the pond, Hannibal. We have enough problems with our own B.A. trying to do that.

P.p.s If you're Hannibal shouldn't you be playing Harad with their Mumakil, rather than Corsairs?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

AutoMagic being issued - it was already there & I know some people who were
using it without incentive so it must have some benefit. Rather than making
us do their job for them, we still have to enter our orders once (or did you
have some way of not entering orders at all, previously?). The main
difference seems to be the validation of orders.

    I'm one of the users.... In my 4th Age game, I used and will use in my
2950 game... It's very simple, and all economic plans that WE made to plan
our nation are in the automagic. Beside it it's an open program, then if do
you want to put more things in it, you can...
    Me and a friend translate all program to portuguese, make some adjusts
and are using to make my turns in Brazil. Only to inform, I play 13 nations
in Brazil, and with automagic I reduce about an hour the time that I spend
making orders... Of course, I'm fast with automagic because I know all order
numbers in my head, but me and my friend are putting the enter in two
formats, with number and with name (Mike, if we do this and don't increase a
lot the size, I can send it back to you...Of course, if you want...).

    Now, really... I don't understand why some people are some problematic
with turns price increase. It's need to continue the GOOD quality that
Harlequin offer to us. If you don't want to use automagic or other, you can
pay 4,50. But Harlequin let us an exit: use automagic... 8-))

                NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT GAMES... CAPITALISM IS DISCUSSED IN
GLOBAL SOCIAL FORUMS...

                                        hugs,

                                            Carlos

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Farrer" <richard@rfarrer.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Prices and capitalism