PRS redesign - Continued: Opponet Strength Adjustment

Clint has agreed to take a look at the Player Rating System I'm
working on, and if people seem to like it, add it to the current PRS.

I want to create a rating system that most players will pay attention
to, and try to score well at. It wouldn't be a listing of "best
players", as no system can measure that. It would simply be a
listing of the players that play a lot, in challenging games, and
still manage to win a lot.

Ifm looking at a system that uses 3 numbers that are multiplied
together to get final ranting/ranking.

Adjusted win %
Based on last 10 positions completed. Win = 1, Loss =0, Transfer = -
1, Hard Drop = -2. Divide this by games complete (1-10). Every
player is given 1 free win to avoid division by 0 and give new
players a rating even before theyfve gotten their first win. (Bunch
more rules about neutrals waiting too long to flip, very short games,
etc, but Ifm trying to keep this post brief... Well briefer that it
could be.)

Game Activity Adjuster (GAA) that counts each position played as 1
point per game season, reduced by 5% per season. This counts how
active a player you are. Those that play the most will score the
best.

Where n=0 is current game season and n=19 is 5 years ago.

GAA = ‡" PositionsPlayed(n) * (20-n/20)

[Side note. Brad Burnett suggested updating this every turn, but I
wasn't sure how I could get the data. I've realized it could use
the .xml files generated with the .pdf.files. Also, there is no
reason to lock it into a 5% seasonally decline except to encourage
active playing and give newer players a chance to move up
eventually. Comments encouraged.

I like the number being about 10 for 1 game at a time for 5 years and
about 25 for 3 games at a time for 2.5 years. It may actually be
easy to program "turns processed" per season/6 aged at 5% per season.]

To score well, play a lot and win a lot.

So far, so good, yes? No?

Here is where it gets ugly.

The third number I want is a measure of game difficulty. It would be
a combination of player experience and nation balance. I think that
playing 11 v. 14 (20% more players on one team) should count a lot
more than playing on a team that averages 4 years of experience
against a team that averages 5 years(20% more expereince).

I call this Opponent Strength Adjuster (OSA).

I want to update OSA every turn so that it reacts to nation
elimination and neutral shifts. Fortunately, this info is available
in the .xml files now sent out with turns. (Palantir is a GREAT
addition to the game. If you haven't checked it out, do so.)

My most recent attempt is to start everyone with an Opponent Strength
Adjustment of 1, and then modify it based on:
1) % difference in number of active positions
2) 1/10th the % difference in experience.

This amount of change would be per year normalized to 26 turns a
year. 30% fewer positions, for 26 turns should get you about 30%
increase in rating. 30% less experience, for 26 turns, would get you
about 3% increases in rating.

Problem is, that 50% less (half) is 100% more (double) for the other
side. 75% less would be 300% more. The % difference breaks down
then one side has 200-300% more experience than the other team. Even
using 10% of the difference could get 20-30% change in a year.
Thatfs as much as playing 14vs.11 for a year. An experienced player
could get on a team of new players, and see his OSA soar.
Thereafter, if he only played against teams with similar experience,
hefd never see his OSA fall.

Therefore, Ifll always use the "less than" number (dividing the
difference by the larger) and move up and down by that much.

The way to reduce a number by x% is to multiply the number by (1-
x%). The way to increase a number by x% is to multiply by 1+x%.
Since I want x% per 26 turns for nation difference, the formula is 1
+/- x%/26. For 1/10th experience difference the formula is 1+/-
x%/260. Actually compounding will result in slightly more or less
than x%, but too bad.

Therefore, the formula for OSA would be

···

+++++++++++++++++++++
Player Experience = GAA, but without the 5% per season aging

IF opponents are more experienced
Experience Adjustment = 1 + (sum of opponents experience - sum of
allies Experience)/ sum of opponents experience *260).

IF your allies are more experienced
Experience Adjustment = 1 - (sum of allies Experience - sum of
opponents experience) / sum of allies experience *260).

If opponents have more nations
Nations Adjustment = 1 + (# of enemy nations-# of ally nations)/ (#
of enemy nations*26).

If opponents have fewer nations
Nations Adjustment = 1 - (# of ally nations-# enemy of nations) / (#
of ally nations*26).

New OSA = Old OSA * Experience Adjustment * Nations Adjustment

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The idea is to punish experienced players for stomping newer players,
encourage experienced players to have newer players join their teams,
encourage neutrals to pick sides to balance a game, and account for
playing in unbalanced games.

