Revisiting the Player Rating System...

Well, it has been 10-11 months since the much heated “PRS” debates…

How is it going? Anyone proud of their scores? Most of the best players I know show up “not to high” on the list. I was on a top 5 grudge team until we changed our captain… now we’re not even top 25…

Is there any interest in re-visiting my 11 month old proposal for an alternate player rating system? Would this be something more people would brag about and try to score well at?

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Player Rating System 2.0

For a game as complex as MEPBM, it would be impossible to design a Player Rating/Ranking System (PRS) that accurately reflects how good a player is. Measuring “skill” is not the intention of PRS 2.0. Instead, the PRS is designed to reward certain behaviors, punish other behaviors, and generally encourage increased game participation.

The goal of the PRS is for all players to be proud to rank well.

Behaviors a ranking system should reward:
Winning games
Playing games
Playing challenging games
Picking up dropped positions
Neutrals that decide early
Neutrals that help game balance
Encouraging new players to join

Things it should punish:
Leaving a game prior to the end of the game
Experienced players stomping on newer players

The PRS must remain within the Box of Possibilities. This means the PRS must:
Not require a change to the game code (No new Victory Point system or different Victory Conditions)
Be reasonably easy to understand
Not be labor intensive
Give new players a “decent shot” of eventually moving toward the top

To accomplish these things the PRS is based on:
Adjusted Win %
Game Activity Adjuster (GAA)
Opponent Strength Adjuster (OSA)

These 3 scores will be multiplied together to determine Player Rating.

ADJUSTED WIN %
Win % is based on the last 10 positions completed for each player. Every player is given 1 free win to provide new players a rating even before they’ve gotten their first win. This free win will fall off once a player has completed 10 positions.

Adjusted Win % is calculated as:
The sum of points for positions completed divided by the number of positions completed (1-10).

Points Status
1 Alliance wins and you’re active at game end
0.5 Alliance wins but you were eliminated prior to game end
0 Loss (active or eliminated)
-0.5 Transfer (you found replacement)
-1 Drop (ME Games had to find a replacement)

Special Circumstances:
When half or more of an alliance quits at the same time, it is a loss, not a drop.

Any time that one alliance has 30% more nations than the other (average of the other for FA) you may drop and the game will count as
a “win but eliminated” if your alliance had more nations or
a “transfer” if your alliance had fewer.

Any time that one alliance has 50% more nations than the other (average of the other for FA) you may drop and the game will count as
a “win” if your alliance had more nations or
a “loss” if your alliance had fewer.

The only time a transfer would not count against you is if you’re trading positions within a game. That is, transferring a position but remaining in the game.

If MEGames determines a dropped position to be not viable due to its condition (doesn’t even try to find a replacement), then it counts as being eliminated, not dropped.

Games lasting fewer than 10 turns are not counted as a win, but are counted as a loss, transfer or drop for the losing team.

If you’re playing 2 or more positions at game end and the team wins, then it counts as one game completed per position. This encourages picking up teammate’s positions before they hard drop. (Add a limit that you had to be playing the position for at least 5 turns to prevent transferring a lot of positions on the last few teams to one player to up their rating?)

If you’re playing 2 or more positions at game end and lose, it only counts as one loss per position you started the game with. This is to encourage you to pick up teammate’s positions, even if it looks like you’re losing.

For a player that starts as a neutral,
Third Age:
The game doesn’t count as a win or loss unless:
successfully change allegiance on or before turn 12
successfully change allegiance at least 10 turns before the game ends
and are one of the first 3 to join the side.

Fourth Age:
Nations neutral on turn 13 are considered on the neutral alliance meaning the game is a win if the neutrals win, but a loss if FP or DS win.

If not neutral on GT13, then must have
changed 10 turns before game end
be first kingdom or one of the first 5 non-kingdoms to join the alliance.
(Exceptions may be made on a case-by-case basis, such as 6 neutrals joining one side and both kingdoms joining the other and game ending in a means other than strategic victory)

GAME ACTIVITY ADJUSTER
The Game Activity Adjuster (GAA) is a measure of how many positions you play over time. You receive one point per position played per game season. Each time the season changes within the game, each player receives one point for each position they are playing (2 points for 1-week games). Additional points are added for each position started or picked up during the season.

To give newer players a decent chance of moving up, only current plus 19 seasons (5 years) will be tracked. GAA points will be reduced at a rate of 5% per season. That means that the most recent half of the 5 years of activity will account for 75% of your score. If you want to climb up the list, or stay at the top, you must continue to play a fair number of games.

To get the GAA, sum up the products of current + 19 prior seasons and (20-seasons ago)/20.
Where n = 0 is current season and n=20 is 5 years ago

GAA = ∑(n = 0 to 20) positions played(n) * (20-n/20)

A player that has played 1 position at a time for 5 years, would have a GAA of (1 * 20/20) +(1 * 19/20) + (1 * 18/20)… + (1*1/20) for a total of 10.5.

Twice as many positions gets double the adjuster.

A player that has played 1 position per season but has only been playing 2.5 years (current + 10 seasons) would have an adjuster of (1 * 20/20) +(1 * 19/20) + (1 * 18/20)…+ (1*10/20) = 8.25. That is about 75% as much as a player that had been playing 1 game per season for the full 5 years.

It is unlikely a player would take up 10 positions in one season to be considered as active as someone that has been playing 1 position at a time for 5 years. However, a year of playing 3 positions at a time, and a new player could get an adjuster as high as a player that has been playing 1 position at a time for 5 years. Again, it isn’t a measure of experience or turns processed. It is a measure of how active you are in the game. Three positions at a time for a year is more active than one position at a time for 5 years.

OPPONENT STRENGTH ADJUSTER
The Opponent Strength Adjuster (OSA) is by far the most complicated factor. It is an approximate measure of the difficulty of the games played. It updated on a turn-by-turn bases, and it compares the ratio of nations and relative experience per alliance.

Each player starts with an Opponent Strength Adjuster of 1. The amount of adjustment, over the course of a full year(26 turns), is approximately:
The % difference in number of active positions, and
1/10th the % difference in experience.

Playing 1 position in a game where your alliance has 30% fewer nations, for 26 turns will result in about 30% increase in OSA. Playing 1 position in a game where the players of your alliance have 30% less experience, for 26 turns, would get you about 3% increases in rating. If the enemy has less nations and/or experience than yours, you’ll receive drops instead of increases.

The gory details
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Player Experience = sum of positions played per season for current + 19 previous seasons (GAA without the 5% per season aging).

IF opponents are more experienced
Experience Adjustment = 1 + (sum of opponents experience - sum of allies Experience)/ sum of opponents experience *260). If you have 25% less experience than them, you gain 2.5% over 26 turns.
IF your allies are more experienced
Experience Adjustment = 1 - (sum of allies Experience - sum of opponents experience) / sum of allies experience *260). If they have 25% less than you, you lose 2.5% over 26 turns.

If opponents have more nations
Nations Adjustment = 1 + (# of enemy nations- # of ally nations)/ (# of enemy nations26).
If opponents have fewer nations
Nations Adjustment = 1 - (# of ally nations- # enemy of nations) / (# of ally nations
26).

New OSA = Old OSA * Experience Adjustment * Nations Adjustment
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Neutrals aren’t counted except for FA games beyond GT12 where they are considered a 3rd alliance and the number of enemy nations is averaged before being compared to the number of friendly nations.

The result of this system is that playing 26 turns (against players with similar experience) with a 14/11 split in your favor (opponents have about 20% fewer nations and experience) would result in a 21% drop in your rating. OSA goes from 1 to 0.7893.
This is a huge shift, but a 14 vs. 11 game shouldn’t go a full year.

Playing a 12 v 12 game, for 26 turns where your team averages 5+ years of playing 3 games at a time (60 XP) against a team that averages 2 year of playing 2 games at a time (16XP) (they have 70% less experience) results in a about 7% drop in rating over 26 turns.
This may seem like a small change, but it is almost the same as the difference between winning 6 of your last 10 games instead of 7 of your last 10 games.

To discourage lone hold outs from trying to get big changes in their OSA by continuing to play with 90% fewer nations, OSA will stop adjusting for any game where there are twice as many nations on one alliance as the other (or average of the others for FA).

OVERALL RATING/RANKING
Rating = (Adjusted Win %) X (Game Activity Adjuster) X (Opponent Strength Adjuster)

All players that have been in at least 1 game this season or last season will be sorted by rating. Sort position determines Ranking.

  1. Show some examples to prove that simply playing lots of game won’t drastically increase the rating. I see 2 percentages multiplied against the GAA.

a- the more you spend the higher your rating
b- the best player in the world takes a hiatus and then comes back slowly to find himself in the middle of the pack… Thanks for going to Iraq and all, but how much money have you spent lately? Sorry…back of the line…?

  1. Detail what kind of administrative steps the company would have to take to track this. There seem to be lots of “if’s” here - you say at the start that it be “not labour intensive”…? I presume that if provided with a sample of their database/game tracking system, you could write the code?

Current PRS has different scores that reflect different aspects of the game (Istari, Maia, etc). I see one score as too simplistic. 3 scores may very well be wildly inaccurate, but really, are players “rateable” anyway? I’m under the impression that it’s all mostly a silly frill any way. Taking it too seriously (as before…) such that it’s imperative to create a perfect formula is quite unnecessary, I believe. (I still like the one I had published in Bree years ago anyway…not that I can remember it, but it was Mine, so I like it best!).

Brad Brunet

No good can come of this…

  • Ben

Same with the current PRS… In fact, it is kind of the point of the PRS.

To score well, you have to win a lot, you have to play challenging games, AND you have to play a lot.

  1. PRS is not a measure of skill. The game is FAR, FAR, FAR too complex for any rating or ranking system to get even close to measuring skill.

The current PRS is a hodgepodge of “how much you play”, “how much your teammates play”, “how much you win”, “how greedy of a player you are”, “getting other players to actually bother to send in votes”… The current system is NOT a measure of skill, and neither is this proposed system.

The best player in the world would only score well if they play a lot, win a lot, and play challenging games.

  1. The current system also punishes those that take a haitus. Again, kind of the point. The PRS was created to encourage people to play more games, spend more money… The question is, do we want a system that rewards poor play, or do we want a system that ignores the STUPID VP crap and instead focuses on “games played”, “games won”, “difficulty of the game”.

Every day they’d run a command line executable that would read in all the xml files from all the turns processed that day. This would update the majority of the data.

Or, if I had access to the results access database, could probably pull the daily data right from there, and since they’re already porting the printer app to PC, could probably hook right into that and even print your ranking data right on your turn report in place of the current VP system.

Manual entries (through a GUI) would have to be made when a position changes hands (was this a hard drop the company had to find a replacement for, or a transfer the player arranged themself?). Again, may be able to tie right into the existing game database since it is being ported to PC as we speak. The GUI could also be used to edit any of the data used in the calculations to correct an appeal and what not.

There would really be very little overhead for the company… Probably no more than there is for the current PRS.

I see the current system as a NIGHTMARE.

Two of the scores rely on the VP system that was designed to INTENTIONALLY CAUSE poor team play! MOST players I run across HATE the VP system that encourages backstabbing and infighting and selfishness.

One relies on votes, which few players bother to submit.

One is a measure of how experienced your teammates are, actually encouraging the most experienced playerd to gang up on weaker opponents.

The Grudge team ranking requires you have the exact same captain every game.

In short, the current system is so HORRIDLY designed and HORRIDLY implemented (Heck, my scores were yanked, and refused to be put back, simply because I pointed out that half my scores were missing!) that just about ANYTHING would be FAR, FAR, FAR better.

Inaccurate? Depends on what you mean by accurate? Measure of skill? NO system can be accurate using that definition.

This system would acurately track positions/turns played. It would acurately track wins and losses. It would accurately track players be alliance and expereince(number of turns processed) by the players on those alliances and use this to determine game difficulty.

If you have proposals for a more acurate system, love to hear them.

That was the point of this thread… Is there interest in the PRS.

Despite that the board and email list showed mixed at best, unfavorable in general, reaction to the proposal of the current system when it was made a year ago, according to Clint, there was huge support for PRS in private emails… Not sure I belive that, but that is beside the point.

IF there is this hidden support for a PRS, is there support for a better PRS.

I see the current system as ONLY harmful. While the experienced players see it as a joke, the newbies may see all those lists of high VP “winners” and decide they want to get on one of the lists… suddenly they pick up a self-centered, selfish, poor team play style.

In 233, we had a newbie Dwarf player that (using mounts I sent him) recruited a heap load of cavalry, then he actually used them to RUN AWAY from fights. In the mid-game, when we were going all out on emissary assaults trying to pick up firtified enemy pops, he flat out refused to discuss doing anyting with his E70s except ImprPop camps to villages and villages to towns. This is the kind of play that the current PRS rewards…

With all due respect,

This horse looks quite dead to me.

If you really have a problem with rating, just do like I do : ignore the whole thing, and be very happy.

Cheers,
Didier

FA 144

I agree somewhat with the others, I pretty much ignore it. It is a broken system and we can all agree on that issue.

If you are going to take another PBM system’s model for tracking players and ranking them. You might look at the PBM game VICTORY. I only played this game a few times, but the Victory points they tracked were actually very impressive. Instead of a balance sheet approach (forgive my accounting lingo; but I am an accountant), they used an income statement approach. They accounted for kills, not just character kills, but troop kills. They accounted for PCs taken and lost. They accounted for production gained, created, lost and given. It was also accounted for as a percentage of what you started with, so a growth factor was involved. I suggest if a re-vamp of the player rankings are going to be examined; it is done using more of an income statement approach within a game, accounting for all the +/-'s that a player accomplished in a game. Which attributes to track would be debatable, but I think the over-arching flaw of the VP system is the Balance sheet design of it. Finally, I also agree on winning percentage vs. wins. If you play in every game ever created, you bound to win a few, but does that really set you apart from the rest? Bottom line is ME-PBM isn’t really designed to be an individual game, so individual goals are still very trival.

My 2 cents,
Dave Thomas

This argument was made 100 times a year ago, and it has a fatal flaw.

Even if I ignore the PRS, it could still effect my game enjoyment. It only requires 1 of the 25 players in the game to focus on greedy, self-centered, PRC centric play, to screw the game for the other 24.

SO, only IF you can guarantee me that I’ll NEVER be in a game where there is even one player playing for a high VP score to get bragging rights in the PRS, can I just ignore it…

As for being a dead horse, if SHOULD have been a dead horse a year ago when the horrid idea was proposed… Unfortunatly, Clint was had pre-determined to cram it down our throats before he even started asking our opinion on it…

It is Clint’s refusal to KILL this HORRID idea that keeps the dead horse lying around stinking up the game…

I’m just trying to improve on a horrid idea.

I think you’ll find that the 1 out of 25 players you mentioned who focused on greedy, self-centered, screw up the game style of play would have done so whether there is a PRS or not.

I don’t think the PRS is the cause of the style of play you might deem “inappropriate”. Nor do I think implementing what you might think is a perfect PRS will lead to nirvana of people playing to the exact norm you think is appropriate. I think jerks exist and always will exist and will always play like a jerk no matter how many points they gain or lose or how much someone says they are a jerk.

More rules, more resitrictions, more regulations, more dictations I have found rarely ever actually add to the enjoyment of the game. You seem to want to implement a system that will change other people’s play to something you deem more acceptable. It cannot be done.

I believe in the market being the ultimate arbiter. If the PRS is such a bad thing then sales will drop off, the number of people playing the game will dwindle and then changes will be made to meet the needs and desires of the consumer.

-Corbin

Darrell,

You are a brave man. Remember in Monti Python and the Holy Grail where the knight “wasn’t dead yet”…?

My $0.02 is:
a. PRS is pretty dumb and doesn’t reflect the team nature of the game in its modern form. it’s dumb that you can quit a game and not have that game count as a loss… I could go on and on… As you know, I’m not a fan of PRS.
b. I haven’t seen a whit of evidence of it affecting people’s play in the non-grudge games I’ve been playing (obviously it doesn’t affect play in grudge games). For example, game 31 just ended today. That was a pickup game. the DS won. we won by total teamwork. period. there was no PRS-focused playstyle on our team anywhere. If there was on the FP team, well, they lost. so their PRS scores all suffered. But i doubt they even had that kind of problem.
c. as such, i personally think it’s a waste of time & energy to debate this again.
d. if you feel the topic must be dredged up again, then i would suggest that you present your ideas (which you did nicely in the opening article to this thread) and then let people respond. Don’t jump all over every response. Let people respond and be patient to see what the responses are. If after a couple of weeks, this thread stays active and there is a bunch of support for some of your ideas, then you have a shot at getting Clint’s attention. If the thread doesn’t stay active without you bumping it, then frankly, people don’t share your passion for this topic, and as such, as Corbin pointed out, the “market” will be voting that it’s a don’t care, so Clint won’t care either.
My point in (d.) is that you do more disservice to your ideas by continually arguing, than if you were patient and let people read, digest and discuss things.

cheers,
Dave

I dropped out the PRS for sometime because I thought it would encourage poor play. I have seen no evidence of this and being a stat person, I decided to join back up.

No system is perfect nor will a new one be. I look at many of the top rated players and get a chuckle. I play with one now where I check his orders every turn to make sure he does not bankrupt.

I like the top 10 nation scores for each position. I believe it was Gixxxer (apologies is not) that said “I do not need any list to tell me that I am better than the players listed in the PRS.” Those are wise words indeed.
If were to play a game that my life depended on me winning the game, I would pick form outside the top PRS players because I think there are better ones out there.
The only true measure of good/great player is for his allies to say, " damn I’m glad xxxxx on our side and for his opponets to say oh-shizt xxxxx is on the other side.”

In closing I think it is non-issue. If someone is really upset about the PRS then they have a damn good life if that is their major concern for the day/week/month.

My 2 coppers and no offense to anyone.

Steven McAbee

Hi Darrell,

Yes actually, am fairly proud of my scores. I have a few votes from team mates when I didn’t expect any, and even a couple of votes from opposition, when I would not otherwise have thought they’d even noticed the contribution of my nation’s play. As for the non-voting categories, I take no notice of them, don’t know how they work, nor can I see where one finds the explanations/formulae!

I don’t like your suggestion at all I’m afraid, I’m opposed in principle to a formulaic system, and certainly one which goes into pages and includes arcane mathematical symbols which mean nothing to me.

I have been one of the keenest exponents of a PRS from the start, but it lost its way long ago, when formula to “correct” the fundamentally flawed VP system was accepted by the company as a way forward.

In fact initially I never called it a Player Rating System, I wanted a chart or a table, still do. What I’d like to see is the data in a spreadsheet: Names, contact details, number of games played, won, votes, and as much other data as people want. Then advanced mathematicians like you can weave magic with it, and the easily pleased, such as myself, can look just at the columns which interest us. The solution is simplification. Giving the raw data only is the best way to please the greatest number.

I must also confess to feeling very jaded about the whole issue. Several months ago I advised the company that the team I was in, The Sarumen, was now only 4 members, and therefore was in breach of the PRS definition of a rated team. I pointed out that we either needed to lose our ranking, or the rule needed to be corrected. The reply I recieved said that they were too busy with the buyout to deal with the issue. The Sarumen are now only 3 of the original members, but still listed (highly). This disinterest in the active maintenance of the PRS, to me completely undermines its value. :frowning: