richard devereux wrote:
Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a surprise
in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to faithfully so that
the cinema audience was surprised as well.Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the final test?
Mt Doom wasn't the final test...
Gavin
> From: R.K.Floyd
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> <<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not
yet
> achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. >>
>
>
> Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who failed
to
> save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his
arms
> not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he could.
When
> his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took over
and
> finished the job.
>
> Russ
> Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a
surprise in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to faithfully
so that the cinema audience was surprised as well.
>
> Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the final
test? "Yeah, Gandalf, it was tough, but I threw the Ring into the volcano.
Gollum tried to grab the Ring but fell into the volcano after it. I tried
to save him but he bit my finger off in panic as he tried to scrabble back
up." And Sam - the only other witness - would of course loyally back up
whatever Frodo said.
>
> I'm going out on a limb here but I don't recall Frodo confessing his
failure to anyone.
>
> The scene where the entire cast knelt to the hobbits was, I agree,
overdone. Picture Bloggadan a fishmonger of Minas Tirith whispering to his
neighbour, 'why is our King kneeling to that little squirt?'
> The more knowledgeable neighbour replies, 'He threw the One Ring into
Mount Doom.'
> 'What Ring was that then?'
>
> Remember the ordinary citizens and peasants knew nothing of Rings of
Power, any more than ordinary people in WWII knew about the atom bomb until
it was dropped on Hiroshima.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
> From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> > Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it
was,
> for
> > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype
prior to
> > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two
films a
> > lot.
> >
> > Specifically:
> >
> > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
> seemed
> > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn
and
> > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action
occurred
> > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
> confusion.
> >
> > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the
biggest,
> most
> > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by
the
> > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen
> swings
> > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
> Obviously
> > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
> >
> > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you
took
> > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
> >
> > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
> >
> > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not
yet
> > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As
one
> > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the
hard
----- Original Message -----
From: R.K.Floyd
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
Richard,
Interesting ideas about Frodo not "admitting" his failure. I have some more
. . . maybe Sam DID leave Frodo at the steps near Cirith Ungol, but Frodo,
not wanting to "rub it in", left that part out of his book to spare Sam's
feelings when he inevitably read it.
RD: Yes, that would be in keeping with Frodo's image as a 'nice guy.'
I have more, but I'm about to fall out of my chair. Aaaaaah, sweet Midori .
. . .
Russ
RD: Who or what is Midori?
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
> ----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
> >
> > On the other hand:
> >
> > Shelob was good.
> >
> > Gavin
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
> >
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> > mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
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> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
richard devereux wrote:
> Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a surprise
> in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to faithfully so that
> the cinema audience was surprised as well.
>
> Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the final test?
Mt Doom wasn't the final test...
Gavin
RD: there always has to be a nit-picker doesn't there? OK it wasn't his final test in the book (altho it was in the film!), but it was certainly the most important.
Richard.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Gavinwj
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<< RD: Who or what is Midori?
Richard.
A greenish-colored melon liquor. 
Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
----- Original Message -----
From: R.K.Floyd
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King filmRichard,
Interesting ideas about Frodo not "admitting" his failure. I have some
more
. . . maybe Sam DID leave Frodo at the steps near Cirith Ungol, but
Frodo,
not wanting to "rub it in", left that part out of his book to spare
Sam's
feelings when he inevitably read it.
RD: Yes, that would be in keeping with Frodo's image as a 'nice guy.'I have more, but I'm about to fall out of my chair. Aaaaaah, sweet
Midori .
. . .
Russ
RD: Who or what is Midori?
Richard.----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: R.K.Floyd
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> <<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had
not
yet
> achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget.>
>
> Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who
failed
to
> save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his
arms
> not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he
could.
When
> his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took
over
and
> finished the job.
>
> Russ
> Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a
surprise in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to
faithfully
so that the cinema audience was surprised as well.
>
> Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the
final
test? "Yeah, Gandalf, it was tough, but I threw the Ring into the
volcano.
Gollum tried to grab the Ring but fell into the volcano after it. I
tried
to save him but he bit my finger off in panic as he tried to scrabble
back
up." And Sam - the only other witness - would of course loyally back
up
whatever Frodo said.
>
> I'm going out on a limb here but I don't recall Frodo confessing his
failure to anyone.
