Questions about new mapping program

I haven't volunteered for the mapping playtest, as I'm fairly well involved in the MEOW one. However I follow the news with interest. Mike Sankey told me all about the testing at the Face To Face and Scott Moyes has sent me a copy of the gif map it generates. A couple of questions arise:

1) If, as I understand, the data is collated automatically for the whole allegiance when the turn is processed, how will we cope with "effectively aligned neutrals"? It's very common for neutrals to be effectively aligned, and sharing all their data with a team, for many, many turns before making the official declaration. Thier information would usually be integrated into the team's map. Will it be possible to import the map data for individual nations on top of the collated data which MEPBM Games will send out?

2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

1) If, as I understand, the data is collated automatically for the whole
allegiance when the turn is processed, how will we cope with "effectively
aligned neutrals"?

They can send you their XML file and you add that to the database. Works fine. The Mapper creates an .ini and a .dat file - if anyone else has the program they can send those two files onto team-mates (aligned or otherwise). As with sharing pdfs sharing XML will probably be a part of the game if the Mapper takes off. For those using Yahoo some sterling work by ace investigators Brad, Scott and Dan have got a system that is easy to get the XMl saved properly as well.

2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex
Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a
glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?

*** Maybe - it's one of the things we'll look at. If someone can send me the Maetzing program then I can send it to Mark and he can compare it. Best if this is one of the players on the playtest so that we don't get lost with too many confusing requests.

Clint

Don't quite follow that reasoning, but if nobody on the playtest sends you a copy get back to me, and I will. You'll need a copy of a longish game file as well to see how the pop history feature at its best.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 14:46 24/06/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

>2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex
>Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a
>glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?

*** Maybe - it's one of the things we'll look at. If someone can send me
the Maetzing program then I can send it to Mark and he can compare
it. Best if this is one of the players on the playtest so that we don't
get lost with too many confusing requests.

Done.

b

ps My Two Cents (American): There are arguments both for and against
the mapping program. It does "reward laziness" in a sense. But if we
want to stay true to that sense in other ways, we might find ourselves
moving back towards an agri-centric way of living. (That is, an economic
and social structure built around the fact that most of the population
is involved in the growing, harvesting, distribution, or preparation of
food - aka, how most humans lived during most of recorded history).
This might be a viable alternative for those who wish to "get back to
the land" in search of a more "real" existence. Then again, Pol Pot
attempted something along those lines, and it had its price (not the
least of which was murder on a scale that can only be labeled genocidal)
... :):):slight_smile:

All in all, using machines to do essentially mundane work (especially
that which is time-consuming) is the hallmark of "progress" in the
modern sense. It has several major benefits. Yes, it allows people to
do what they do best (well, some people ...), in the sense of "freeing
us" to "be creative." It also allows for an absoutely essential element
to the formation of society as we now know it - _specialization_.

Yes, "leveraging" human ability through machines/processes levels the
playing field, and the development, distribution and use of the mapping
program does seem (I won't _commit_ 'til I've seen and used it) to be an
extension of this theme within MEPBM. Personally, I've been able to
enjoy the advantage of well-processed information by "specializing" in
forming (and being a part of) teams with members have been committed to
the "banality" of data collection and distribution, so that the whole
team could focus on _analysis_ of that information. Any team we'd play
would have to do the same to have a chance against us. Now, any team
that cares to will be able to do so without too much effort (an
exponentially smaller amount of work).

OTOH, the teams I play with will have that much more time and energy to
engage in analysis and creative strategic and tactical thought. And to
"specialize." Also, I think it is important to note that experience
will still play a _huge_ role in "team quality." Also, and this is
perhaps an even more impactful point, I am sure that there will be ways
to use "the mapping program" for information analysis beyond that which
the proposed program is intended to directly provide. In fact, I am
_certain_ there are useful information gathering/distribution/analysis
processes, which allready exist, that the program will _not_ be able to
fully "do" for players and teams. The program may facilitate these, but
(the point here is that) the imaginative use of this new tool will help
the clever teams to mine further information, and the _use_ of the tool
will still remain a significant variable, subject to effort, creativity,
and commitment.

