Serious 4th Age Fault

Yeah a rather large gap wouldn’t you say Rob ?

I dont mind losing a game fair and square but when you go and change the
code just so that a game ends when the opposition have reached Victory
Conditions (which to be fair aren’t mentioned in the rules as being
disallowed) you create a large amount of bad will amongst players.

We paid extra for the Special Set-Up and paid for 7 turns in good faith only
to be told that the rules we are playing with are wrong and misses out vital
information. How am I, or anyone else for that matter expected to accept
that ?

All things considered ‘we’ are not amused!

Thomas Crane

> Hi All,
> A situation occured today in a game which has shown us a gap in the 4th
age rules.
> The strategic pop centre win can only occur on or after turn 12, this is
not mentioned in the current rules but will be mentioned in any future
rulebooks.
> Thanks
> Rob
>
>
> Middle Earth Games Ltd

Note this is for future games and for games still running at present. For the game you are talking about unfortunately you guys lost due to the SS victory happening before turn 12. We’re unhappy about it as well hence the clarification to the rules.

For clarification: we didn’t change the code. The code was in error and the rules were implemented - Victory condition C as per the rulebook on Page 5. I’ve asked the opposition if they want to continue. If this had happened after turn 12 then you’d be in exactly the same situation though all we did was clarify to everyone what the situation is. You guys weren’t aware (or all your emails to me have been that you didn’t think the Strategic site victory conditions were in this game).

Though I understand your concern I think what we did was fair and above board. Sorry guys I know it’s hard on you all.

Clint

This sort of reminds me when Harley took over the American operation, including the then current running games. In the game I was in, Harley filled all the DS vacancies (including at least one we had an emissary message saying it had collapsed) without telling the FP they were doing that. Absolutely contrary to the American practice. It was mighty disconcerting to have ‘dead’ nations arise to life behind you.

Before Someone says it is the House Rules, we didn’t get a copy of those from either Harley or the folks in Oregon. It has put me off me feed with Harley ever since.

5 years ago right Ed? :smiley: Not one to hold a grudge myself but apologies (again I might add) for any confusion that the take-over caused. Ideally everything would have been perfect. I’m not sure your comment can be verified (we’ve not kept out emails from that period) but I think that’s by the by.

I’d say without the takeover the US game would not exist at present though so it’s not all bad news. (When GSI sold the game to DGE, note their choice there, they were losing upto 25% players per year due to, IMO and Stu’s who was working for them, policy decisions they were making). The UK/Europe (run by us) franchise was increasing in players and games (from 17 to 25) the US (run by DGE and GSI) was declining (from 30 down to 25).

All companies run things not perfectly, GSI didn’t run it prefectly, nor did DGE, nor Allsorts - mistakes happen. It’s even been rumoured we make the odd mistake (cough) :wink: One thing we try to do is fix it if it does come up - something that was specifically against GSI’s policy I might add. As it is we’re the most experienced PB(e)M firm at doing such takeovers but even now mistakes occur despite many years, experience and talent at such things.

I don’t quite understand why you take any (and every) opportunity to attack us? I understand that you do have issues with us, but it seems that every time anyone has a problem you like to jump on the bandwagon. You just appear to post to be divisive and I don’t understand with what aim. If you just enjoy complaining that’s fine with me (I like a good whinge myself from time to time) or you miss “the good olde days” then that’s fine as well. But if you want to be productive that would be more helpful to myself and the players as a whole.

If it would change things I would offer the game you want if there were players to play it but there aren’t. You asked for a game with no contacts and “diplos” to be sent out the players but we had no take up in it, for example.

As it is we offer the game that we think (and have feedback on) that players want and are attempting to improve the game (I understand you don’t want us to “meddle” but the majority do want improvements and as a decent businessman I think it wise to go with them but also provide the same service and old game format that some of our players like. Ie I try to support all of the players.

I’m presently discussing the issue that was actually raised (and not a red herring) with the teams concerned and will feedback to them as best I can with what assistance I can offer. It helps if others don’t throw spanners into the works as clearly tempers are raised and the emotional push that such emails as your provide often aggravate the situation and make a solution harder to come by.

One of the GMs before had an adage which we took on board. Have fun, and help make it fun for others.

Have an excellent day and apologies for the long post.

Clint

I posted to the MEPBM list, so I am not sure how much to post here as it creates two discussion lines.

My main question for Thomas was in response to a comment that they weren’t aware the Strategic Site victory rule was in effect for the game. Here was my response:

"To be devil’s advocate, I assumed that a Fourth Age
game, grudge or not, permitted a strategic site
victory. Was there a basis for the assumption that
because it was a grudge game, that certain FA rules
did or did not apply? Is it an assumed by the playing
community that any strategic victory is unable to
occur before turn 12?

