Ratings?...to Brad, Darren, Laurence

[corsairs_game_101]

What I meant was that it might be better to have a pause for Clint to
come up with some sort of overview on the current position.

WRONG!!!!! The best is for those that think this whole idea is really bad, to keep stating their opinion. Last thing we need is for Clint to begin to think that there isn't much opposition.

The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a lead airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is still being used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw us without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many as possible know we're being screwed.

Rankings is the same thing. He can't force a system on the players that don't want it, without us making sure as many players as possible know it wasn't wanted.

We will not shut up and go away. It is a bad idea, and if imposed on us, I for one, will not lot it go without loud opposition.

Sometimes its better to look up from the immediate job in hand and get the bigger picture.

Here is a big picture. Bad Idea and drop it. Say "we listened to the players" and gave them what they wanted. The PR will be much better than, we decided to impose an unwanted system, but we let you pick your torture device.

Yet again if you feel I was in any way slating anyone I apologise profusely but wouldn't it have been more polite to have asked what my reasons for saying such things?

Your reasons seemed quite clear. You wanted those opposed to a ranking system to shut up and go away.

Then I would have realised my error and explained my points.

Your point is? We should shut up while Clint decides what system to impose. I think not. I think you should spend your effort figuring out why the idea is so bad, instead of trying to silence those that have already figured it out.

Its Clint thats gonna implement the ideas why not let him be the one to choose the best(and probably most workable) and we can go from >there.

See, this is just one more "shut up and go away". NO! I won't shut up and go away. I hope the system is not going to be imposed. I don't want to shut up while the torture device is chosen. I want to stop the system before it is implimented.

Quit trying to shut people up. Address the points. Any ranking system will have flaws. "Cunning" players will be able to exploit the flaws to increase their rankings. It will be not fun to be in a game with a player that is simply in it to exploit flaws in the ranking system. It will be un-neato to have a sucky player shoved in your face as one of the best players. Therefore, any ranking system will be bad.

Now, explain to me where my reasoning is flawed instead of telling me to shut up and go away.

Apologetically

Don't apologize, just stop doing it.

Darrell Shimel

···

_________________________________________________________________
Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!� Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp

[jasonab]

corsairs game 101 wrote:

The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a lead
airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is still being
used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw us
without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many as
possible know we're being screwed.

Personally, I like automagic, and use it for all of my games. I have no idea where Clint tried to screw anyone. He proposed a discount over an increase for using the system, people complained, and he backed off.

That seems to prove the point of those you disagree with, rather than yours.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

[Harlequin_Games1]

>What I meant was that it might be better to have a pause for Clint to
>come up with some sort of overview on the current position.

WRONG!!!!! The best is for those that think this whole idea is really bad,
to keep stating their opinion.

*** For those that want it stopped. For those that want it to be implemented this opinion is, I feel, valid.

Last thing we need is for Clint to begin to
think that there isn't much opposition.

** I have checked out the numbers and relative numbers of postings etc. I have come to my opinion on what I feel the situation is. It happens to not agree with yours.

Rankings is the same thing. He can't force a system on the players that
don't want it, without us making sure as many players as possible know it
wasn't wanted.

*** I am aware of player feeling. What do you think this discussion's purpose is?

We will not shut up and go away. It is a bad idea, and if imposed on us, I
for one, will not lot it go without loud opposition.

*** Taken and you could well be right.

>Sometimes its better to look up from the immediate job in hand and get the
>bigger picture.

Here is a big picture. Bad Idea and drop it. Say "we listened to the
players" and gave them what they wanted.

*** Have done so and am acting on it.

Quit trying to shut people up. Address the points. Any ranking system will
have flaws.

*** Implicitly any non-ranking system will have flaws as well. In many sports there is a ranking system specifically brought in for very good reasons.

  "Cunning" players will be able to exploit the flaws to increase
their rankings. It will be not fun to be in a game with a player that is
simply in it to exploit flaws in the ranking system. It will be un-neato to
have a sucky player shoved in your face as one of the best players.
Therefore, any ranking system will be bad.

