Clint,
Would you be willing to publish a sample navy combat algorithm?
In the meantime does anyone have a sample navy combat algorith to offer?
The results of navy combat have been strange and confusing. The rulebook says merely that navy strength is modified by commander, nation, tactics, artifacts and spells. Look at the situation below and see if you can explain how these few factors could modify navy strength in such a way that the two navies below would mutually destroy one another.
26 Harad warships + 13 transports, with a 20-ish comm, ST tactics, no spells or artifacts, were able to defeat (and be simulateously defeated by) 32 warships, 26 transports under South Gondors’ flag, led by a 50-ish comm, using hit & run, also without artifacts or spells.
SG
STR: 186=32x5+26
CON: 174 (58 ships x 3)
Harad
STR: 143=26x5+13
CON: 117 (39ships x 3)
You’ve asked for Commander, Nation, Tactics, Artifacts, and Spells.
Nation is above, as in the rules, Warship Strength.
How did Harad’s 143 strength increase using the other factors such that it was able to overcome 174 constitution, is your question.
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What are the % ranges for Tactics in Naval Combat? If regular forces can have their Tactic modified +/- in the 10% range, I’ve heard that can be considered Double for Naval combat… And, based on my limited understanding, War ships are a little too large and unwieldy for Hit and Run to be expected to be effective. Light Cavalry uses hit and run as they can run it, stab stab stab, and alight out quickly, turn on a dime, and do it again…warships are likely more akin to HC. I think you lost on the tactics there…
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How do you know there are no artifacts? Niether commander is on a horse galloping crazily through the enemy ranks, they’re presumably on one of the ships flying their personal emblem…you have no idea what artifacts they’re carrying.
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Do spells show up on Naval Combat reports? Or, upon consideration, do ALL spells…? I could see Summon Storms someone making its way onto a description, for example… AND, unless the physical manifestation of the other player’s spell can be accurately described in Naval combat, you won’t know…because AGAIN, you won’t see “Shabla sitting off on the side gesturing wildly to Orion…” in your report - she’s on a ship somewhere, you have no idea she’s there…
Considering a mere 20% increase on 143’s strength gives him 171, an artifact can add 2-5 while a spell can add 1-3, he can add up to 179 quite reasonably (low odds, but not impossible…) without even taking into consideration any possible Reductions of SG’s Constitution based on any of these factors (I’m thinking Tactics…? But I don’t believe the Constitutions get reduced…).
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be pretty pissed myself. And that’s not false sympathy…I’ve done it and suffered it on teams numerous times… I don’t expect the combat algorithm to be produced. I expect the best official response would be “discovered in the course of play, I’m afraid.”, which is a very common response from the company…
And finallly, if you want to ask them a specific question like this, you’ll get the best results emailing them directly at: me@middleearthgames.com and providing your name and account number. Again, this is experience talking…
Good Luck
Brad
Christian,
I would be willing to bet that Relations towards an enemy has a similar impactas it does in army combat. If you figure in a 25% increase in combat value off of Player’s attack strength for Harad given hated relations, you get a value of 178+ which is enough to take out the entire SG fleet without the assistance of any weapons, spells, tactics or other influences. It has been my experience that naval combat is always very very bloody, which is probably why most naval nations sail 1 transport with 100 troops and their entire warship armada around their pop centers to protect against naval attack without risking troops or transports.
Just something to consider,.
Frighftultales
I would think an algorithm should be published, just like is done with armies. I also do not think the combat should work as described.
Everyone is assuming that warships hit for 5, and the strength only goes up from there. Have any of you actually had HI with a stick hit for 11? Never. The factors in the army algorithm actually reduce the hit power of the army, unless you have 100 morale, commander, training, etc. I always assumed the same held true for navy combats. I also must admit that my navy combat predictions are not correct.
The fighting algorithms for armies and challenges are well documented. I do not see why navies should be any different.
Joe
Originally posted by Joseph Hanik
[b]The fighting algorithms for armies and challenges are well documented. I do not see why navies should be any different.
Joe [/b]
I agree. So why haven’t they to this point…? Irrespective of moral high horses, there is a reason, and there can only be, in my mind, one of 2 possibilities:
- DITCOP
- “Hey, no problem, we’ve never been asked! Here you go!”
Which, after careful consideration, is most likely?
I sent a message to the company asking what they would be able to tell me, and this is their reply:
“*** Sorry what is out there is all that is available.”
and
“*** Sorry can’t help out - don’t know it myself! :-)”
There you go. And thanks Chris…oops…Frightful Tales…I totally forgot about Relations…between that and tactics, that answers the question in it’s entirety…no?
Cheers,
Brad
Thank you for the responses!
My apologies because I made a typo–that was 16 transports not 26 transports fro South Gondor. But that doesn’t demystify this. Read on.
Harad is actually on my side and I read his pdf so here are the details fro Harad…
Relations=disliked (sorry, forgot to include that earlier)
no artifacts
no spells
Standard tactics vs Hit & Run
Commander=20
26 warships @ 5 str each
13 transports @ 1 str each
South Gondor had 32 Warships and 16! Transports
As Rhugga Player correctly calculated, Harad had a base str. of 143, and South Gondor actually had a con of 144 (48 ships*3–sorry about that).
If commander level were not a factor then it is easy to see how Harad could have wiped out SG’s navy but where does comm level fit in? If we were to multiply base str. by comm level, similar to what is done in army combat, then Harad would have had his strength modified down to 29!! (Comm=20, 20% of 143=29).
Obviously commander level does not play such a significant role because the only other factors were relations (+10%) and tactics +??% (I’m guessing not more than +10% on a ST vs Hit and Run). Therefore the str. of the Harad navy, after being modified for Commander level must have been close to its original base strength of 143. But who knows how this works?
Perhaps if some data were collected we could figure this out. With all the other data available on the game, all the hypothetical formulas on how this or that order works, I’m surprised by the paucity of information on something as basic as navy combat. Whoever decided to gloss over the navy combat rules in the rule book should be shot.
I think I’ll start collecting data. Feel free to post any navy combat results and related details here. The more info. the better.
Thanks all,
Christian
Well, Com rank in regular army combat is one of 4 modifiers who average out…so 1 com skill = .25%, not 1%… Since other modifiers involved in Land combat aren’t present in Naval combat, I’m certain it uses each differently…
I personally expect that the key areas of concern would be exactly how the Com rank and Tactics are used/calculated. As was mentioned above, naval combat is usually very very bloody. If you’re involved and it isn’t an obvious washout, you’re likely feeding the fish. Get’s difficult to collect/compile and attempt formulas when so many people simply die. The relative scarcity of surviving navys (compared to the vast number of daily army combats…) is likely the reason for the lack of backed up theorys.
Brad