>
> The scene where the entire cast knelt to the hobbits was, I agree,
overdone. Picture Bloggadan a fishmonger of Minas Tirith whispering to
his
neighbour, 'why is our King kneeling to that little squirt?'
> The more knowledgeable neighbour replies, 'He threw the One Ring
into
Mount Doom.'
> 'What Ring was that then?'
>
> Remember the ordinary citizens and peasants knew nothing of Rings of
Power, any more than ordinary people in WWII knew about the atom bomb
until
it was dropped on Hiroshima.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> > Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it
was,
> for
> > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype
prior to
> > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two
films a
> > lot.
> >
> > Specifically:
> >
> > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the
flow
> seemed
> > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between
Eowyn
and
> > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action
occurred
> > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
> confusion.
> >
> > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the
biggest,
> most
> > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are
destroyed by
the
> > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half
dozen
> swings
> > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
> Obviously
> > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
> >
> > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if
you
took
> > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
> >
> > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
> >
> > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had
not
yet
> > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't
forget. As
one
> > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to
the
hard
> > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
> >
> > On the other hand:
> >
> > Shelob was good.
> >
> > Gavin
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Cheers!
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: R.K.Floyd
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
<< RD: Who or what is Midori?
Richard.
>>
A greenish-colored melon liquor.
Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: R.K.Floyd
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> Richard,
>
> Interesting ideas about Frodo not "admitting" his failure. I have some
more
> . . . maybe Sam DID leave Frodo at the steps near Cirith Ungol, but
Frodo,
> not wanting to "rub it in", left that part out of his book to spare
Sam's
> feelings when he inevitably read it.
> RD: Yes, that would be in keeping with Frodo's image as a 'nice guy.'
>
>
> I have more, but I'm about to fall out of my chair. Aaaaaah, sweet
Midori .
> . . .
>
>
> Russ
>
> RD: Who or what is Midori?
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: R.K.Floyd
> > To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
> >
> >
> > <<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had
not
> yet
> > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget.
>>
> >
> >
> > Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who
failed
> to
> > save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his
> arms
> > not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he
could.
> When
> > his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took
over
> and
> > finished the job.
> >
> > Russ
> > Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a
> surprise in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to
faithfully
> so that the cinema audience was surprised as well.
> >
> > Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the
final
> test? "Yeah, Gandalf, it was tough, but I threw the Ring into the
volcano.
> Gollum tried to grab the Ring but fell into the volcano after it. I
tried
> to save him but he bit my finger off in panic as he tried to scrabble
back
> up." And Sam - the only other witness - would of course loyally back
up
> whatever Frodo said.
> >
> > I'm going out on a limb here but I don't recall Frodo confessing his
> failure to anyone.
> >
> > The scene where the entire cast knelt to the hobbits was, I agree,
> overdone. Picture Bloggadan a fishmonger of Minas Tirith whispering to
his
> neighbour, 'why is our King kneeling to that little squirt?'
> > The more knowledgeable neighbour replies, 'He threw the One Ring
into
> Mount Doom.'
> > 'What Ring was that then?'
> >
> > Remember the ordinary citizens and peasants knew nothing of Rings of
> Power, any more than ordinary people in WWII knew about the atom bomb
until
> it was dropped on Hiroshima.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
> > To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
> >
> >
> > > Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it
> was,
> > for
> > > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype
> prior to
> > > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two
> films a
> > > lot.
> > >
> > > Specifically:
> > >
> > > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the
flow
> > seemed
> > > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between
Eowyn
> and
> > > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action
> occurred
> > > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
> > confusion.
> > >
> > > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the
> biggest,
> > most
> > > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are
destroyed by
> the
> > > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half
dozen
> > swings
> > > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
> > Obviously
> > > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
> > >
> > > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if
you
> took
> > > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
> > >
> > > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
> > >
> > > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had
not
> yet
> > > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't
forget. As
> one
> > > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to
the
> hard
> > > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
> > >
> > > On the other hand:
> > >
> > > Shelob was good.
> > >
> > > Gavin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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richard devereux wrote:
RD: Who or what is Midori?
A melon flavoured alcoholic beverage. You either love it or loathe it. Best
used in cocktails.
