Query about mailing lists.

greetings.

I can understand a side getting a contact list of all their allies, and not
a list of all players in a game (such a list like that would show the other
side). But what's the logic of not suppling the neutral details for the
free/DS sides ?

The free and DS should talk to the neutrals, so supplying the neutral
contact details is going to help contact players. For email players this
mailing list allows the neutrals to be contacted (so we just have to rely on
the neutrals talking first), but I would have a hard time contacting a
neutral who doesn't have access to the net.

I would have to email clint a message, have him print it out (free of charge
?), and include the printed message on the neutral's smail turn. And how
would clint enforce the old 3x5 size limit of player messages that I grew up
with ?. I assume he can't, so I could easily type up a few pages of waffle
for clint to print out and send on to the smailer every turn.

This will cause a few things to occur

a) all sides find out who is playing what neutral early on. And we don't
have to wait for the neutrals to contact us. If a neutral doesn't want to
talk to a certain side, they can always decline to talk, or make
unreasonable demands.

b) knowing who is playing a neutral might help knowing who to ask to join
your side (I know of same players that I would rather have on my side than
others).

c) when a neutral joins a side, his address gets taken off the other side
(since he isn't neutral any more). Since the current allies table is
flexible, this shouldn't be that hard to program. A neutral might not want
his change to be noticed, but nation messages generally pick up a change
(that and the other side seeing all those neutral icons changing).

The hard part (IMO) would be to have a table for current allies, and below
that a table for neutrals.

Since I wasn't around when the current allies table was first created, I'm
curious in the logic of why neutrals were not included.

thanks
m

p.s still undecided on the question "Should a neutral get the mailing list
of both ds and free sides" . Physically I don't think its possible (due to
page limits on the account balance sheet that is sent out). Its also easy
info to get (they can ask any of the 10 players on each side).

But if a neutral gets this info, they can supply it to the other side (which
defeats the purpose of not supplying free info to the DS and vica-versa).

So I would loudly say 'no' to the question. But its seems unfair to give the
info to the DS and free which we are denying the neutrals.

pps I'm in a thinking mood after seeing tactically brilliant moves by
several free in G34 last turn :frowning:

Michael Peters wrote:

Since I wasn't around when the current allies table was first created, I'm
curious in the logic of why neutrals were not included.

When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with the
set up. I think Allsorts did likewise, but they apparently told Clint that
they didn't and the rest is history... :slight_smile: They also told Clint a lot of
things which contradicted what they told players... which resulted in a
barrage of emails twixt myself and our esteemed GM when I ran afoul of the
"rules". I still think Clint thinks I was winding him up.

Somewhere in a great pile of paper I have proofs.

Gavin

Tradition mostly, but it's a good one. In the olden days when we played
by post (one understands that a few still do... no... don't laugh) you
only got the contact through "diplos", scrappy bits of beer mat usually.

That meant neutral's were "out of the team" at the start, as it should
be, and you only got to commence negotiations after the war had started.
The diplos also told you, and the neutrals, who was keen to communicate,
and who couldn't be bothered ("too busy").

There's also good strategic reasons why a Neutral might want to stay
silent at the start of a game. If a Neutral does not want his contact
details to be known, then he should be allowed to maintain his
anonymity.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Michael Peters <MPeters@nskomatsu.com.au> wrote

I can understand a side getting a contact list of all their allies, and not
a list of all players in a game (such a list like that would show the other
side). But what's the logic of not suppling the neutral details for the
free/DS sides ?

When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with the
set up.

Your memory is different to mine. Any other dinosaurs care to comment?

I think Allsorts did likewise,

I don't think so.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote

Hi,

When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with
the set up.

Um, no they didnt, sorry! What they did do however was send the neutrals
a list of all the other neutrals. This tended to mean that both sides
would have a list of neutral players within a turn or two.

Colin.

Nor as far as we know did they. They created the software so that the
information does not go out. I am not sure what the other licensees do
here?

Clint

>When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with

the

···

>set up.
Your memory is different to mine. Any other dinosaurs care to comment?

> I think Allsorts did likewise,
I don't think so.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley

Ah that is probably where the confusion lies. Shame we were told different
in our "extensive" tuition period.

:slight_smile:

Clint

···

Hi,
> When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with
> the set up.

Um, no they didnt, sorry! What they did do however was send the neutrals
a list of all the other neutrals. This tended to mean that both sides
would have a list of neutral players within a turn or two.

Colin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
http://click.egroups.com/1/5108/9//430399//961407314/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

Hi,
Thinking about this further, I seem to recall that whilst GAd always
sent out a list of neutral nations to all neutrals (never to any of the
two teams), Allsorts discontinued this practice some while before
Harlequin took over. When I asked about this they claimed that thy had
been instructed by GSI to do this.