Now, explain to me where my reasoning is flawed instead of telling me to
shut up and go away.

*** I don't agree with your logic for the reasons given in other posts. I have a different perspective on the impact, the reasoning, implementation and outcome of this experiment.

Clint

···

At 17:29 22/10/02, you wrote:

[Uncle_Girion]

Ok. I am tenously deciding to take off my magic ring and quit
lurking.

This debate is becoming, well, odd at best.

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "corsairs game 101" <corsairs101@h...> wrote:

>What I meant was that it might be better to have a pause for Clint

to

>come up with some sort of overview on the current position.

WRONG!!!!! The best is for those that think this whole idea is

really bad,

to keep stating their opinion. Last thing we need is for Clint to

begin to

think that there isn't much opposition.

Ok. Why is the rating system "really bad"? It may not be favorable,
but "really bad"? I hardly think so. People play for many many
reasons. One of them -is- competition. If you =don't= want to play
for competition, OPT OUT. Apparently, while you and your game
is 'rated' it isn't used if you opt out.

I don't see anything bad about the system. I'm not necessarily
excited about it, but I imagine that in the long run it won't affect
me one way or the other.

The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a

lead

airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is

still being

used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw

us

without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many

as

possible know we're being screwed.

Excuse me? Clint is trying to screw people? Do you have video?

Seriously, this is so bizarre of a concept. I have had NOTHING but
positive contacts with EVERYONE at Harley. Automagic is something I
was originally against, but wow, its really getting nifty to use! I
eagerly await MEOW.

Also, I'm unconviced a Lead Airplane can't fly. Heck, they fly when
they are made out of steel... Now a lead balloon...

Rankings is the same thing. He can't force a system on the players

that

don't want it, without us making sure as many players as possible

know it

wasn't wanted.

This is like the old "Corporations make money on the backs of their
employees so they must be evil" argument. That argument is always
countered by: So they should not make money on the backs of their
employees and go out of business and then the employees will be
jobless? "No, just make them make less money." Oh, so when they have
sold x amount of widgets, just quit for the year?

Basically, the argument just doesn't apply to the facts.
If Harley says all orders must be accompanied by a freshly netted
flounder, then so be it. THEY HAVE THE LICENSE. The loudest sound for
any business is the sound of an empty or full cash register.

>Sometimes its better to look up from the immediate job in hand and

get the

>bigger picture.

Here is a big picture. Bad Idea and drop it. Say "we listened to

the

players" and gave them what they wanted. The PR will be much

better than,

we decided to impose an unwanted system, but we let you pick your

torture

device.

Here is a bigger picture. Competition drives sales. Its the entire
secret of Magic, Mage Knight, RPGA, GenCon, etc. I would suggest such
examples show that if you have a rating system, people increase their
interest in the game. "Oh, I didn't do good at this game, I guess I
better play more so I get better." "Wow! I have a chance to go up
against Sneaky Pete? He's really good!" Give out a pencil stub Clint
chewed on to each winner and you will get even more business.

Quit trying to shut people up. Address the points.

Ok

Any ranking system will have flaws.

Original Sin, buddy. EVERYONE has flaws. So, your point is.......

"Cunning" players will be able to exploit the flaws to increase

their rankings.

Cool. Cheaters. They still exist in all walks of life. Therefor
because of mankind's inherent evil, other shall be denied an
opportunity to compete. Sweet. How about this: You find players
exploiting the flaws in one of your games, take them out first! Self-
policing... (Of course that gets into the whole "who named you king"
argument but...).

It will be not fun to be in a game with a player that is simply in

it to exploit flaws in the ranking system.

