Return of the King film

At last got to see this film. Brilliant, awe-inspiring! Best battle scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not see the join between human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.

Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that make their defeat all the more impressive?

Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch defenders from the parapets of Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could understand why the defenders were terrified.

Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first wall of Minas Tirith, but that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate was the plight of the besieged Gondorians.

Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the confrontation between the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the confrontation between the Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.

Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would you cut instead? Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf wrap it up saying 'he can do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of the shire etc which would be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the Pelennor fields and outside Morannon.

It must have been very difficult for anyone who has not read the books to follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was any more secondary threads.

Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the pathetic dwarf jokes and why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst Eowyn, a born horsewoman, was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can forgive that because Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.

Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best film of its kind since the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film trologies were invented.

Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: richard devereux [mailto:rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk]
Subject: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

Hopefully this doesn't spoil anything for those yet to see the film?

Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to

play,

as VP is an excellent villain...

Vincent Price? Not sure what you meant by that, as Mr. Price has been
dead since 1993. Christopher Lee played Saruman, and I agree that he did
an excellent job of it in the Two Towers.

Mike Mulka

···

-----Original Message-----

I've got to agree that the film was brilliant. By far the best of the
three. The Shelob encounter was my favourite bit of the film.

What I don't understand was the removal of a lot of the major character
confrontations of the book.

It would not have taken much film time for Gandalf to face Saruman, break
his staff and have Wormtongue throw out the palantir. Then Gandalf could
have said the 'he has no power now' line. No need to mean this would need
the inclusion of the scouring of the Shire.

Aragorn did not look into the palantir to confront Sauron and distract him
with the news that the king had returned - a great opportunity to show the
end of the 'doubt' that his film character had been cast with.

Gandalf did not confront the Witch King at the city gate. Weird especially
after the Witch King had stated that he would 'break the wizard', queuing up
the confrontation. Instead we have a seemingly pointless melee between
Gandalf and trolls.

The Mount of Sauron was removed, possibly with good reason given the film
length and additional confusion to the non-readers of the audience, so no
confrontation with him.

Denethor's madness was not explained by the finding of the palantir, but a
lot of time was spent on him otherwise.

Anyway the film was fantastic, but I think it could have benefitted greatly
from these additions with little extra cost or additional time.

Tony Ackroyd

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 7:08 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

At last got to see this film. Brilliant, awe-inspiring! Best battle

scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.

Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that make their defeat all the

more impressive?

Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch defenders from the parapets of

Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could understand why the
defenders were terrified.

Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first wall of Minas Tirith, but

that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.

Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the confrontation between

the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.

Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to

play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of the shire etc which would
be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.

It must have been very difficult for anyone who has not read the books to

follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was any more secondary
threads.

Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the pathetic dwarf jokes and

why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst Eowyn, a born horsewoman,
was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.

Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best film of its kind since

the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film trologies were invented.

Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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<<The Mount of Sauron was removed, possibly with good reason given the film
length and additional confusion to the non-readers of the audience, so no
confrontation with him.>>

* There's a whole page about Mouth of Sauron and pictures of his armor in
one of the movie books I bought. I'm sure we can expect him to show up in
the extended cut.

* Agree with everything you said. I was much looking forward to Gandalf
breaking Saruman's staff and Aragorn facing down Sauron via the palantir. I
did not understand the cuts given the short time these could have been done
in.

* My favorite part had to be Theoden and the Riders charging in. It gave me
chills both times I saw it. (I'm such a nerd . . .)

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "tonjan" <janton@ntlworld.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

I've got to agree that the film was brilliant. By far the best of the
three. The Shelob encounter was my favourite bit of the film.

What I don't understand was the removal of a lot of the major character
confrontations of the book.

It would not have taken much film time for Gandalf to face Saruman, break
his staff and have Wormtongue throw out the palantir. Then Gandalf could
have said the 'he has no power now' line. No need to mean this would need
the inclusion of the scouring of the Shire.

Aragorn did not look into the palantir to confront Sauron and distract him
with the news that the king had returned - a great opportunity to show the
end of the 'doubt' that his film character had been cast with.

Gandalf did not confront the Witch King at the city gate. Weird

especially

after the Witch King had stated that he would 'break the wizard', queuing

up

the confrontation. Instead we have a seemingly pointless melee between
Gandalf and trolls.

The Mount of Sauron was removed, possibly with good reason given the film
length and additional confusion to the non-readers of the audience, so no
confrontation with him.