Gavin
richard devereux wrote:
RD: there always has to be a nit-picker doesn't there? OK it wasn't his final
test in the book (altho it was in the film!), but it was certainly the most
important.
Why thank you, Richard, for that well-reasoned and considered response. With
arguments like that, how can I possibly fail to re-evaluate my impression of
the film?
Gavin
richard devereux wrote:
> RD: there always has to be a nit-picker doesn't there? OK it wasn't his final
> test in the book (altho it was in the film!), but it was certainly the most
> important.
Why thank you, Richard, for that well-reasoned and considered response. With
arguments like that, how can I possibly fail to re-evaluate my impression of
the film?
Gavin
RD: For the guy who replied to my impression of the film with "it wasn't his final test" without any explanation as to why, mention of well-reasoned and considered responses stinks of hypocrisy.
Gavin, I won't ask you to re-evaluate your opinion of the film. Next time you're allowed out, ask your mummy to take you a pantomime. Then you can shout 'Oh no it isn't' to your heart's content and nobody will care.
Richard.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Gavinwj
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
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richard devereux wrote:
Gavin, I won't ask you to re-evaluate your opinion of the film. Next time
you're allowed out, ask your mummy to take you a pantomime. Then you can
shout 'Oh no it isn't' to your heart's content and nobody will care.
Did Santa fail to bring you the toys you asked for, Richard? It would
certainly explain your increasingly bitter posts and ad hominem attacks of
recent weeks...
Gavin
Its interesting that almost all of these points are ones that
Jackson admits to have wrestled with for a very long time. He
finally says, more or less, that he did the best he could.
I especially liked his discussion of Frodo's decision at the very
end.
Check out the interview with him in the current issue of Creative
Screenwriting ( you can order one at www. creativescreenwriting.
com). Its very good. It gave me a real insight for how freaking
difficult making this movie must have really been. At one point, he
was under pressure to only have TWO hobbits and to kill one of them
off! LOL, now THAT would have been a movie... ("Sam - I'm sorry,
but -I- love Rose! Die you fat pig of a halfling, Die!")
Later!
Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl
> The Paths of the Dead: The dead themselves should never have
> appeared at The Battle of Pelennor Fields. Aragorn arrives in
the
> Corsairs ships with the men of South Gondor who had remained to
> defend their homes.Well, yes, but explaining all that, and then having the Dead
dismissed
after winning a battle at Pelargir, and then loading the ships and
sailing up to Minas Tirith, and _then_ unloading there, would have
taken another 15-20 minutes, not to mention spoiling the surprise
when Aragorn arrives at Minas Tirith.I regard this as an allowable compression for the novel->film
translation. It's a basic structural problem in the story,
and Tolkien wrestled with how to present it (if you tell too much
of
the story before Aragorn's arrival, you miss the suspense...)
> The dead in the film seemed to be a giant can of
> orc bug spray, espescially that bit with them attacking the
mumakil
> (which, I agree, were FAR too large)and sweeping into Minas
Tirith.
I'll agree with you on both of these.
> Denethor: I was always struck by the gravity, sadness, nobility
and
> madness of Denethor. The film painted him as a buffoon. Gandalf
> himself paid the man respect and that bit with him striking him
> down with his staff had me tearing at my hair. And what was that
> nonsense with his burning body going over the edge of Minas
Tirith?
Yup. I think Denethor could have been done much better.
> Sam: Am I the only one who has a problem with Sean Astin? I
loved
> Sam and Astin just seemed miscast. Sam's courage and simple
> binding loyalty to Frodo, so critical, just didn't seem to shine
> through.I agree that that business on the stairs seemed
misplaced,
> though I thought Shelob was very well done, and I liked Cirith
Ungol.
Yup. Especially Shelob.
> Mordor: The massive blasted land seemed a small distance for
Frodo
> and Sam to travel onscreen. It looked right, just not large
enough,
> if you follow me. The battle at the Black Gates just seemed a
bit
> wrong to me as well, very Hollywood.
I think Jackson has a problem with time-space relationships (eg in
the first film, where Gandalf gallops off to visit Saruman and
gets most of the way back while the hobbits are just getting to
Bree.) It's probably allowable compression, but it's still a bit
difficult to handle.> special effects, when not overdone, were fantastic. Minas Morgul
> was greatAgreed -- I never really understood what it looked like till I
saw the film version. They _really_ got that right.Tony Z
--
There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that
periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation.
