Does anyone with authority know the rules governing recreating initial pop centers that vanish or are destroyed?
I have heard from several players that you can re-camp these locations, and do not need to name them the same name they started with. Unfortunately all my attempts at this have returned the “camp limit hit” text.
I have also heard speculation that recamping starting pops may only be possible when the camp limit is hit if you choose sites that started the game with fortifications. Can anyone confirm?
There are lots of theories about how the pop center limit works. The two most common are that it gradually expands over time and that, well, it doesn’t.
In any case, there’s a difference between “vanished” (to low loyalty) and “destroyed” pc’s. The latter show as ruins and the former don’t. Most people, including me, believe ruins are already included in the pc limit. That means you can re-post there any time.
You know, now that I think about it, I honestly don’t recall hitting a “ruins” of a pop that was newly created. Hit ruins where I’m expecting a starting pop all the time, though.
If I create a camp and it’s destroyed, does THAT hex show the Ruins of Burgertown, flying no flag? I hesitate to subscribe too easily, because I DO know that once the limit is “hit”, it’s still possible to make new camps sometimes at 555 when you’re destroying enemy pops at 230…or is that where the ‘growth’ theory comes in?
Just when you thought you knew everything, you can’t answer what looks to be a simple question…
I had the feeling that hexes containing pop centers at game start could ALWAYS be recamped (and gave double production) even when degraded leaving no ruin. And as Nanook states, new hexes could be recamped after camp limit had been hit only if they contained a ruin. I also have experience of being able to camp again after camplimit when burning another pop the same turn. But of course this could be due to pops degrading elsewhere OR the increasing pop limit. I guess if it worked that way (that you where able to place a new camp when burning one somewhere else and then recamp the ruin) could in the most extreme senario mean that one would be able to camp all hexes…
Jeppe
And Yes, you CAN call pops put down at ruins something new (inc. starting hexes). The name will only remain the same if you do not give a new.
Yes. The camp Burgertown placed in a new hex that is destroyed will give you the ruin of Burgertown. However if it degrades there will be nothing. I wonder if a start hex pop that degrades will give a ruin or nothing ? I will be able to check it eventually (Gandalf da prick has been around :/). Actually I think this is the case. In a 12vs12 match, all Easterlings degraded pops has ruins of whatever.
My non-absolute observations are that ruins are counted towards the pop limit in the early game but not in the end game. Might be wrong. Your emissary must survive the encounted with the S & W to create a camp. Since this is a personal encounter, there is no problem with posting a camp. You get no opporotunity to flee, the encounter is over before you can react.
Wow! Can’t believe we’ve made it this far without anyone promoting a theory on how the pop center limit grows (or doesn’t).
In any case,
Brad: bring it on! Nothing your questions can pose that I can’t meet with a factless opinion.
mgrazebrook: those encounters tend to be instant – they occur just by moving there – so in that sense, yes: you must defeat them or you’re too dead to make a camp.
But they’re often low-challenge anyway.
I wanted to thank everyone participating in this thread, the information that has been brought to light is valuable to myself and others.
Jeppe: You CANNOT camp a starting pop hex any day, anytime, if it vanishes without leaving a ruin, and the camp limit has been hit. I just did that and it failed. I save my turns and can send you proof after the game winds down. What I do not know is if a razed pop can always be recamped as Dan proposed…
Dan & Brad: Ok you baited me. I feel compelled to point out that the camp limit does not necessarily have to expand to allow someone to raze at 230 and post at 555. At the beginning of the turn camp limit=camp limit, at 230 camplimit=camp limit-1; at 555 post bring camp limit back to = camp limit again and all further camp attempts refused. Thus it would be possible for another position to sneak a camp in through this crack instead of the player who did the 230 depending on how turns are processed in regards to order initiative. I have heard other players confirm this idea.
That’s quite possible, and I’ve certainly seen it appear to work that way.
But other common theories are hard to disprove. One common one is that the pc limit increases slightly every 5 turns or so.
It’s tough to tally because you need such a close look at so many pdf’s. Having them all from one turn isn’t enough – you’d need to do a full count of everthing for several turns, with each of those including an attempted 552 or 555 order. I have the full set of pdf’s from a couple turns in a couple games, but I never counted all the pc’s and it wouldn’t be enough anyway.
Originally posted by thelebk
[b]Jeppe: You CANNOT camp a starting pop hex any day, anytime, if it vanishes without leaving a ruin, and the camp limit has been hit. I just did that and it failed. I save my turns and can send you proof after the game winds down. What I do not know is if a razed pop can always be recamped as Dan proposed…
[/b]
Okay - didn’t know that. Your word is evidence enough for me
I wrote a little program which produces a report of all pop centres for all nations for whom I have turns.
If anyone has complete sets of turns for all players for some consecutive turns, I could run it and return the results.
However what my program will not do is count unowned ruins, so I’m not sure it could answer this question. And it may have bugs.
If anyone wants to contact me off-line, try:
middle_earth at grazebrook dot com
Please don’t send lots of turns without talking to me first! I’m working overseas, and downloading megabites on a international dial-up connection is something I’d rather avoid.