Possibly your only fact based point. In game 50 (GSI) Rangers
assassinated Galadriel to increase their ritual kills :P. Of course,
this gets back to something ANYONE who was picked on in school by
bullies already knows. Do what you were doing and the bullies will
get bored and go away. Then grow up, get a real job and hire the
bully so you make a ton of dough off of his labor. Oh wait... Ok. A
real response: Look for your fun in the other teammates. or in your
own nation or in your opponents.

It will be un-neato to have a sucky player shoved in your face as

one of the best players.

This is true REGARDLESS of rating systems. A very good (in his
opinion) player was put in one of our games and he stunk. Or was that
me and I stunk? I get so confused. Anyways, the messages from
teammates can be just as annoying as anything. Also, it gives one a
sense of pride in saying "Ok Sucky Player, I see you were first
eliminated by the DS whilst my No-Army northmen defense has survived
to games end!"

Therefore, any ranking system will be bad.

...er good. actually, indifferent. The system itself will have no
morality attached to it, now that I think about it. If you mean bad
for the game, I doubt it. If you mean bad for players, again, I doubt
it.

Now, explain to me where my reasoning is flawed instead of telling

me to shut up and go away.

Never shut up and I'm not calling you a cab.

>Apologetically

Don't apologize, just stop doing it.
Darrell Shimel

It? Doing "it" perpetuates the species.... Spawn or die, man, spawn
or die.

Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl
(putting on asbestos)

[Harlequin_Games1]

The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a lead
airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is still being
used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw us
without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many as
possible know we're being screwed.

*** As this was a different topic I would like to answer this here.

Actually you're information is incorrect. A high percentage of player use it. (I would estimate between 50-66% of players were using it and by implication like it - and otherwise they would not use it. I think (we haven't checked recently but initial estimate) is that around 70%+ use it now. Heads of states get elected on less...).

The major reasons for not using it include:
1) Don't have Excel hence can't use it.
2) It does not work on my system hence can't use it.
3) I don't want to learn something new.
4) I don't want the GMs to benefit from it's implementation.
5) Waiting for MEOW. (Some players around 10-20% - presently in it's 3rd stage of playtesting. Lots of bugs and improvements to alter so it will be a while).
6) Don't want to use it or not computer literate enough to use it.
7) Had problems using it - hence don't want to use it.
8) Don't want to input the characters by hand (sorted with the new version).
9) Don't have email.
10) What's Automagic ?

We've attempted to listen to the feedback here and modified the program as best we can. I think it's pretty much correct now. We have some small amendments to make in the future but they are at best minor and don't impact on the game.

The less time that AM uses for players to create a turn and less edits it that it creates I think help indicate that this project is a success. It's something that a year ago we thought would be a pipe-dream but now I feel is great that we could achieve it. Thanks to Colin and Mike's excellent assistance here. It means that we will be able to interact the entire system with an improved SS turn, a better map reader and turn collater in future. Ie make the game better. Eventually we'll be able to offer extra programs and modules, better long term security and continue to increase the wages of our staff, and a better service to our players. It's entirely your call if you want to be a part of that - as always you have the right to opt out of using it.

Clint

[Harlequin_Games1]

Give out a pencil stub Clint
chewed on to each winner and you will get even more business.

*** You HAVE been videoing me... I have a perchant for destroying pens this way...

Clint

[A.D.Jeffrey1]

Sorry my mistake again. Should have read -

Its Clint thats gonna implement the ideas why not let him be the one to
choose the best ideas(and probably most workable) and we can review them
from there.

And perhaps this would have sounded better like -

If rankings don't mean that much to your gameplay ask yourself if whether or
not any ranking system, bad or good, will affect the way you play. If
someone backstabs you in a game for victory's then you have learned valuable
experience of that player. Much like any strategy game, diplomacy counts,
individuals will do what individuals want.

I also take your point and I was wrong in my earlier opinion that we should
opt-out of the debate. I too remember the top 3 and additionally the VC wars
of long ago. I shall therefore look in from the sidelines and comment on
what I don't like instead of playing devils advocate, mainly because I am a
dismal failure at it.

