Rulebook

I'm really torn on the idea of replacing the current rules with a "how to".

In many ways I see the need. I read the rulebook on all the combat modifiers and began having visions of a couple hundred well trained and equipped LI stomping a larger force of crappy HI. We all know that can't happen, and it would be good if the rules just came out and explained why no one recruits light troops.

The economy is equally confusing. I've seen expereinced players go backrupt by buying too much, thinking the system would just round off their purchase to what they could afford.

Then again, I'd hate to see a "how to" go into too much depth about relative value of curse vs. agent artifacts or other "debatable" issues.

Darrell

···

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Yes it would be hard to get the advice level correct. We'd like to try. We have to do it a lot anyway when players ask us "How to Y" multiple times a week. Or "can you Clarify Z for me?"

Clint

···

I'm really torn on the idea of replacing the current rules with a "how to".

In many ways I see the need. I read the rulebook on all the combat
modifiers and began having visions of a couple hundred well trained and
equipped LI stomping a larger force of crappy HI. We all know that can't
happen, and it would be good if the rules just came out and explained why no
one recruits light troops.

The economy is equally confusing. I've seen expereinced players go backrupt
by buying too much, thinking the system would just round off their purchase
to what they could afford.

Then again, I'd hate to see a "how to" go into too much depth about relative
value of curse vs. agent artifacts or other "debatable" issues.

Darrell

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I'm really torn on the idea of replacing the current rules with a "how to".

What are we going to do with you Old Chap? You are the Ayatollah of your own Anti-PRS cult, but then when Clint comes out with a real shocker, which almost everyone (so far) has condemned, you sit on the fence! I hope you're not feeling battered into adopting a moderate stance to compensate for your ultra-radical reputation :wink:

(Taking the liberty of moving your last summative paragraph up)

Then again, I'd hate to see a "how to" go into too much depth about relative
value of curse vs. agent artifacts or other "debatable" issues.

In many ways I see the need. I read the rulebook on all the combat
modifiers and began having visions of a couple hundred well trained and
equipped LI stomping a larger force of crappy HI. We all know that can't
happen, and it would be good if the rules just came out and explained why no
one recruits light troops.

But even that is opinion. Some players will argue that there are certain situations where light troops can be used.

The economy is equally confusing. I've seen expereinced players go backrupt
by buying too much, thinking the system would just round off their purchase
to what they could afford.

Yes, but there are times when this risk is taken knowingly in the expectation (or desperate hope) of the gold coming in from another source.

When we were discussing a hypothetical 2nd Edition 18 months ago, one of the major, and much repeated laments from worried lurkers was "you're making it too complicated". There was broad agreement that the rule book should not become more lengthy, as that would put off new players. If the orders get a gloss, with strategic guidance, recognition of alternative option, and cases where exceptions to principles might apply, then we're going to end up with a telephone directory.

Most importantly, it is important to recognise that there are already plenty of "Beginners Guides" and sermons on advanced strategy, already out there. They've been written, many are on the web (though too many are rather inaccessible through being buried in old copies of Mouth of Sauron and News from Brie). And they are independent, claiming to be the opinions of a single writer. It is to these sources that new players should be directed, so that they can learn, question, and ultimately decide for themselves about "good play".

I'd like to see Mepbm games getting some existing projects, like MEOW and PRS up and running, tested and evaluated, rather than starting new projects at this moment. But if they do have all this spare time, I think their efforts would be better spent on creating a well organised web archive of existing material rather than producing a subjectively rewritten rulebook.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 01:04 23/10/2002, corsairs game 101 wrote:

But that's an argument for a FAQ document, not a new rulebook.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 01:29 23/10/2002, Clint wrote:

Yes it would be hard to get the advice level correct. We'd like to
try. We have to do it a lot anyway when players ask us "How to Y" multiple
times a week. Or "can you Clarify Z for me?"

When we were discussing a hypothetical 2nd Edition 18 months ago, one of
the major, and much repeated laments from worried lurkers was "you're
making it too complicated".

** We'd aim to help reduce the complexity.

There was broad agreement that the rule book
should not become more lengthy, as that would put off new players. If the
orders get a gloss, with strategic guidance, recognition of alternative
option, and cases where exceptions to principles might apply, then we're
going to end up with a telephone directory.