In short: Would it be in my best interests for the mapping program not
to be developed and made available? Almost certainly. Do I see it as a
significant "alteration" to the "equilibrium" currently in effect?
Absolutely. And we have no choice in the matter (it seems) -
notwithstanding the fact that Clint Et. Al. very specifically,
repeatedly, _asked_us_as_a_community_ whether we would be in favor of an
endeavor to create the very program now being questioned. My
recollection is that there was a resounding "yes" response to their
inquiries. In a way, this is perhaps yet another (sad) example of
people expressing their support of some _potential_ improvement, without
thinking about the true impact it might have. Then, when the
"improvement" is developed and implemented, and the _real_ ramifications
are at hand, there is great furor over the unforseen (if not
unforseeable) consequences.

Wait a sec. On second thought, all of the above sounds completely off.
It clearly is flawed and has no validity. Further, no examples of the
dynamics I've suggsted above can be found anywhere in other arenas. ...
... ... Not so much!!!!!!!!

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

1) If, as I understand, the data is collated automatically for the whole
allegiance when the turn is processed, how will we cope with "effectively
aligned neutrals"?
   
They can send you their XML file and you add that to the database. Works
fine. The Mapper creates an .ini and a .dat file - if anyone else has the
program they can send those two files onto team-mates (aligned or
otherwise). As with sharing pdfs sharing XML will probably be a part of
the game if the Mapper takes off. For those using Yahoo some sterling
work by ace investigators Brad, Scott and Dan have got a system that is
easy to get the XMl saved properly as well.

2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex
Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a
glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?
   
*** Maybe - it's one of the things we'll look at. If someone can send me
the Maetzing program then I can send it to Mark and he can compare
it. Best if this is one of the players on the playtest so that we don't
get lost with too many confusing requests.

Clint

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Both sides in the FtF had access to the mapping program. Then it was just a matter of who did the most with it. I think everyone there would admit that one side co-ordinated better and won because of it (and some luck, it's true).

The only difference the mappng program will make is that the team who doesn't have the time to scour the pdfs for the information (certainly true when you play a 90 minute turn around) is no longer at a disadvantage. Hats off to those people who do have time to check everything (and I've won several games because of them) . Us mere mortals who are forced into less interesting pursuits look forward to the mapping program being widely released. I know that the dedicated players will still win because they will spend the time to make the best use of the information they get.

Richard

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Benjamin Shushan
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Questions about new mapping program

  Done.

  b

  ps My Two Cents (American): There are arguments both for and against
  the mapping program. It does "reward laziness" in a sense. But if we
  want to stay true to that sense in other ways, we might find ourselves
  moving back towards an agri-centric way of living. (That is, an economic
  and social structure built around the fact that most of the population
  is involved in the growing, harvesting, distribution, or preparation of
  food - aka, how most humans lived during most of recorded history).
  This might be a viable alternative for those who wish to "get back to
  the land" in search of a more "real" existence. Then again, Pol Pot
  attempted something along those lines, and it had its price (not the
  least of which was murder on a scale that can only be labeled genocidal)
  ... :):):slight_smile:

  All in all, using machines to do essentially mundane work (especially
  that which is time-consuming) is the hallmark of "progress" in the
  modern sense. It has several major benefits. Yes, it allows people to
  do what they do best (well, some people ...), in the sense of "freeing
  us" to "be creative." It also allows for an absoutely essential element
  to the formation of society as we now know it - _specialization_.

  Yes, "leveraging" human ability through machines/processes levels the
  playing field, and the development, distribution and use of the mapping
  program does seem (I won't _commit_ 'til I've seen and used it) to be an
  extension of this theme within MEPBM. Personally, I've been able to
  enjoy the advantage of well-processed information by "specializing" in
  forming (and being a part of) teams with members have been committed to
  the "banality" of data collection and distribution, so that the whole
  team could focus on _analysis_ of that information. Any team we'd play
  would have to do the same to have a chance against us. Now, any team
  that cares to will be able to do so without too much effort (an
  exponentially smaller amount of work).