I also agree with your automatic input point. Every other email PBM game I
have played in has offered a discount for using the auto-input programs as
opposed to manual input. Then again that is something that has to be taken
up with Allsorts(and Clint). But I find it highly unlikely to belabor the
point as it would likely mean a look at the books, to lower turn fees, for
those who don't trust Clints' word and I can't see that happening.

Finally, "Cunning" players will be able to exploit the flaws to increase
their rankings. But, we can already do that if we want to. It is possible to
figure out where and when things will happen. If I had the time I might be
able to break every game down into seperate components and ask my team to do
orders based on this hypothesis. I since stopped caring about too much
number crunching and tend to play horse-lovers who shout loudly and drink
loads before killing orcs in the morning. My main disagreement with rankings
is that we've gone so long already without them that I don't think
introducing them now would be a good idea mainly because games might become
more dominated by stats rather than teamwork. Imagine the Noldo hoarding
gold to keep his VC's up whilst the Eothraim goes down the pan. No probs cos
the Free were going for a character war anyway, or at least those in the
Noldo cabal(who joined the game with him) are.

Perhaps I'm naive and a dreamer maybe but I reckoned to have gotten to the
point where I am enjoying my games again. It isn't the number crunching of
past ages nor is it the eternal quest to get in the top 3. The roleplaying
element has come back into it a little, I think, as players give positions a
make-over to fit specific roles. Sadly I have still to succeed in getting an
Eothraim 1650 Curse team up and running.

Comments will require a review. I'll check me stuff over and see if I've
goofed again. Don't think so this time though.

Alan J.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "corsairs game 101" <corsairs101@hotmail.com>
To: <lionatus@madasafish.com>; <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>;
<pbmnoot@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ratings?...to Brad, Darren, Laurence

>What I meant was that it might be better to have a pause for Clint to
>come up with some sort of overview on the current position.

WRONG!!!!! The best is for those that think this whole idea is really

bad,

to keep stating their opinion. Last thing we need is for Clint to begin

to

think that there isn't much opposition.

The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a lead
airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is still

being

used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw us
without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many as
possible know we're being screwed.

Rankings is the same thing. He can't force a system on the players that
don't want it, without us making sure as many players as possible know it
wasn't wanted.

We will not shut up and go away. It is a bad idea, and if imposed on us,

I

for one, will not lot it go without loud opposition.

>Sometimes its better to look up from the immediate job in hand and get

the

>bigger picture.

Here is a big picture. Bad Idea and drop it. Say "we listened to the
players" and gave them what they wanted. The PR will be much better than,
we decided to impose an unwanted system, but we let you pick your torture
device.

>Yet again if you feel I was in any way slating anyone I apologise

profusely

>but wouldn't it have been more polite to have asked what my reasons for
>saying such things?

Your reasons seemed quite clear. You wanted those opposed to a ranking
system to shut up and go away.

>Then I would have realised my error and explained my points.

Your point is? We should shut up while Clint decides what system to

impose.

  I think not. I think you should spend your effort figuring out why the
idea is so bad, instead of trying to silence those that have already

figured

it out.

>Its Clint thats gonna implement the ideas why not let him be the one to
>choose the best(and probably most workable) and we can go from >there.

See, this is just one more "shut up and go away". NO! I won't shut up

and

go away. I hope the system is not going to be imposed. I don't want to
shut up while the torture device is chosen. I want to stop the system
before it is implimented.

Quit trying to shut people up. Address the points. Any ranking system

will

have flaws. "Cunning" players will be able to exploit the flaws to

increase

their rankings. It will be not fun to be in a game with a player that is
simply in it to exploit flaws in the ranking system. It will be un-neato

to

have a sucky player shoved in your face as one of the best players.
Therefore, any ranking system will be bad.

Now, explain to me where my reasoning is flawed instead of telling me to
shut up and go away.

>Apologetically

Don't apologize, just stop doing it.