*** Yes a fair point.

Most importantly, it is important to recognise that there are already
plenty of "Beginners Guides" and sermons on advanced strategy, already out
there. They've been written, many are on the web (though too many are
rather inaccessible through being buried in old copies of Mouth of Sauron
and News from Brie). And they are independent, claiming to be the opinions
of a single writer. It is to these sources that new players should be
directed, so that they can learn, question, and ultimately decide for
themselves about "good play".

** It's getting them past that stage that I am more worried about at present.

I'd like to see Mepbm games getting some existing projects, like MEOW and
PRS up and running, tested and evaluated, rather than starting new projects
at this moment.

** We can do both and are - we've got around 6 programmers doing bits and pieces for us at present.

  But if they do have all this spare time, I think their
efforts would be better spent on creating a well organised web archive of
existing material rather than producing a subjectively rewritten rulebook.

*** Anyone else pro this?

Clint

>Yes it would be hard to get the advice level correct. We'd like to
>try. We have to do it a lot anyway when players ask us "How to Y" multiple
>times a week. Or "can you Clarify Z for me?"

But that's an argument for a FAQ document, not a new rulebook.

Not convinced. Convince me. We have that in the House rules and other locations but we still get the same questions coming up along with the odd new one. We also feel that we can re-write the rules to be better. (We've got a lot of experience with this already).

Why is it bad to have these in the rules? Telephone directory is potentially one such argument I agree but are there others?

Clint

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote: >

> But if they do have all this spare time, I think their
>efforts would be better spent on creating a well organised web
archive of
>existing material rather than producing a subjectively rewritten
rulebook.

*** Anyone else pro this?

Clint

Pro this, sure. We can now debate our opinions of what
a "well organized web site" means, as Bobbin's is quite
well organized. Mind you, I find many of the old MoS
articles simply don't apply to the game today. When I
started, I read just about everything on Bobbin's site
and the gamesystems site (it's still there with lots
of interesting articles) and very quickly realized that
many are extremely outdated (antiquated?). NOW...we
have to update them too...? Egads.

Mind you, I have no problem clarifying much of the rule
book also. I found it to be a fascinating read that
had very little to do with playing the game. Maybe,
as those articles, it's excellent to get going in a ME
with unknown artifact powers, truly hidden pops, and the
odd amazingly exciting thing called an "encounter"! That
gives you a choice of responses! Golly!

:wink:

Brad

···

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Its not like you'd have to throw away your old book and buy a new one..

"Laurence G. Tilley" wrote:

···

At 01:29 23/10/2002, Clint wrote:
>Yes it would be hard to get the advice level correct. We'd like to
>try. We have to do it a lot anyway when players ask us "How to Y" multiple
>times a week. Or "can you Clarify Z for me?"

But that's an argument for a FAQ document, not a new rulebook.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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I refer you back to my previous posts. The principle one is that a rulebook needs to be functional and objective. Once you start mingling advice with a plain description of what the rules do, they become subjective, a matter of opinion. That reduces the game, because it takes away some of the art of strategy. A newish player is no longer invited to read around the rulebook, and weigh the opinions of his more experienced team mates, because he's spoon fed, and he's spoon fed just one "official" line about how to use a particular order.

I can see an argument for minor changes - such as, a note to point out that it is possible to buy oneself into bankruptcy. But apart from a few things like this, most of what you seem to imply would be more suitable for a FAQ or "Hints & Tips" document. By all means send it out to new players in a ring binder, if you feel you must.

As for you getting questions even about stuff you've put in the House Rules, I'm guessing that you also get a lot of questions about stuff that's already fairly clear in the rule book. That's because when people are learning, they often prefer to take short cuts (ask someone) rather than read and reread long documents. BUT you will get less questions if you produce well indexed guidance - such as a clear FAQ.