--Eric S. Raymond, on Thomas Kuhn's _The Structure of Scientific
Revolutions_
- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@e...> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 05:05:43PM -0000, compliance00 wrote:
Its interesting that almost all of these points are ones that
Jackson admits to have wrestled with for a very long time. He
finally says, more or less, that he did the best he could.
I especially liked his discussion of Frodo's decision at the very
end.
Check out the interview with him in the current issue of Creative
Screenwriting ( you can order one at www. creativescreenwriting.
com). Its very good. It gave me a real insight for how freaking
difficult making this movie must have really been. At one point, he
was under pressure to only have TWO hobbits and to kill one of them
off! LOL, now THAT would have been a movie... ("Sam - I'm sorry,
but -I- love Rose! Die you fat pig of a halfling, Die!")
Later!
Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl
RD: Or, Sam seeing Frodo put on the Ring and struggling with Gollum, runs up and boots the pair of them (and the Ring) into the fiery crevasse.
"Oi'm fed up with the pair of you, so I am. Bugger orf and take the wretched Ring with you."
Sam always was the hobbit with common sense, and Gandalf could wrap things up by saying something like, 'Well done Sam lad, it was really your mission all along, but we had to keep it secret until now, to keep attention off you.'
Richard.
> > The Paths of the Dead: The dead themselves should never have
> > appeared at The Battle of Pelennor Fields. Aragorn arrives in
the
> > Corsairs ships with the men of South Gondor who had remained to
> > defend their homes.
>
> Well, yes, but explaining all that, and then having the Dead
dismissed
> after winning a battle at Pelargir, and then loading the ships and
> sailing up to Minas Tirith, and _then_ unloading there, would have
> taken another 15-20 minutes, not to mention spoiling the surprise
> when Aragorn arrives at Minas Tirith.
>
> I regard this as an allowable compression for the novel->film
> translation. It's a basic structural problem in the story,
> and Tolkien wrestled with how to present it (if you tell too much
of
> the story before Aragorn's arrival, you miss the suspense...)
>
> > The dead in the film seemed to be a giant can of
> > orc bug spray, espescially that bit with them attacking the
mumakil
> > (which, I agree, were FAR too large)and sweeping into Minas
Tirith.
>
> I'll agree with you on both of these.
>
> > Denethor: I was always struck by the gravity, sadness, nobility
and
> > madness of Denethor. The film painted him as a buffoon. Gandalf
> > himself paid the man respect and that bit with him striking him
> > down with his staff had me tearing at my hair. And what was that
> > nonsense with his burning body going over the edge of Minas
Tirith?
>
> Yup. I think Denethor could have been done much better.
>
> > Sam: Am I the only one who has a problem with Sean Astin? I
loved
> > Sam and Astin just seemed miscast. Sam's courage and simple
> > binding loyalty to Frodo, so critical, just didn't seem to shine
> > through.I agree that that business on the stairs seemed
misplaced,
> > though I thought Shelob was very well done, and I liked Cirith
Ungol.
>
> Yup. Especially Shelob.
>
> > Mordor: The massive blasted land seemed a small distance for
Frodo
> > and Sam to travel onscreen. It looked right, just not large
enough,
> > if you follow me. The battle at the Black Gates just seemed a
bit
> > wrong to me as well, very Hollywood.
>
> I think Jackson has a problem with time-space relationships (eg in
> the first film, where Gandalf gallops off to visit Saruman and
> gets most of the way back while the hobbits are just getting to
> Bree.) It's probably allowable compression, but it's still a bit
> difficult to handle.
>
> > special effects, when not overdone, were fantastic. Minas Morgul
> > was great
>
> Agreed -- I never really understood what it looked like till I
> saw the film version. They _really_ got that right.
>
>
> Tony Z
> --
> There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that
> periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation.
> --Eric S. Raymond, on Thomas Kuhn's _The Structure of Scientific
Revolutions_
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----- Original Message -----
From: reedrichards2001
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:42 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Return of the King film/Jackson Interview
- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@e...> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 05:05:43PM -0000, compliance00 wrote:
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