Denethor's madness was not explained by the finding of the palantir, but a
lot of time was spent on him otherwise.

Anyway the film was fantastic, but I think it could have benefitted

greatly

from these additions with little extra cost or additional time.

Tony Ackroyd

----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 7:08 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

> At last got to see this film. Brilliant, awe-inspiring! Best battle
scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.
>
> Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that make their defeat all the
more impressive?
>
> Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch defenders from the parapets of
Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could understand why the
defenders were terrified.
>
> Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first wall of Minas Tirith, but
that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.
>
> Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the confrontation between
the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.
>
> Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to
play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of the shire etc which

would

be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.
>
> It must have been very difficult for anyone who has not read the books

to

follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was any more secondary
threads.
>
> Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the pathetic dwarf jokes and
why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst Eowyn, a born

horsewoman,

was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.
>
> Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best film of its kind

since

the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film trologies were

invented.

>
> Richard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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My main complaint was the way Jackson messed around with Sam and
Frodo on the stairs. I mean there was no way sam from the book would
ever had left Frodo alone...regardless of what Frodo said. For Frodo
to send Sam away and for Sam to actually start to go down the stairs
again was tough to accept for me. Tolkien wrote "Sam's will was set
and only death would break it". (or something like that). But Sam
leaving completely went against this passage from Tolkien and how
Tolkien wrote Sam.

I don't really understand why they did that except to add more
suspense factor... i.e. Frodo facing Shelob alone...will Sam get
there in time ? If that's what they wanted then they could have
simply followed the book as Sam was delayed already by Gollum's
attack. But doing what they did helped destroy the Frodo/Sam
relationship for me. They had already explained in the previous 2
films that Frodo was being turned to evil by the ring so I can only
think of the suspense factor for why they did it. Should have stuck
to the book as it was suspenseful enough.

Apart from that superb film, hated the gimli comic relief as per two
towers but I expected it this time. Laughed my head off when Orlando
goes "ahha a diversion". All I could think of at the time was "yeah
bravo blondie!!!" :slight_smile:

Cheers
Brendan

I think you've given a very good 'start' for the
director's cut DVD and some added scences.

Anybody up to watching a 4 1/2 or 5 hour film? :wink:

JCC

···

--- tonjan <janton@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I've got to agree that the film was brilliant. By
far the best of the
three. The Shelob encounter was my favourite bit of
the film.

What I don't understand was the removal of a lot of
the major character
confrontations of the book.

It would not have taken much film time for Gandalf
to face Saruman, break
his staff and have Wormtongue throw out the
palantir. Then Gandalf could
have said the 'he has no power now' line. No need
to mean this would need
the inclusion of the scouring of the Shire.

Aragorn did not look into the palantir to confront
Sauron and distract him
with the news that the king had returned - a great
opportunity to show the
end of the 'doubt' that his film character had been
cast with.

Gandalf did not confront the Witch King at the city
gate. Weird especially
after the Witch King had stated that he would 'break
the wizard', queuing up
the confrontation. Instead we have a seemingly
pointless melee between
Gandalf and trolls.

The Mount of Sauron was removed, possibly with good
reason given the film
length and additional confusion to the non-readers
of the audience, so no
confrontation with him.

Denethor's madness was not explained by the finding
of the palantir, but a
lot of time was spent on him otherwise.

Anyway the film was fantastic, but I think it could
have benefitted greatly
from these additions with little extra cost or
additional time.

Tony Ackroyd

----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 7:08 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

> At last got to see this film. Brilliant,
awe-inspiring! Best battle
scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not
see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.
>
> Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that
make their defeat all the
more impressive?
>
> Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch
defenders from the parapets of
Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could
understand why the
defenders were terrified.
>
> Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first
wall of Minas Tirith, but
that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate
was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.
>
> Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the
confrontation between
the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the
confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.
>
> Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had
no further part to
play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would
you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf
wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of
the shire etc which would
be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the
Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.
>
> It must have been very difficult for anyone who
has not read the books to
follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was
any more secondary
threads.
>
> Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the
pathetic dwarf jokes and
why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst
Eowyn, a born horsewoman,
was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can
forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.
>
> Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best
film of its kind since
the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film
trologies were invented.
>
> Richard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________
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Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
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Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it was, for
the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype prior to
seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two films a
lot.