Darrell Shimel

_________________________________________________________________
Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp

[Harlequin_Games1]

I also agree with your automatic input point. Every other email PBM game I
have played in has offered a discount for using the auto-input programs as
opposed to manual input. Then again that is something that has to be taken
up with Allsorts(and Clint). But I find it highly unlikely to belabor the
point as it would likely mean a look at the books, to lower turn fees, for
those who don't trust Clints' word and I can't see that happening.

So you think that automatic inputted turns should be cheaper than hand input ones?

Clint

[Fierein]

This is the only PBM that I have played that offers a discount for
auto-input programmes rather than manual inputting. Every other one has the
cost being the same. Whether sending in orders through an auto-input
programme or recieving the results by e-mail.

Thomas Crane

>I also agree with your automatic input point. Every other email PBM game

I

>have played in has offered a discount for using the auto-input programs

as

>opposed to manual input. Then again that is something that has to be

taken

>up with Allsorts(and Clint). But I find it highly unlikely to belabor the
>point as it would likely mean a look at the books, to lower turn fees,

for

···

>those who don't trust Clints' word and I can't see that happening.

So you think that automatic inputted turns should be cheaper than hand
input ones?

Clint

[El_Sabio]

With deepest respect for my good friend, Darrell, I don't understand
why anyone would object to the implementation of Automagic.

Personally, I like it. I find it convenient and easy to use, and I
like the fact that it eliminates manual data entry. I like the cost
efficiency that brings - trusting that I, the customer, will benefit
at least in part from such efficiency. Even more, I like the fact
that one source of potential error has been eliminated. (and, come to
think of it, a second source - my own composing errors - has been
reduced)

The recent revision has further reduced my own data entry duties, and
(I admit it) I find it amusing to watch the program busily adding
data to one cell after another.

I do recognize that some players might find Automagic impractical or
undesirable, and I would hate to see players forced to use it. I
suppose I would like a price break for using it, but not at the cost
of hard feelings from the non-users.

Mark Jaede

[mcgoldrick_b]

I do recognize that some players might find Automagic impractical

or

undesirable, and I would hate to see players forced to use it. I
suppose I would like a price break for using it, but not at the

cost

of hard feelings from the non-users.

Mark Jaede

I personally love AutoMagic and I can't imagine life without it
anymore....although I still manage to make mistakes (like naming pure
emi's instead of pure agents).

Yeah I remember the price increase/concession causing bad feeling
amongst non-users but that point is now null and void as we all got
hit with the same VAT price increase.

So the only reason to use it now is if you like it or find it useful
and the 80% usage figures that Clint published speaks for itself.

[bshushan]

Just to clarify, from a non-AM user's POV:

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

>The whole automagic thing seems to have flown about as well as a lead
>airplane. Because of the way it was implimented, I'm glad it is still being
>used by a low % of players. Clint needs to realize he can't screw us
>without us noticing, being vocal about it, and making sure as many as
>possible know we're being screwed.

*** As this was a different topic I would like to answer this here.

Actually you're information is incorrect. A high percentage of player use
it. (I would estimate between 50-66% of players were using it and by
implication like it - and otherwise they would not use it. I think (we
haven't checked recently but initial estimate) is that around 70%+ use it
now. Heads of states get elected on less...).

The major reasons for not using it include:
1) Don't have Excel hence can't use it.

Not the case for me.

2) It does not work on my system hence can't use it.

Not the case for me (as far as I know - haven't ever actually opened the thing
and tried to run it).

3) I don't want to learn something new.

Sort of the case. You ought to have "don't have the time/energy to learn
something new" and I'd be very careful about categorizing that as "essentially
the same thing."

4) I don't want the GMs to benefit from it's implementation.

This is silly.

5) Waiting for MEOW. (Some players around 10-20% - presently in it's 3rd stage
of playtesting. Lots of bugs and improvements to alter so it will be a while).

This is sort of me too.

6) Don't want to use it or not computer literate enough to use it.

Doubt this applies.