Neutrals aren't counted except for FA games beyond GT12 where they
are considered a 3rd alliance and the number of enemy nations is
averaged before being compared to the number of friendly nations.

Examples:
Playing 26 turns (against players with similar experience) with a
14/11 split in your favor (opponents have about 20% fewer nations and
experience) would result in a 21% drop in your rating. OSA goes from
1 to 0.7893. This is a huge shift, but a 14 vs. 11 game shouldn't go
a full year.

Playing a 12 v 12 game, for 26 turns where your team averages 5+
years of playing 3 games at a time (60 XP) against a team that
averages 2 year of playing 2 games at a time (16XP) (they have 70%
less experience) results in a about 7% drop in rating over 26 turns.
OSA goes from 1 to 0.9292. This may seem like a small change, but it
is almost the same as the difference between winning 6 of your last
10 games instead of 7 of your last 10 games.

Flipping these examples around, an 11/14 split against (with equal
experience) and you hold on for a year, would increase your OSA from
1 to 1.2721.

Being on a team with 16XP average vs. a 60XP average (in a 12 vs. 12)
would increase your OSA from 1 to 1.076

So, my questions are:

1) Do we need opponent strength as a factor in a Player Rating System
or is win % and game activity enough for "bragging rights".

2) Is this getting too complicated? Is there a better way to account
for game difficulty?

3) Am I not adjusting enough for experience?

4) Since neutrals working for an alliance before flipping can't be
tracked, should we ignore nation and experience difference as
too "cheatable"? Another "cheatable" problem would be to create sock
puppet accounts (against the rules) to lower your team experience.
Would this be a problem?

5) Would you ignore EVERY Player Rating System no matter how well it
is designed?

6) Do you think the current system is good and not worth the effort
to try to improve it?

So, my questions are:

1) Do we need opponent strength as a factor in a Player Rating System
or is win % and game activity enough for "bragging rights".

**Opponent strength is included in the current one. From what I see above,
instead of your rating increasing a little bit when your team's scores
dominate, by yours you can win the game but actually have your score
decrease?

** I can understand the "game activity" piece a bit. 1) only active
players are listed and 2) your score degrades slightly over time. I am very
wary of "game activity" simply being a purchased rating. It isn't
necessarily the case with the current PRS.

2) Is this getting too complicated? Is there a better way to account
for game difficulty?

**Yes, I think it is. As you add level upon level of complexity, you'll
realize that the current PRS, EXCEPT the Istari rating, really takes much of
this into account.

3) Am I not adjusting enough for experience?

** Unsure the impact of your formulas.

4) Since neutrals working for an alliance before flipping can't be
tracked, should we ignore nation and experience difference as
too "cheatable"? Another "cheatable" problem would be to create sock
puppet accounts (against the rules) to lower your team experience.
Would this be a problem?

** I don't think cheating in this way would be a problem. Trying to
establish a "turn by turn" system creates complications that a simple "end
game" system avoids. The current "end game" system may not accurately
reflect what else went on during the game, but only for exceptions. Those
who start the game, are on or join a side, and finish the game, the system
works fine.

5) Would you ignore EVERY Player Rating System no matter how well it
is designed?

** I would derive amusement from EVERY PRS no matter how well it is
designed. None of them can conceivably change my approach to the game
barring monetary reward. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority
really don't care either way.

6) Do you think the current system is good and not worth the effort
to try to improve it?

** Good or Good Enough? The current system should evolve, like listing the
Vote categories by Votes per Game, or even as a percentage of Possible
Votes. Tweek the Nazgul rating to determine whether a 100% "winner" with
drops should be included at all, etc. Will the company replace all that
they've done out of hand? Not until a significant period of time has
elapsed proving the damage of the current PRS, something I don't think will
happen. Do we need to "add to" the current 6 listings?

Regards,

Brad Brunet
ps - Brunet..not Burnett... :wink:

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell" <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>

If you want a rating that most people will pay attention to, then you
want to keep it simple. This one seems too complex for what it purports
to accomplish. Something this complex is also bound to take a lot of
time to implement and track as well. I'm not sure it's worth the effort
just to show how experienced a player is, when a strict "number of games
finished" would be almost as useful and a whole lot easier, at least to
me.

Mike Mulka

1) Do we need opponent strength as a factor in a
Player Rating System
or is win % and game activity enough for "bragging
rights".