Personally I quite liked the system as it tended to bring the neutrals
into the game earlier on.

Colin.

I can ask GSI and see what they say... :slight_smile:

Clint

···

****************************************************
                  Harlequin Games

       mailto: pbm@harlequingames.com
            www.harlequingames.com
       Middle Earth - Legends- Serim Ral
    CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
            Battle of the Planets - Exile
****************************************************
340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "ColinForbes" <mearth@suilven.demon.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: 19 June 2000 15:01
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Query about mailing lists.

Hi,
Thinking about this further, I seem to recall that whilst GAd always
sent out a list of neutral nations to all neutrals (never to any of the
two teams), Allsorts discontinued this practice some while before
Harlequin took over. When I asked about this they claimed that thy had
been instructed by GSI to do this.

Personally I quite liked the system as it tended to bring the neutrals
into the game earlier on.

Colin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy Long Distance with your GROUP and SAVE!!!
http://click.egroups.com/1/4123/9//430399//961429229/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

greetings.

I can understand a side getting a contact list of all their allies, and

not

a list of all players in a game (such a list like that would show the

other

side). But what's the logic of not suppling the neutral details for the
free/DS sides ?

The free and DS should talk to the neutrals, so supplying the neutral
contact details is going to help contact players. For email players this
mailing list allows the neutrals to be contacted (so we just have to rely

on

the neutrals talking first), but I would have a hard time contacting a
neutral who doesn't have access to the net.

I would have to email clint a message, have him print it out (free of

charge

?), and include the printed message on the neutral's smail turn. And how
would clint enforce the old 3x5 size limit of player messages that I grew

up

with ?. I assume he can't, so I could easily type up a few pages of waffle
for clint to print out and send on to the smailer every turn.

This will cause a few things to occur

a) all sides find out who is playing what neutral early on. And we don't
have to wait for the neutrals to contact us. If a neutral doesn't want to
talk to a certain side, they can always decline to talk, or make
unreasonable demands.

b) knowing who is playing a neutral might help knowing who to ask to join
your side (I know of same players that I would rather have on my side than
others).

c) when a neutral joins a side, his address gets taken off the other side
(since he isn't neutral any more). Since the current allies table is
flexible, this shouldn't be that hard to program. A neutral might not want
his change to be noticed, but nation messages generally pick up a change
(that and the other side seeing all those neutral icons changing).

The hard part (IMO) would be to have a table for current allies, and below
that a table for neutrals.

Since I wasn't around when the current allies table was first created, I'm
curious in the logic of why neutrals were not included.

thanks
m

p.s still undecided on the question "Should a neutral get the mailing list
of both ds and free sides" . Physically I don't think its possible (due to
page limits on the account balance sheet that is sent out). Its also easy
info to get (they can ask any of the 10 players on each side).

But if a neutral gets this info, they can supply it to the other side

(which

defeats the purpose of not supplying free info to the DS and vica-versa).

So I would loudly say 'no' to the question. But its seems unfair to give

the

info to the DS and free which we are denying the neutrals.

RD: I agree, the list of neutrals should be circulated to everybody.
Reason? In Middle-earth, everybody knew who the 'neutrals' were. In game
terms it would make life easier for everybody.

Come to that, everybody in ME also knew who their enemies were, so why not
have a completely 'open' game and circulate all addresses to everybody? ME
29 already has that and we haven't even played turn 1 yet!

In some more 'sophisticated' games, a player can release his address to whom
he pleases, and withold it from others. This would be the ideal solution.
Altho, the DS or FP player who witheld his address from his team-mates would
soon incur their wrath, adding an unpredictable element to the game!

Regards,

Richard.

>When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with

the

>set up.
Your memory is different to mine. Any other dinosaurs care to comment?

> I think Allsorts did likewise,
I don't think so.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

My memory (which ain't what it used to be after centuries of ME warfare) is
that both GAD and Allsorts circulated lists of neutral addresses. It's
never been the same since Jurassic Park.

A Velociraptor

···

Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote

Hi,

> When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with
> the set up.

Um, no they didnt, sorry! What they did do however was send the neutrals
a list of all the other neutrals. This tended to mean that both sides
would have a list of neutral players within a turn or two.

Colin.

RD: Colin has it right. I retract anything else I wrote on this subject.
But, sending the neutrals a list of all the other neutrals meant that each
team had to persuade only one neutral to send them a list of all the
neutrals. Effectively this meant that any competent diplomat on either side
very quickly learned all the neutrals'details.

Regards,

Richard.

RD: I agree, the list of neutrals should be circulated to everybody.
Reason? In Middle-earth, everybody knew who the 'neutrals' were. In game
terms it would make life easier for everybody.