My own answer to the last question is no. I’m fairly
recent to FA (say 6 games under my belt), but I do
know when I played with some very experienced FA
players, and it was turn 8 or so, we became very
concerned about the opposition gaining a strategic
site victory. Never was it mentioned anything by
those players about turn minimums.

JB"

I am interested to hear the perspective of guys who play FA often as I was never aware of a 12 turn minumum for SS victory. In fact, I think that is the point - the rules never had a minimum turn length as stated, and so as far as the rules went, it was allowable. Since players dont have access to code, all we can play by is the rules. Code did not reflect rules, so it has been updated.

As a member of the team that suffered from this rule in game 42, my opinion is , of course, biased.
To my understanding, in FA Grudge games the strategic victory was generally ruled out. This was the case in games 47, 48, 140 and two games of the number 144. This is not written down anywhere but it seemed to me a general agreement. Obviously, in game 42, one side had taken that agreement for common law, while the other had not and cared to read the “small-print”. We and our opponents were, as one of my team put it, practically playing two different games.
I don’t want to put blame on anybody ATM, I just think that such things should not happen, because it leaves too many people frustrated. I spent money on the setup and seven turns and feel thats a complete waste.
I hope we get this sorted out, as I can’t imagine our opponents are proud of that kind of victory.

Apologies, I should have noted I was on the winning side of G42, I was the White Foxes (Bernd, who are you?). Like I said, I play FA some but not a lot, but when I joined the grudge team I certainly had not “forgotten” about a general agreement that there could be no SS victory because I was never aware of it. That could be my fault, but I assumed FA grudge didn’t have different rules beyond the setup (like grudge 1650 or WOTR). I am curious as to how others view this, I do not rule out me simply being misinformed, but note also I do not speak for my team only myself.

Oh, and that sickness squad was quite annoying

Well I had never expected anyone to go for the Strategic Victory in a Grudge Game. Its always been an unwritten rule in the games I have played that its not a viable victory, whether it’s because you expect a hard fought more military style game or whether its because one sides starts with most of them I am not sure.

On the matter of the turn it happened on, I play FA a lot and it seemed to me that no one went for it until around turn 15-20 when Alliances had become set in stone and as such it seemed to make sense since alliances aren’t set in stone until turn 13.

There was one game in which the Two Kingdoms joined together and persuaded the other Neutrals to stay Neutral (about 7 of us) and I am positive at the start Clint only allowed it because we weren’t allowed to go for the Strategic Victory as a side (We couldn’t give them to a Neutral Ally) Not sure what relevance it has here but felt it was worth mentioning.

Thomas

OK. it seems that the more I play, grudge matches seem to have the most difficulties between teams. Whether it is how to decide when a team has won (i.e 2:1 surviving nation ratio, or other methods to avoid a bug hunt), or the preset agreed upon rules going in. My WC team always gets agreement on end game rules when we play. Don’t get me wrong, I have much empathy because I just as easily could have been on the other side (although I wouldnt have been as mad because I was unaware of the “unwritten rule”), it seems wise that for the future for all grudge games these issues are made written and agreed upon. Unwritten for one is easily unknown for the other.

I should probably shut up now and let others chime in

“Its always been an unwritten rule in the games I have played that its not a viable victory.”

For many players it is. But not all. As a player I keep an eye out for it but usually won’t go for it. Like the One Ring victory (1650/2950) many players don’t see it as a proper win but it is an option.

"To my understanding, in FA Grudge games the strategic victory was generally ruled out. "

Generally not (from my records). It’s probably something that the players assume to be the case. Similar things occur with the Kingdom Recons - they are part of the game as normal, unless teams specifically ask for them not to be. There’s lots more examples - my advice read the house rules and for any new format you join read the rules of that format. They usually cover most of the situations that could develop. (GB 1000 is now upto 3 pages long for example and is somewhat different to the GB 1650/2950 set-up and play).

Clint

Clint, an apology for a perceived non-event is no apology.

You are a fix-it man. Can you assure the membership there will be no future cases of games changing in mid-game without notice?

You’re asking for a promise that he can’t make. No one can promise that nothing will ever happen again, it is inevitable that errors occur - human nature and all that. You can ask for some sort of refund policy in the case of errors or the like, but you can’t ask a person to never make a mistake again and expect the promise to be anything more than words.

Who hear worships Clint? Anyone? Its ok to admit it, raise your hand.
Since he is god like and perfect I guess it should be ok, Right?

For the rest of you to wich live in the rhelm of normal reality and don’t believe he is some kind of supreme deity, congratulations.