There is also an issue around the extent to which you, as a company, should produce or rubber stamp assertions as to the "correct" use of an order. If I ask you to start revealing some of the core algorithms of the program, you will (up till now) have refused. The standard GAD, Allsorts, Harlequin response has always been "we can't reveal... you'll have to find out by playing the game". Last time my muckers and I got this response was when we asked if it is easier for a hostage to escape from a character than from a pop. And this is why in the old days, the cunning always used to send the question to GSI as well, and then compare the two answers. All of a sudden, you are prepared to tell the newbies what rank one has to be to attempt an assassination? This information is the Holy Grail of we longbeards who like to pick through the rulebook, and proclaim our inspired interpretations like great theologians! And if you give us the Holy Grail, there will be no need for the quest. Now if you're going to say to me "we're only going to give general guidance" about when to assassinate, I'd still object. The rulebook already gives it - it is a "hard" order. And it has always been for the players, not the GMs, to interpret that.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 02:26 23/10/2002, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

> >Yes it would be hard to get the advice level correct. We'd like to
> >try. We have to do it a lot anyway when players ask us "How to Y" multiple
> >times a week. Or "can you Clarify Z for me?"
>
>But that's an argument for a FAQ document, not a new rulebook.

Not convinced. Convince me. We have that in the House rules and other
locations but we still get the same questions coming up along with the odd
new one. We also feel that we can re-write the rules to be better. (We've
got a lot of experience with this already).

Why is it bad to have these in the rules? Telephone directory is
potentially one such argument I agree but are there others?

Not convinced. Convince me. We have that in the House rules
and other
locations but we still get the same questions coming up along
with the odd
new one. We also feel that we can re-write the rules to be
better. (We've
got a lot of experience with this already).

Why is it bad to have these in the rules? Telephone directory is
potentially one such argument I agree but are there others?

Clint

What about just an example of each order? (Or a couple examples for the
more complicated ones.) I think perhaps just better explanations and an
example or two for each order might go a long way toward heading off the
rules questions.

Mike Mulka

For what it's worth, I believe that the rules need some major revisions (in
the way they are written) and clarifications. Several are misleading,
unclear, or uninformative.

Inclusion of strategy or more information would really help new players,
although I agree that brevity is required, otherwise few will bother to read
them.

As an example: Reveal Pop Center

There are actually two actions that occur with this order. The first is to
determine whether there is a hidden pop at the hex specified. The success of
this action appears to be based on casting rank as modified by artifacts.
The second action is to actually "unhide" the pop and appears to be based on
straight mage rank without the aid of artifacts. Thus, the player may get
the message that hex xxxx has been revealed as a hidden pop, but in reality
the pop is still hidden. In other words, the order failed since (most of the
time anyway) you already knew there was a hidden pop present and you wanted
it unhidden. The rule is not very clear on this at all and I have seen even
experienced players who have never used the spell ask "what happened?"

Another example:
There is no sample naval combat, although there is one for armies and
personal challenge. I have been playing MEPBM for over ten years and I
recently asked a question of teammates in preparation for a new game: "Does
morale and/or terrain/climate play a role in combat calc for naval battles
or is it just command rank? Is command rank the full modifier or is it given
just 25% or 33% weight?"
The answer to this question has a rather large impact on naval battles and
strategy of those using fleets. The rulebook does not mention anything
beyond command rank and there is no sample combat.Nobody knew the answer and
we probably have well over 200 games under our belts as a group.

Several concepts which are needed for successful and rewarding play are
either missing from or just glossed over in the rulebook. If a new player
gets pasted early in a game, he is unlikely to play again. Things like camp
limits, attention to one's economy and season changes, looking two or three
turns ahead, and teamwork should be stressed for the new players especially.

So, Harly could just try and rewrite the rules for clarity and then try a
separate "strategy guide & FAQ" or they could try an all-in-one deal.
Another possiblity could be to include limited strategy discussion on key
orders or game processes, with a separate more lenthy book or series of
articles.

I think a key factor is the ease with which a player can find required info
(ie index or table of contents). Poorly motivated players won't pursue a
topic if it takes too long to find it. Also, length or too much detail will
discourage some players, so brevity AND clarity are both important.
Personally, I find information in tabular form to be both concise and
informative and I think this should be used as often as possible. It is
underemployed at present and could be better organized.

As a final comment I would like to mention that the original game designers
DELIBERATELY made the rulebook vague in places so that the players would
have to try to explore the nuances of the game. This is in spirit with the
encounters and riddles. Originally, maps of all known pops and specific info
on riddles, arties, and dragons were not available. In my first game (#22),
I blundered around for several turns before teammates started sending me
info. If I hadn't gotten this info, I doubt I would have played another
game. I believe it makes for a much better gaming experience if all the
players in the game start with equal knowledge. Knowledge of how to USE the
rules strategically is gained by playing, but the rules themselves should be
clear and fair to everyone.