Not the player behind the throne - which is part of the reason that players
play the Neutrals.

Come to that, everybody in ME also knew who their enemies were, so why not
have a completely 'open' game and circulate all addresses to everybody?

ME

29 already has that and we haven't even played turn 1 yet!

Yes - tha was different - also the software isn't set up and we haven't got
the spare few k to get it corrected... :slight_smile: You might not know it but
setting up even a normal game is a real lot of work and headache for us GMs.

> Um, no they didnt, sorry! What they did do however was send the neutrals
> a list of all the other neutrals. This tended to mean that both sides
> would have a list of neutral players within a turn or two.
>
> Colin.

RD: Colin has it right. I retract anything else I wrote on this subject.
But, sending the neutrals a list of all the other neutrals meant that each
team had to persuade only one neutral to send them a list of all the
neutrals. Effectively this meant that any competent diplomat on either

side

very quickly learned all the neutrals'details.

My slant on it is that the Neutrals are individuals (we don't allow team
mates to join for example without a warning. [We don't always know who is
friends with whom of course]) and hence should not be any more advantaged or
disadvantaged at the beginning of the game than the FP/DS team. We have a
FA game just out with 4 teams, FP, DS, True Neutral and Floating Neutral do
show the difference - i wonder how it will go.

i've no recollection of either GAD or Allsorts supplying the neutral
addresses at game start, it was always a case of send an in game diplo and
hope they get back to you.

Alan

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Query about mailing lists.

Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote
>When GAD ran the game, neutrals' details were sent to all players with

the

>set up.
Your memory is different to mine. Any other dinosaurs care to comment?

> I think Allsorts did likewise,
I don't think so.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

Alan Gourlay wrote:

i've no recollection of either GAD or Allsorts supplying the neutral
addresses at game start, it was always a case of send an in game diplo and
hope they get back to you.

I wonder if it depended on which GM was running the set up...

Mind you, Simon seems to have told Clint quite a few whoppers so maybe he
flipped a coin at the beginning of each game to see if neutrals would be
made public.

Gavin

I can ask GSI and see what they say... :slight_smile:

Clint

From: "ColinForbes" <mearth@suilven.demon.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: 19 June 2000 15:01
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Query about mailing lists.

> Hi,
> Thinking about this further, I seem to recall that whilst GAd always
> sent out a list of neutral nations to all neutrals (never to any of the
> two teams), Allsorts discontinued this practice some while before
> Harlequin took over. When I asked about this they claimed that thy had
> been instructed by GSI to do this.
>
> Personally I quite liked the system as it tended to bring the neutrals
> into the game earlier on.
>
> Colin.
>

RD: FAO CLINT: yes, please do ask GSI about this. You've allowed lots of
other changes to suit players: pre-aligned neutrals, Mike Sankey's
neutral-less variant game, my WotR variant. It seems quite unreasonable (if
not illegal?) for GSI to insist that you cannot disclose neutrals' details
to each other.

I agree with Colin, not only does such a list help bring the neutrals into
the game earlier, the lack of such a list will encourage new or half-hearted
players to drop.

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----

I don't generally put new players into the Neutrals unless they really want
to. Anyone Neutrals can be contacted a lot more than normal team players.
Anyone else interested in this?

> I can ask GSI and see what they say... :slight_smile:
>
> Clint

> From: "ColinForbes" <mearth@suilven.demon.co.uk>
> To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
> Sent: 19 June 2000 15:01
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Query about mailing lists.
>
> > Hi,
> > Thinking about this further, I seem to recall that whilst GAd always
> > sent out a list of neutral nations to all neutrals (never to any of

the

> > two teams), Allsorts discontinued this practice some while before
> > Harlequin took over. When I asked about this they claimed that thy had
> > been instructed by GSI to do this.
> >
> > Personally I quite liked the system as it tended to bring the neutrals
> > into the game earlier on.
> >
> > Colin.
> >
RD: FAO CLINT: yes, please do ask GSI about this. You've allowed lots of
other changes to suit players: pre-aligned neutrals, Mike Sankey's
neutral-less variant game, my WotR variant. It seems quite unreasonable

(if

not illegal?) for GSI to insist that you cannot disclose neutrals' details
to each other.

I agree with Colin, not only does such a list help bring the neutrals

into

the game earlier, the lack of such a list will encourage new or

half-hearted

···

> ----- Original Message -----
players to drop.

Richard.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
仲間とはじめる、仲間を見つける eグループ
「グループメールしませんか?」
サークル・同窓会・同僚・ビジネス・家族でどうぞ!
http://www.egroups.co.jp/info/features.html
http://click.egroups.com/1/3411/11//430399//961605997/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm