it is common practice to have low ranking agents training by stealing gold at allied pop centres. There may be occasions when stealing is not an option, though. So I thought about sabotaging the stores instead, which gives the same skill increase. Now my question: can stores with an amount of 0 be sabotaged in the same way as gold can (not) be stolen when the reserve is 0 and still give the skill increase? So you could sabotage mi stores on a plains camp with skill increase and no harm done? Any experiences here?
If a population center produces a product, then you can sabotage it for ranks, even if the stores are empty. If the stores are empty and the population center does not make that item, then you will not get ranks.
This is not necessarily true. I have had results where stores were known to be produced but was unable to sabotage them because they were not present and received no skill increase.
Originally posted by bradjenison This is not necessarily true. I have had results where stores were known to be produced but was unable to sabotage them because they were not present and received no skill increase.
Since Production = Stores at about 300 (or so, yes…?) then how could it not be present at the SabStores order (680??) You can sell them at 320/325, no?
My point exactly. The fact that a population center produces a product every turn does not mean it will be there when the time to sabotage stores comes up.
As you said Sabotage Stores is order 680. Production is received at step 4 of the sequence of events, while agent orders are at step 10. In between there have been several opportunities to have removed those stores. Order 340 removes stores from being available to be sabotaged. Order 320 liquidates stores and the gold goes to the capital. Order 325 does the same thing. Finally order 500 can result in a failed mission as can order 605.
The 300 series orders can be done both at the target hex and from the capital. In both cases the 300 series orders can be done in reaction to a character report from your population center. Removing the stores most likely to hurt your nation from loss due to sabotage, might mean there are stores of a different product there but the saboteur has to select a single type of stores to sabotage, so the defender can minimize his risk. Having security on hand or decent loyalty means that the saboteur faces death or injury in trying to accomplish his mission. Finally doubling the saboteur would result in a failed mission as well with a resulting excuse of Um I couldn’t find any steel to sabotage, the store houses were empty. Most of these results except for the security ones will result in no stores to sabotage and thus no skill increase.
Sorry Brad, I was being presumptuous: I presumed when you said you knew the pop produced said store, and that you knew this because it was an allied pop. Thus, none of the possible reasons you’ve listed for failure would apply, would they?
Considering this order is very specific task oriented. Think of it, either you’re using it at an allies camp to train, or you’re hoping to disrupt enemy strategy by sabotaging timber or mounts at a suspected collection centre.
I can’t think of any other useful reason for this order, frankly, and even those reasons are pretty feeble. One won’t stockpile timber at 2924 until the turn before they build the bridge. Both the transport and contruction happen inbetween successive 680’s, so it’s, frankly, useless to attempt to destroy timber except while wandering through producing pops, meagre returns that kind of plan… Sabotaging mounts might be handy on occasion. Find 2342 mounts at 4133 and it might be a worthwhile afterthought order. Don’t know many would would pass up the opportunity to steal in order to sab stores, though.
Anyone use this order, besides as a training vehicle, regularly?
Originally posted by Player
[b]Sorry Brad, I was being presumptuous: I presumed when you said you knew the pop produced said store, and that you knew this because it was an allied pop. Thus, none of the possible reasons you’ve listed for failure would apply, would they?
Almost, the population centers had at one time belonged to an ally but was currently in enemy hands. Thus we knew the products produced in the hex. We also knew that this particular opponent was doing his best to run a zero balance economy. The agents in question were on their way to the battle front and stopped over looking for opportunities to either do someone in or to sabotage for the skill increase to improve their chances against better targets in the upcoming turns.
Considering this order is very specific task oriented. Think of it, either you’re using it at an allies camp to train, or you’re hoping to disrupt enemy strategy by sabotaging timber or mounts at a suspected collection centre.
I agree that this is not an assured training method or even a terribly disruptive one unless you somehow sabotage significant stores at the location. It is full of opportunities to fail as you may go for the wrong product and miss an opportunity as another product may be there. We had ScoChar on the way in, knew no one was there to kill/kidnap, and took the chance. We did this at two different population centers and were successful at one.
I can’t think of any other useful reason for this order, frankly, and even those reasons are pretty feeble. One won’t stockpile timber at 2924 until the turn before they build the bridge. Both the transport and contruction happen inbetween successive 680’s, so it’s, frankly, useless to attempt to destroy timber except while wandering through producing pops, meagre returns that kind of plan… Sabotaging mounts might be handy on occasion. Find 2342 mounts at 4133 and it might be a worthwhile afterthought order. Don’t know many would would pass up the opportunity to steal in order to sab stores, though.
A point made by our rules lawyer in that game as well:-)
It was a temporary opportunity to train while on the way to the front and not something we did habitually. My point originally was that just because a product is produced at the hex, you will not get skill increases for sabotage. You only get it if you do sabotage something that is stored there.
Brad
Anyone use this order, besides as a training vehicle, regularly? [/b]
My point originally was that just because a product is produced at the hex, you will not get skill increases for sabotage. You only get it if you do sabotage something that is stored there.
Well, based on your results (1/2 the time…) and considering the high probability of 325ing away the production, this isn’t so clear: IF there is stores of the specified product at the time of the order (680) THEN the attempt is made. IF there are NO STORES of the specified product at the time of the order THEN no attempt is made. IF there ARE stores of the type but the agent report claims there are not (NO ATTEMPT) then one must presume the agent is a double agent reporting to the target nation. This third possibility is quite testable, if you’re bored, as doubling one’s allies is a very common occurance…
Spoken like a true rules lawyer. There are lots of caveats in my discription of events. We were going into population centers that we had lost and thus knew the production types for the hexes. We were stealing gold or attempting to leading up to that turn and finding none. Since the targeted pops had been seized from us by the enemy the loyalties were probably not that good and they may not have reported suspicious individuals to the Oppressors. This lack of reporting would have made it less likely that products were sold or transported as the threat was not recognized. As you say it is not an often used strategy and we may have done the unexpected. Having companies we were able to attempt sabotage on more than one store of product at each of the population centers we were at. Still at one population center all attempts failed and the other was only partially successful.
I gues what I am getting at is that this is not as effective as stealing gold or even guarding characters unless you are lucky. My main point is that Joseph Hanik is not correct. If the product is not there you will not get agent skill rank increases as you failed in your mission to sabotage because the target escaped you.
Brad’s right – nothing in the stores, no sabotage and no skill increase. It’s not like an empty treasury.
It is a reasonable training vehicle when at an allied pc since, unlike gold theft, it has a predictable impact on the economy.
And no, I haven’t seen it used for much other than training, but it could be. The vast majority of players do their market buyouts from their capitals, and a good number of those follow a regular cycle. In one of my games, the enemy just stole 2K at a capital when they could have done 20K of damage by sabotage – we’d been buying the same product every other turn for ten turns. If sabotage were common, our predictable ways would hurt us!