Tom MacCabe

But if I was reading the above as a new player going through the rule book for the first time, it would make my brain pop. I'd still be asking questions - like 'But _how_ would I already know there was a hidden pop present?' - and would no doubt be throwing the rulebook in the bin and going off for a game of noughts and crosses.

This, and the other examples you give are fine for a "Commentary on the Rulebook" or "Expanded rules supplement" for advancing and advanced players, but if you throw all that at the newbies, they'll run a mile.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 12:58 23/10/2002, Tom MacCabe wrote:

As an example: Reveal Pop Center

There are actually two actions that occur with this order. The first is to
determine whether there is a hidden pop at the hex specified. The success of
this action appears to be based on casting rank as modified by artifacts.
The second action is to actually "unhide" the pop and appears to be based on
straight mage rank without the aid of artifacts. Thus, the player may get
the message that hex xxxx has been revealed as a hidden pop, but in reality
the pop is still hidden. In other words, the order failed since (most of the
time anyway) you already knew there was a hidden pop present and you wanted
it unhidden. The rule is not very clear on this at all and I have seen even
experienced players who have never used the spell ask "what happened?"

I refer you back to my previous posts. The principle one is that a
rulebook needs to be functional and objective. Once you start mingling
advice with a plain description of what the rules do, they become
subjective, a matter of opinion. That reduces the game, because it takes
away some of the art of strategy. A newish player is no longer invited to
read around the rulebook, and weigh the opinions of his more experienced
team mates, because he's spoon fed, and he's spoon fed just one "official"
line about how to use a particular order.

*** It would be an amalgam of advices. Note when a player joins a game he gets the unofficial advice. Clearly some of that is better than what we can offer, but sometimes we do know what we're on about... :slight_smile:

By all means send it out to new players in a
ring binder, if you feel you must.

*** Not must but I do think it might be a good idea to help keep newbies in the game and help out some of the moderate to experienced players out there.

As for you getting questions even about stuff you've put in the House
Rules, I'm guessing that you also get a lot of questions about stuff that's
already fairly clear in the rule book. That's because when people are
learning, they often prefer to take short cuts (ask someone) rather than
read and reread long documents. BUT you will get less questions if you
produce well indexed guidance - such as a clear FAQ.

*** I'm not convinced of that, but my faith in human nature might not be as strong as yours Laurence.

There is also an issue around the extent to which you, as a company, should
produce or rubber stamp assertions as to the "correct" use of an order. If
I ask you to start revealing some of the core algorithms of the program,
you will (up till now) have refused.

*** Not strictly the case - sometimes I have given my player opinion and also the official viewpoint. If we don't know we ask GSI (less often now as we know a lot more than before about the game). Some stuff is very much to be discovered in the course of play though.

Clint

*** That's also part of the plan. EG with an 860 order we would have a start and end location for some orders showing which were possible and which weren't. I'd hope to cross-reference pertinent orders/sections that the players might want to check out as well. Eg PC feeding armies, food in baggage train etc.

Clint

···

At 09:39 23/10/02, you wrote:

>Not convinced. Convince me. We have that in the House rules
>and other
>locations but we still get the same questions coming up along
>with the odd
>new one. We also feel that we can re-write the rules to be
>better. (We've
>got a lot of experience with this already).
>
>Why is it bad to have these in the rules? Telephone directory is
>potentially one such argument I agree but are there others?
>
>Clint

What about just an example of each order? (Or a couple examples for the
more complicated ones.) I think perhaps just better explanations and an
example or two for each order might go a long way toward heading off the
rules questions.

But if I was reading the above as a new player going through the rule book
for the first time, it would make my brain pop. I'd still be asking
questions - like 'But _how_ would I already know there was a hidden pop
present?' - and would no doubt be throwing the rulebook in the bin and
going off for a game of noughts and crosses.

** Yes - we've done the Bofa rules for very new players. I am interested in how we could warn players off complex orders? I suggested to Sam a star rating of complexity/usability (or read these 1st) but he wasn't a big fan.

Clint