7) Had problems using it - hence don't want to use it.

Definitely not me.

8) Don't want to input the characters by hand (sorted with the new version).

Didn't know this was an issue.

9) Don't have email.

???

10) What's Automagic ?

Not quite me ... but not too far off.

We've attempted to listen to the feedback here and modified the program as best
we can. I think it's pretty much correct now. We have some small amendments
to make in the future but they are at best minor and don't impact on the game.

The less time that AM uses for players to create a turn and less edits it that
it creates I think help indicate that this project is a success. It's
something that a year ago we thought would be a pipe-dream but now I feel is
great that we could achieve it. Thanks to Colin and Mike's excellent
assistance here. It means that we will be able to interact the entire system
with an improved SS turn, a better map reader and turn collater in future. Ie
make the game better. Eventually we'll be able to offer extra programs and
modules, better long term security and continue to increase the wages of our
staff, and a better service to our players. It's entirely your call if you
want to be a part of that - as always you have the right to opt out of using
it.

I don't "mind" learning it. It's just that other priorities have come before
doing so (and I have to say, in retrospect, that I wouldn't re-prioritize if I
could - the other stuff I've had to do - i.e., my "real life" - has in fact
precluded me from making a time commitment to this - of course, I could've
dropped my current ME games and instead spent the time to learn AM, but I doubt
you'd encourage that solution). Still intend to learn/use it _when_ the time
becomes available for me to use it with _enough_competency_ to feel I can depend
upon it.

Clint

$.02 (from the top of the bleachers)

b

[mcgoldrick_b]

I don't "mind" learning it. It's just that other priorities have

come before

doing so (and I have to say, in retrospect, that I wouldn't re-

prioritize if I

could - the other stuff I've had to do - i.e., my "real life" - has

in fact

precluded me from making a time commitment to this - of course, I

could've

dropped my current ME games and instead spent the time to learn AM,

but I doubt

you'd encourage that solution). Still intend to learn/use it

_when_ the time

becomes available for me to use it with _enough_competency_ to feel

I can depend

upon it.

I don't see too much to actually learn (although I do admit I am from
IT background). If you know how to open a file and start excel then
you've learnt about 30-40% of what you need to know...especially with
the latest version of AM.
The rest of the 60% - 70% is knowing how to type in your orders and
AM is set-up to make this easy and also lets you know if you've input
any errors. Then it's pressing the send order button.

In the long-run, the time it saves you from manually inputting your
orders into an e-mail will give you more time for the all-important
real life activities.

There are built-in instructions to guide you and also a read-me file.
Finally, if you have any problems then you'll find support from ME
games and this list. Once you get started and used it AM, then it can
make life really easy.

Up to you but it's at least one try to see if you like it. (Like me
and marmite....one try was enough to know that I hated the
stuff....yuch!)

[Harlequin_Games1]

> 3) I don't want to learn something new.

Sort of the case. You ought to have "don't have the time/energy to learn
something new" and I'd be very careful about categorizing that as "essentially
the same thing."

*** I thought the same - but I found it very easy to learn and implement and after a while it saved me a lot of effort in doing orders. The ability to send in a turn to us, then update it later on with changes is something that I now love. Helps me sort out some errors as well - I don't do 13 hex movement for characters now. With the XML I don't have to even edit the file. So although I was pushed into using it it now saves me a lot of time for a minimal expenditure of energy.

Sorry the list was off the top of my head so not 100% accurate

Note I suspect that MEOW will NOT be as good as AM. With Mike's endurance we have been able to hunt down many different aspects of very obscure situations and implement safeguards against them. With MEOW getting the thing written at all is hard work. We're hoping to get the extra 10% presently not using AM able to use it - leaving around 5-10% of our players (1-5% of email capable players) able to use this software. Then it's players' choice as to whether or not they want to.

Then we'll tie that into the MeMapmaker and other bits and pieces we're working on.

Thanks for the feedback.

Clint