Specifically:

It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow seemed
to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn and
the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action occurred
without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the confusion.

The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the biggest, most
well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by the
first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen swings
with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...? Obviously
physics isn't a certain director's strong point.

Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you took
the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.

I still think Galadriel was miscast.

The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As one
cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the hard
hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"

On the other hand:

Shelob was good.

Gavin

<<Apart from that superb film, hated the gimli comic relief as per two
towers but I expected it this time.>>

Gimli's comment when Aragorn released the Dead from their Oaths really
grated me. It was no better than the witless drivel I post on the forum.
If he has to be comic relief, at least make it witty.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "mcgoldrick_b" <mcgoldrickb@wanadoo.fr>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Return of the King film SPOILERS

My main complaint was the way Jackson messed around with Sam and
Frodo on the stairs. I mean there was no way sam from the book would
ever had left Frodo alone...regardless of what Frodo said. For Frodo
to send Sam away and for Sam to actually start to go down the stairs
again was tough to accept for me. Tolkien wrote "Sam's will was set
and only death would break it". (or something like that). But Sam
leaving completely went against this passage from Tolkien and how
Tolkien wrote Sam.

I don't really understand why they did that except to add more
suspense factor... i.e. Frodo facing Shelob alone...will Sam get
there in time ? If that's what they wanted then they could have
simply followed the book as Sam was delayed already by Gollum's
attack. But doing what they did helped destroy the Frodo/Sam
relationship for me. They had already explained in the previous 2
films that Frodo was being turned to evil by the ring so I can only
think of the suspense factor for why they did it. Should have stuck
to the book as it was suspenseful enough.

Apart from that superb film, hated the gimli comic relief as per two
towers but I expected it this time. Laughed my head off when Orlando
goes "ahha a diversion". All I could think of at the time was "yeah
bravo blondie!!!" :slight_smile:

Cheers
Brendan

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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<<It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
seemed
to be interrupted for no good reason>>

* I felt the editing at the black gate was a little off. I speak of the
part where Aragorn gallops forward a few paces and some quick "psychic"
whispering ensues . . . all of a sudden, Aragorn faces his comrades and says
"For Frodo!" then charges into battle. It just didn't look/feel right. Of
course, it didn't help that I was eagerly awaiting the Mouth of Sauron who
didn't show. The editing felt rushed in a few other places, as well. I
still loved it overall, though.

* I guess I'm a little fortunate that it's been about 15 years since I read
the books in Junior High School. I only retain a foggy memory of the overall
story so the little "changes" (like Sam leaving Frodo momentarily) didn't
offend me as much as they might. I guess I need to reread the trilogy
sometime now that I'm older and stupider. Then I can whine that it's not
like the movie. :slight_smile:

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it was,

for

the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype prior to
seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two films a
lot.

Specifically:

It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow

seemed

to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn and
the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action occurred
without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the

confusion.

The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the biggest,

most

well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by the
first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen

swings

with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?

Obviously

physics isn't a certain director's strong point.

Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you took
the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.

I still think Galadriel was miscast.

The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As one
cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the hard
hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"

On the other hand:

Shelob was good.

Gavin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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<<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. >>

Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who failed to
save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his arms
not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he could. When
his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took over and
finished the job.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it was,

for

the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype prior to
seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two films a
lot.

Specifically:

It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow

seemed

to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn and
the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action occurred
without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the

confusion.

The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the biggest,

most

well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by the
first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen

swings

with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?

Obviously

physics isn't a certain director's strong point.

Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you took
the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.

I still think Galadriel was miscast.

The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As one
cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the hard
hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"

On the other hand:

Shelob was good.

Gavin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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John Choules wrote:

Anybody up to watching a 4 1/2 or 5 hour film? :wink:

In the UK there are already plans for all three films to be shown back to
back. Gack! And I thought seeing three Star Wars films back to back was a
bum-number!

Gavin

Acckkk!! That business with Frodo and Gollum falling over together
and Frodo barely hanging onto the cliff edge was grating. What a
Hollywood cliche...I feel that Gollum himself, maddened and cackling
with glee, as it was in the book, tumbling over the edge into the
fire was far more effective. But I suppose Jackson couldn't resist
squeezing every bit of drama out of the thing.

Greg

<<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo

had not yet

achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget.

Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who

failed to

save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in

his arms

not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he

could. When

his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took

over and

finished the job.

Russ

From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@c...>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

> Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought

it was,

for
> the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype

prior to

> seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two

films a

> lot.
>
> Specifically:
>
> It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the

flow

seemed
> to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between

Eowyn and

> the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action

occurred

> without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
confusion.
>
> The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the

biggest,

most
> well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are

destroyed by the

> first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half

dozen

swings
> with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
Obviously
> physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
>
> Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if

you took

> the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
>
> I still think Galadriel was miscast.
>
> The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo

had not yet

> achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't

forget. As one

> cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to

the hard

···

----- Original Message -----
> hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
>
> On the other hand:
>
> Shelob was good.
>
> Gavin
>
>
>
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>
>

I'm with you...I left the theater grinding my teeth.

I suppose when you've loved these stories since childhood, as I
have, theatrical license might bother you more than most. The whole
of the film seemed very cartoonish to me and quite a spectacle. I
very much liked The Fellowship of the Ring, lest you brand me a
doomsayer.

Specifically:

The Paths of the Dead: The dead themselves should never have
appeared at The Battle of Pelennor Fields. Aragorn arrives in the
Corsairs ships with the men of South Gondor who had remained to
defend their homes. The dead in the film seemed to be a giant can of
orc bug spray, espescially that bit with them attacking the mumakil
(which, I agree, were FAR too large)and sweeping into Minas Tirith.

Denethor: I was always struck by the gravity, sadness, nobility and
madness of Denethor. The film painted him as a buffoon. Gandalf
himself paid the man respect and that bit with him striking him
down with his staff had me tearing at my hair. And what was that
nonsense with his burning body going over the edge of Minas Tirith?

Sam: Am I the only one who has a problem with Sean Astin? I loved
Sam and Astin just seemed miscast. Sam's courage and simple
binding loyalty to Frodo, so critical, just didn't seem to shine
through.I agree that that business on the stairs seemed misplaced,
though I thought Shelob was very well done, and I liked Cirith Ungol.

Mordor: The massive blasted land seemed a small distance for Frodo
and Sam to travel onscreen. It looked right, just not large enough,
if you follow me. The battle at the Black Gates just seemed a bit
wrong to me as well, very Hollywood.

  There's more, but I'm just grousing, I suppose, and liked the
other films far more when the extended DVDs were released. So I
expect the experience to be far richer and, now that I know what to
expect,
I'll see the films as themselves and not reflections necessarily of
the books.

I very much liked the prologue with Smeagol and Deagol and the
special effects, when not overdone, were fantastic. Minas Morgul
was great and I found the hobbits commiserating at the Green Dragon
touching. I would love to see the Scouring of the Shire but I
suppose there's little hope for that.

The thing about film adaptations is that they forever change the
initial vision for future readers, if they put forth the effort to
take the time to read at all when they could just pop in the DVD.
Modern times.

Greg

Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it

was, for

the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype

prior to

seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two

films a

lot.

Specifically:

It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the

flow seemed

to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between

Eowyn and

the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action

occurred

without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the

confusion.

The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the

biggest, most

well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed

by the

first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half

dozen swings

with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?

Obviously

physics isn't a certain director's strong point.

Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if

you took

the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.

I still think Galadriel was miscast.

The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had

not yet

achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget.

As one

cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the

hard

···

hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"

On the other hand:

Shelob was good.

Gavin

The Paths of the Dead: The dead themselves should never have
appeared at The Battle of Pelennor Fields. Aragorn arrives in the
Corsairs ships with the men of South Gondor who had remained to
defend their homes.

Well, yes, but explaining all that, and then having the Dead dismissed
after winning a battle at Pelargir, and then loading the ships and
sailing up to Minas Tirith, and _then_ unloading there, would have
taken another 15-20 minutes, not to mention spoiling the surprise
when Aragorn arrives at Minas Tirith.

I regard this as an allowable compression for the novel->film
translation. It's a basic structural problem in the story,
and Tolkien wrestled with how to present it (if you tell too much of
the story before Aragorn's arrival, you miss the suspense...)

The dead in the film seemed to be a giant can of
orc bug spray, espescially that bit with them attacking the mumakil
(which, I agree, were FAR too large)and sweeping into Minas Tirith.

I'll agree with you on both of these.

Denethor: I was always struck by the gravity, sadness, nobility and
madness of Denethor. The film painted him as a buffoon. Gandalf
himself paid the man respect and that bit with him striking him
down with his staff had me tearing at my hair. And what was that
nonsense with his burning body going over the edge of Minas Tirith?

Yup. I think Denethor could have been done much better.

Sam: Am I the only one who has a problem with Sean Astin? I loved
Sam and Astin just seemed miscast. Sam's courage and simple
binding loyalty to Frodo, so critical, just didn't seem to shine
through.I agree that that business on the stairs seemed misplaced,
though I thought Shelob was very well done, and I liked Cirith Ungol.

Yup. Especially Shelob.

Mordor: The massive blasted land seemed a small distance for Frodo
and Sam to travel onscreen. It looked right, just not large enough,
if you follow me. The battle at the Black Gates just seemed a bit
wrong to me as well, very Hollywood.

I think Jackson has a problem with time-space relationships (eg in
the first film, where Gandalf gallops off to visit Saruman and
gets most of the way back while the hobbits are just getting to
Bree.) It's probably allowable compression, but it's still a bit
difficult to handle.

special effects, when not overdone, were fantastic. Minas Morgul
was great

Agreed -- I never really understood what it looked like till I
saw the film version. They _really_ got that right.

Tony Z

···

On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 05:05:43PM -0000, compliance00 wrote:
--
There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that
periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation.
--Eric S. Raymond, on Thomas Kuhn's _The Structure of Scientific Revolutions_

But that would require that Jackson understand the basic point of
Frodo's pity for Gollum and its ultimate value, mad though it might
seem. I don't think he does (and he certainly doesn't seem to get
the Ring as a _temptation_, as something that the Free Folk could
have used to overthrow Sauron; he just presents the Ring as something
only Sauron _could_ use -- so he misses out on a lot of the points
involved.)

Tony Z

···

On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:26:21PM -0000, compliance00 wrote:

Acckkk!! That business with Frodo and Gollum falling over together
and Frodo barely hanging onto the cliff edge was grating. What a
Hollywood cliche...I feel that Gollum himself, maddened and cackling
with glee, as it was in the book, tumbling over the edge into the
fire was far more effective. But I suppose Jackson couldn't resist
squeezing every bit of drama out of the thing.

--
There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that
periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation.
--Eric S. Raymond, on Thomas Kuhn's _The Structure of Scientific Revolutions_

I think you've given a very good 'start' for the
  director's cut DVD and some added scences.

  Anybody up to watching a 4 1/2 or 5 hour film? :wink:

  JCC
  RD: Yes, on a rainy day during the summer hols!

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: John Choules
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 2:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  --- tonjan <janton@ntlworld.com> wrote:
  > I've got to agree that the film was brilliant. By
  > far the best of the
  > three. The Shelob encounter was my favourite bit of
  > the film.
  >
  > What I don't understand was the removal of a lot of
  > the major character
  > confrontations of the book.
  >
  > It would not have taken much film time for Gandalf
  > to face Saruman, break
  > his staff and have Wormtongue throw out the
  > palantir. Then Gandalf could
  > have said the 'he has no power now' line. No need
  > to mean this would need
  > the inclusion of the scouring of the Shire.
  >
  > Aragorn did not look into the palantir to confront
  > Sauron and distract him
  > with the news that the king had returned - a great
  > opportunity to show the
  > end of the 'doubt' that his film character had been
  > cast with.
  >
  > Gandalf did not confront the Witch King at the city
  > gate. Weird especially
  > after the Witch King had stated that he would 'break
  > the wizard', queuing up
  > the confrontation. Instead we have a seemingly
  > pointless melee between
  > Gandalf and trolls.
  >
  > The Mount of Sauron was removed, possibly with good
  > reason given the film
  > length and additional confusion to the non-readers
  > of the audience, so no
  > confrontation with him.
  >
  > Denethor's madness was not explained by the finding
  > of the palantir, but a
  > lot of time was spent on him otherwise.
  >
  > Anyway the film was fantastic, but I think it could
  > have benefitted greatly
  > from these additions with little extra cost or
  > additional time.
  >
  > Tony Ackroyd
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
  > To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 7:08 PM
  > Subject: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film
  >
  >
  > > At last got to see this film. Brilliant,
  > awe-inspiring! Best battle
  > scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not
  > see the join between
  > human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.
  > >
  > > Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that
  > make their defeat all the
  > more impressive?
  > >
  > > Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch
  > defenders from the parapets of
  > Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could
  > understand why the
  > defenders were terrified.
  > >
  > > Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first
  > wall of Minas Tirith, but
  > that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate
  > was the plight of the
  > besieged Gondorians.
  > >
  > > Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the
  > confrontation between
  > the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the
  > confrontation between the
  > Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.
  > >
  > > Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had
  > no further part to
  > play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would
  > you cut instead?
  > Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf
  > wrap it up saying 'he can
  > do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of
  > the shire etc which would
  > be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the
  > Pelennor fields and
  > outside Morannon.
  > >
  > > It must have been very difficult for anyone who
  > has not read the books to
  > follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was
  > any more secondary
  > threads.
  > >
  > > Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the
  > pathetic dwarf jokes and
  > why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst
  > Eowyn, a born horsewoman,
  > was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can
  > forgive that because
  > Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.
  > >
  > > Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best
  > film of its kind since
  > the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film
  > trologies were invented.
  > >
  > > Richard.
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
  > removed]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  > > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > >
  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
  > >
  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > > mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  > >
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  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  >

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apart from that superb film, hated the gimli comic relief as per two
towers but I expected it this time. Laughed my head off when Orlando
goes "ahha a diversion". All I could think of at the time was "yeah
bravo blondie!!!" :slight_smile:

Cheers
Brendan

RD: Agree that it was bad to get cheap laughs at Gimli's expense, but perhaps Jackson felt the film needed some comic relief, or pandering to the illiterate masses who never read the book.

I did, however, like Gimli's line after Legolas had single-handedly slain the crew of a mumak and and then the beast itself: "That still only counts as one!"

Richard.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it was,

  for
  > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype prior to
  > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two films a
  > lot.
  >
  > Specifically:
  >
  > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
  seemed
  > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn and
  > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action occurred
  > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
  confusion.
  >
  > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the biggest,
  most
  > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by the
  > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen
  swings
  > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
  Obviously
  > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
  >
  > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you took
  > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
  >
  > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
  >
  > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
  > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As one
  > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the hard
  > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
  >
  > On the other hand:
  >
  > Shelob was good.
  >
  > Gavin
  >
  >
  >
  > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  >
  >
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >
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  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: R.K.Floyd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  <<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
  achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. >>

  Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who failed to
  save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his arms
  not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he could. When
  his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took over and
  finished the job.

  Russ
  Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a surprise in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to faithfully so that the cinema audience was surprised as well.

  Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the final test? "Yeah, Gandalf, it was tough, but I threw the Ring into the volcano. Gollum tried to grab the Ring but fell into the volcano after it. I tried to save him but he bit my finger off in panic as he tried to scrabble back up." And Sam - the only other witness - would of course loyally back up whatever Frodo said.

  I'm going out on a limb here but I don't recall Frodo confessing his failure to anyone.

  The scene where the entire cast knelt to the hobbits was, I agree, overdone. Picture Bloggadan a fishmonger of Minas Tirith whispering to his neighbour, 'why is our King kneeling to that little squirt?'
  The more knowledgeable neighbour replies, 'He threw the One Ring into Mount Doom.'
  'What Ring was that then?'

  Remember the ordinary citizens and peasants knew nothing of Rings of Power, any more than ordinary people in WWII knew about the atom bomb until it was dropped on Hiroshima.

  Richard.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
  To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it was,

  for
  > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype prior to
  > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two films a
  > lot.
  >
  > Specifically:
  >
  > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
  seemed
  > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn and
  > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action occurred
  > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
  confusion.
  >
  > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the biggest,
  most
  > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by the
  > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen
  swings
  > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
  Obviously
  > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
  >
  > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you took
  > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
  >
  > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
  >
  > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not yet
  > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As one
  > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the hard
  > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
  >
  > On the other hand:
  >
  > Shelob was good.
  >
  > Gavin
  >
  >
  >
  > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
  >
  >
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >

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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: R.K.Floyd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  <<It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
  seemed
  to be interrupted for no good reason>>

  * I felt the editing at the black gate was a little off. I speak of the
  part where Aragorn gallops forward a few paces and some quick "psychic"
  whispering ensues . . . all of a sudden, Aragorn faces his comrades and says
  "For Frodo!" then charges into battle. It just didn't look/feel right.

  RD: Yes I agree. It obviously surprised his troops as much as the audience, as a totally irrational act, and Aragorn is supposed to be an experienced warleader!

  Still loved the film overall though,

  Richard.

  PS I tried to see it again last Tuesday only to find the first 3 showings all fully booked. So there is no doubt that the film is a huge success commercially. If it gets more people to read the books it will have served its purpose. If it gets more people to play the game, better still!

  Richard.

  0f
  course, it didn't help that I was eagerly awaiting the Mouth of Sauron who
  didn't show. The editing felt rushed in a few other places, as well. I
  still loved it overall, though.

  * I guess I'm a little fortunate that it's been about 15 years since I read
  the books in Junior High School. I only retain a foggy memory of the overall
  story so the little "changes" (like Sam leaving Frodo momentarily) didn't
  offend me as much as they might. I guess I need to reread the trilogy
  sometime now that I'm older and stupider. Then I can whine that it's not
  like the movie. :slight_smile:

  Russ

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
  To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard,

Interesting ideas about Frodo not "admitting" his failure. I have some more
. . . maybe Sam DID leave Frodo at the steps near Cirith Ungol, but Frodo,
not wanting to "rub it in", left that part out of his book to spare Sam's
feelings when he inevitably read it.

I have more, but I'm about to fall out of my chair. Aaaaaah, sweet Midori .
. . .

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: R.K.Floyd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  <<The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not

yet

  achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. >>

  Failure doesn't mean Frodo's not a hero. Would a firefighter who failed

to

  save a baby from a burning blaze and then died with the child in his

arms

  not be a hero? Frodo made huge sacrifices and went as far as he could.

When

  his will finally failed, fate/karma/the Will of Eru/whatever took over

and

  finished the job.

  Russ
  Firstly, Frodo -failing- at the very last stage of his mission is a

surprise in the book, and Jackson deserves credit for sticking to faithfully
so that the cinema audience was surprised as well.

  Secondly, who says Frodo admitted to anybody that he failed the final

test? "Yeah, Gandalf, it was tough, but I threw the Ring into the volcano.
Gollum tried to grab the Ring but fell into the volcano after it. I tried
to save him but he bit my finger off in panic as he tried to scrabble back
up." And Sam - the only other witness - would of course loyally back up
whatever Frodo said.

  I'm going out on a limb here but I don't recall Frodo confessing his

failure to anyone.

  The scene where the entire cast knelt to the hobbits was, I agree,

overdone. Picture Bloggadan a fishmonger of Minas Tirith whispering to his
neighbour, 'why is our King kneeling to that little squirt?'

  The more knowledgeable neighbour replies, 'He threw the One Ring into

Mount Doom.'

  'What Ring was that then?'

  Remember the ordinary citizens and peasants knew nothing of Rings of

Power, any more than ordinary people in WWII knew about the atom bomb until
it was dropped on Hiroshima.

  Richard.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
  To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Return of the King film

  > Oh dear, I think I'm about to be vilified... You see, I thought it

was,

  for
  > the most part, awful! I don't know whether it was the (over) hype

prior to

  > seeing it or what, but it left me cold. And I liked the other two

films a

  > lot.
  >
  > Specifically:
  >
  > It was badly edited. In places it just dragged and in others the flow
  seemed
  > to be interrupted for no good reason. The confrontation between Eowyn

and

  > the Witch King has already been cited as one example. Some action

occurred

  > without explanation, unless you'd read the book, and added to the
  confusion.
  >
  > The battle for Minas Tirith had me almost laughing. Here's the

biggest,

  most
  > well-protected fortress city we've seen and the walls are destroyed by

the

  > first chunk of rock that slaps into it yet it takes a good half dozen
  swings
  > with a gigantic battering ram to break down a reinforced door...?
  Obviously
  > physics isn't a certain director's strong point.
  >
  > Faramir was basically an afterthought. As was Gimli. In fact, if you

took

  > the dwarf out of the film, no-one would notice.
  >
  > I still think Galadriel was miscast.
  >
  > The far too Hollywoodian ending. The way the film ended, Frodo had not

yet

  > achieved his heroic stature: he failed at Mount Doom, don't forget. As

one

  > cinema goer behind me said to his girlfriend, "what happened to the

hard

  > hobbits sorting out the scum back home?"
  >
  > On the other hand:
  >
  > Shelob was good.
  >
  > Gavin
  >
  >
  >
  > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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