  OTOH, the teams I play with will have that much more time and energy to
  engage in analysis and creative strategic and tactical thought. And to
  "specialize." Also, I think it is important to note that experience
  will still play a _huge_ role in "team quality." Also, and this is
  perhaps an even more impactful point, I am sure that there will be ways
  to use "the mapping program" for information analysis beyond that which
  the proposed program is intended to directly provide. In fact, I am
  _certain_ there are useful information gathering/distribution/analysis
  processes, which allready exist, that the program will _not_ be able to
  fully "do" for players and teams. The program may facilitate these, but
  (the point here is that) the imaginative use of this new tool will help
  the clever teams to mine further information, and the _use_ of the tool
  will still remain a significant variable, subject to effort, creativity,
  and commitment.

  In short: Would it be in my best interests for the mapping program not
  to be developed and made available? Almost certainly. Do I see it as a
  significant "alteration" to the "equilibrium" currently in effect?
  Absolutely. And we have no choice in the matter (it seems) -
  notwithstanding the fact that Clint Et. Al. very specifically,
  repeatedly, _asked_us_as_a_community_ whether we would be in favor of an
  endeavor to create the very program now being questioned. My
  recollection is that there was a resounding "yes" response to their
  inquiries. In a way, this is perhaps yet another (sad) example of
  people expressing their support of some _potential_ improvement, without
  thinking about the true impact it might have. Then, when the
  "improvement" is developed and implemented, and the _real_ ramifications
  are at hand, there is great furor over the unforseen (if not
  unforseeable) consequences.

  Wait a sec. On second thought, all of the above sounds completely off.
  It clearly is flawed and has no validity. Further, no examples of the
  dynamics I've suggsted above can be found anywhere in other arenas. ...
  ... ... Not so much!!!!!!!!

  Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

  >>1) If, as I understand, the data is collated automatically for the whole
  >>allegiance when the turn is processed, how will we cope with "effectively
  >>aligned neutrals"?
  >>
  >>
  >
  >They can send you their XML file and you add that to the database. Works
  >fine. The Mapper creates an .ini and a .dat file - if anyone else has the
  >program they can send those two files onto team-mates (aligned or
  >otherwise). As with sharing pdfs sharing XML will probably be a part of
  >the game if the Mapper takes off. For those using Yahoo some sterling
  >work by ace investigators Brad, Scott and Dan have got a system that is
  >easy to get the XMl saved properly as well.
  >
  >
  >
  >>2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex
  >>Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a
  >>glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?
  >>
  >>
  >
  >*** Maybe - it's one of the things we'll look at. If someone can send me
  >the Maetzing program then I can send it to Mark and he can compare
  >it. Best if this is one of the players on the playtest so that we don't
  >get lost with too many confusing requests.
  >
  >Clint
  >
  >
  >
  >Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  >To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  >Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  >
  >
  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
       
  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've got the program now thanks and we'll compare and contrast and see what we can do here.

Clint

···

At 16:14 24/06/03, you wrote:

At 14:46 24/06/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
> >2) Will I be able to get the population centre history, as I can in Alex
> >Maetzing's program, where I can click on a pop on the map and see at a
> >glance how many times it has changed hands, to whom, and on which turns?
>
>*** Maybe - it's one of the things we'll look at. If someone can send me
>the Maetzing program then I can send it to Mark and he can compare
>it. Best if this is one of the players on the playtest so that we don't
>get lost with too many confusing requests.

Don't quite follow that reasoning, but if nobody on the playtest sends you
a copy get back to me, and I will. You'll need a copy of a longish game
file as well to see how the pop history feature at its best.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

****************************************************************
                    Middle Earth Games
Mailto: me@middleearthgames.com
Website: www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
US: PO Box 280, Medford, Oregon OR97501-0019 USA

Phone Times: 10am-6.30pm UK Time (BST);5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main is engaged)
(Dial 011 44 2920 913359 if US)
UK Fax: 029 2062 5532 24 hours
US Fax: 1-503-296-2325 (preferred)
US Phone: 541 840 4669 10-5pm PST Weekdays
US alternate Fax: 801 650 8073 Fax 24hrs
****************************************************************