**Opponent strength is included in the current one.

The Valar rating of the current PRS is "mostly" (Games
Won - Games Lost) * 45 + ~10 for each neutral that
flipped enemy - ~10 for each enemy that flipped
friendly. It does adjust a little for opponent
strength (EnemyWin-EnemyLoss+AllyLoss-AllyWin)/3). It
accounts for nation split, but only at game end. It
rewards the same points whether you quit the turn the
neutrals split 1 v. 4 against, or holding out for 2
years against that split.

None of the other ranking account for opponent
strength.

From what I see above,
instead of your rating increasing a little bit when
your team's scores
dominate, by yours you can win the game but actually
have your score
decrease?

This is correct. Assuming you've completed 10
positions, then it is possible to win a game without
improving your win % if the position falling off the
last 109 is also a win. Also, if you're playing just
as many games as you have been for the last 5 years,
your GAA would not increase by continuing to play.
That means that playing in a game against weaker
opponents could lower your score.

One of the "musts" of any PRS is that is must give
newer players a chance to eventually moving up. If we
just let your score keep going up and up with every
win, then there is no way a newer player can every
catch up. It isn't intended to be a listing of most
experienced players, players that have been around the
longest, or even those that have the highest winning
%.

It is intended to be a listing of the players that
play a lot of "challenging" games and win a lot.

So, if you're playing against some newbies, and the
game lasts a long time, or you have a significant
nation advantage and the game lasts a long time,
you're not playing challenging games, and your rating
will drop.

** I can understand the "game activity" piece a
bit. 1) only active
players are listed and 2) your score degrades
slightly over time. I am very
wary of "game activity" simply being a purchased
rating. It isn't
necessarily the case with the current PRS.

The current PRS moves you back toward "neutral" 1500
by 2% of the distance away from 1500, per month. That
is about 24% per year. GAA is 20% per year.

Again, this is another factor keeping this from being
a listing of the players that have been around the
longest.

Both my proposed system and the current PRS are, in a
way, purchasing points since they both reward the most
active players.

In fact, I see the XP rating of the PRS to be more of
a "buying points" system since you gain points whether
you win or lose, whether it is a tough game or easy
game. In fact, old timers playing on teams with other
old timers on their team, stomping newbies, are likely
to gain the most.

2) Is this getting too complicated? Is there a
better way to account
for game difficulty?

**Yes, I think it is. As you add level upon level
of complexity, you'll
realize that the current PRS, EXCEPT the Istari
rating, really takes much of
this into account.

I still don't think so. I find the current system to
be more complex, while providing less accurate
measures of opponent strength, win %, and experience.

3) Am I not adjusting enough for experience?

** Unsure the impact of your formulas.

Having x% less experience than the enemy increases
your rating by 1/10th x% over a year. Opponents
haveing x% less experience decreases your rating
1/10th x% per year.

** I don't think cheating in this way would be a
problem. Trying to
establish a "turn by turn" system creates
complications that a simple "end
game" system avoids. The current "end game" system
may not accurately
reflect what else went on during the game, but only
for exceptions. Those
who start the game, are on or join a side, and
finish the game, the system
works fine.

It is these "exceptions" that I don't want to
encourage.

What complications do you see from a turn-by-turn
capturing of nation ratio?

5) Would you ignore EVERY Player Rating System no
matter how well it
is designed?

** I would derive amusement from EVERY PRS no matter
how well it is
designed. None of them can conceivably change my
approach to the game
barring monetary reward. I would hazard a guess
that the vast majority
really don't care either way.

While I agree with you to a point, I do think there
are at least 10-20% of players that will have their
play affected. That puts the number between 2 and 5
players a game..... Seems what I remember from the
GSI days.

Especially newer players that happen on a rule book
that indicates inter-team conflict was intentionally
designed into the game.

I do think that a player rating system that increased
your rating fairly significantly for playing in a game
with 13 nations v 12 nations may encourage some very
expereinced players to join games that are
intentioanlly stacked against them. I think that a
player rating system that rewards "holding on" even
when you lose a position early, may encourage people
from dropping at the first sign of trouble.

I agree that most payers won't have their play
negativly affected by a poorly designed system.
However, I hope that a significant number of players
CAN have their play affected for the better by a very
well designed player rating system.

6) Do you think the current system is good and not
worth the effort
to try to improve it?

** Good or Good Enough? The current system should
evolve, like listing the
Vote categories by Votes per Game, or even as a
percentage of Possible
Votes. Tweek the Nazgul rating to determine whether
a 100% "winner" with
drops should be included at all, etc. Will the
company replace all that
they've done out of hand? Not until a significant
period of time has
elapsed proving the damage of the current PRS,
something I don't think will
happen. Do we need to "add to" the current 6
listings?

In my opinion, I think they should scrap the current
system regardless of how much work went into it, IF a
better system can be developed.

If I have to settle for "adding" an additional option,
then seeing if people like it better than the current
ratings, then I'm willing to put in the effort to
develop that additional option.

How can people make a choice between A and B if A
exists but B does not?

Darrell

···

--- Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

That's simply not the case, and is potentially part of the apparent
communication problem.

Valar rankings are calculated based on the strengths of the players of both
sides. The winners get + and the losers get -. This is in contradiction to
the above statements. Maia rankings take the opposition into account also.
Tougher games are worth more points for the "underdog" winner. If the
underdog's lose, the higher ranked winners get less.

Re-Read the current PRS, as they were originated over a year ago (or so).
Valar and Maia don't seem to offer that much in contradiction to your
desires. Istari is based on VP's.

Brad Brunet

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Shimel" <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>

In fact, I see the XP rating of the PRS to be more of
a "buying points" system since you gain points whether
you win or lose, whether it is a tough game or easy
game. In fact, old timers playing on teams with other
old timers on their team, stomping newbies, are likely
to gain the most.

From: "Darrell Shimel" <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>

> In fact, I see the XP rating of the PRS to be more
of
> a "buying points" system since you gain points
whether
> you win or lose, whether it is a tough game or
easy
> game. In fact, old timers playing on teams with
other
> old timers on their team, stomping newbies, are
likely
> to gain the most.

That's simply not the case, and is potentially part
of the apparent
communication problem.

The XP rating I was referring to is Maia. You get
points win or lose.

TmAv = Your team�s average rating at game end (worked
out in the same manner as the Valar ratings)
Score = Score for the game where S = 4 Win, = 3 Draw,
= 2 Loss
EndTurn = Generic turn number the game Ended

RatNew = RatOrig + (TmAv/RatOrig) x Score x
EndTurn

I see this to be FAR more "buying points" than the GAA
which gets multiplied by win % and opponent strength.

Valar rankings are calculated based on the strengths
of the players of both
sides. The winners get + and the losers get -.

But for the Valar rating, someone that is 5 for 5 is
treated the same as someone in their first game ever.
I do not see how someone with a lot of expereice, that
plays challenging games, and wins half, can be
considered the same Opponent as someone in their first
game.

This is in contradiction to
the above statements. Maia rankings take the
opposition into account also.
Tougher games are worth more points for the
"underdog" winner.

I'll reread...... Nope. No opposition strength. Just
compares your Valar rating to the team average, length
of game, and win counts twice as much as a loss.

If the
underdog's lose, the higher ranked winners get less.

For Valar, but not Mayar. For each extra nation you
have, you get ~10 less points for the win. Fewer
nations are ~10 each. Then there is the difference in
win to loss ratio of allies and enemies divided by 3.

Re-Read the current PRS, as they were originated
over a year ago (or so).
Valar and Maia don't seem to offer that much in
contradiction to your
desires. Istari is based on VP's.

Brad Brunet

I still disagree greatly.

The Valar rating rewards about 45 points for a win,
and takes away about45 points for a loss, so no matter
how many games you play, if you have a 50-50 win rate,
you'll have a rating about the same as a player in
their first game. Because of this problem, stomping a
team of newbies will count about as much as stomping
an expereinced team that is about 50-50 win/loss.

The Maia rating seems to be little more than buying
points to me. Sure, new players will go up faster if
they play on teams with expereinced players and win a
lot, but really, there is little chance for a newbie
to ever catch up to an expereinced player.

One of your previous complaints was that your rating
could drop even if you win. While that is true, the
current system provides this with the Istari rating.
If the typical NG ends with 1000, and I happen to get
hit hard by CL assassins the turn before the game ends
and end with 400 points, my Istari rating would drop
by 600 despite being on the winning side.

I think positions played over the last 5 years is a
much better measure of opponent strength than
wins-losses(Valar). I think a rating that goes up win
or loss(Maia), is not as good as a measure based on
both number of turns processed and win %.

Darrell Shimel

···

--- Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

Correction!!
--- Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But for the Valar rating, someone that is 5 for 5 is
treated the same as someone in their first game
ever.

Meant some that is 5 for 10 is treated the same as
someone in their first game ever.

Darrell Shimel

···

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com