I don’t know what planet your from Ed, but you sure have a very pesemistic and skewed view of how life should work. If you don’t like the game quit.
If you think life should be perfect, shoot yourself and go to heaven.

errr… I dont worship clint, he and I certainly have disagreed in the past. I simply think it unrealistic to expect perfection from any person or company. That’s why warranties, refunds, returns, etc all exist. Auto recalls, etc. I don’t need to go on

What a mess.
I’m not in this game, but my belief is that the best way to deal with these things is to have robust explanation of victory conditions & end-game conditions up-front. There’s a huge need for this in GB. We’ve learned this the hard way and as such are much more explicit in defining end-game conditions on GB games now days. Every game should run under the combination of:

a. rulebook
b. house rules (clarifications of things missing from rulebook)
c. game-specific written rules (comes out with each turn report in the email)

c supercedes b & a in case of a conflict.
b supercedes a in case of a conflict

Please note that “unwritten rules” are nowhere on the list. how could unwritten rules be on the list? If it’s unwritten, it can’t be enforced. If it’s unwritten, it can mean different things to different people. If it’s unwritten, it can’t be assured to be known by all players, etc. The argument in favor of unwritten rules is specious.

True, the one-ring victory in 1650, and the strategic site victory in FA are the less-travelled road. And I can certainly see an argument for a grudge FA not having the SS vc. but if it’s not explicitly removed by b. or c. above, then you have to believe it’s still in there.

bottom line on this sad situation is that both teams lose. The team that was playing for a SS victory and achieved it now has a hollow victory because they know that their enemy was truly not working to prevent a SS victory.

Indeed, Sarge, I am not tightly wraped.

Ed - it’s a fluid world so I can’t forsee the future. Generally we have a set of rules and house rules and then specific game format rules (eg Gunboat) that cover every situation that we can think of. They’ve been put together under lots of feedback from players and our own experience both as moderators and players of the game. We update them when new situations develop as best we can but if players don’t like them they are always welcome to feedback and we very often take that feedback on board and implement it.

I think they cover everything, but about once every couple of years something comes up. Some of it is due to players not understanding the situation - for example we had a player not be very happy in a game due to not understanding that he was unable to move fed when he had a 2,000 infantry army with one food in it for example (clearly they had a food so clearly they could move was his thoughts there). I’d say the SS victory is an example of something similar (not identical) to that - the players assumed that something wasn’t in the game but it was, it could have been removed as Dave H comments, but it wasn’t so we had to stick to the rules of the game and not interfere.

However, as you are a proponent of the hidden aspect of the game (me too to a certain extent) things will occur that some players don’t perceive and then be annoyed when it bites them. I just came across something like it in a Grudge game - a navy got past my blocking navy and I thought hard and long on that one before working it out - others might have seen that as the opposition having cheated but it took a while to sort out the what, the where and the why of it from my part.

So the game advances and the rules to cover each situation as they come up. Culurally there is a big difference - before the US/UK Merger the House rules were 2 pages long (or similar), now they’re 16 pages long so players see things differently and appreciate the rules in different ways all over the world. That’s fine with me.

BUT, and there’s a big but, somethings come out of the blue and we have to deal with it - that’s what I do - deal with the less than 1% of situations and turns that go off-track in some way. We don’t know what it is or how or where it will come from. So one example of this was the Hurricane - lots of our players were affected by this and we were asked to delay the game a week for some people. We did that. Now it’s not in the rules (exception see below) but we did interfere there and took the humanitarian approach and let real world issues impact on the game. What would you have done?

Not sure what mid-game change we did do here? We clarified the rules for the game (something that happens) - and the players of one team were unhappy that it detrimented them - I would be unhappy in their situation too! but I think it was both the fair answer and also the correct answer. We also clarified a difference between the rulebook and the code and informed the players of that as soon as we knew. Interesting enough in all the time GSI and others run the game this never come up (that I’m aware of) so I’m happy that players are still trying new things and coming up with new tactics.

Apologies to Gary’s team and I know it’s somewhat harsh on you guys but I think everyone loses on this one and you guys most of all.

As to the apology- I’m confused I think you’re talking about the event 5 years ago. I recall the time - it was the 90+ hours work and some inexperience at that time with the interesting way that we had to learn about business outside our small island that hurt us a little there. Is that what you mean? I believe that I have apologised for any confusion that caused to everyone out there. I don’t recall the specifics of the house rules - did we send them out or not I don’t recall I think we did but I have no proof - it was hard work for a while, if players received them or not but I think that the statue of limitations might apply here. :slight_smile:

There was one big difference in the way the game was implemented (there were many but one comes to mind). The DS (mostly - applies to all of course) sometimes got into trouble and had the Special Service turns turned off to save a nation until a back-up could be given or gold transferred etc to keep a nation in the game. In the UK/Europe games that wasn’t allowed in GSI’s games it was. We allowed the games that were GSI’s/DGE’s games to finish with the US rules for this (came as a shock actually!) but any new games we didn’t allow it for example. We informed the players (the house rules were sent out and we requested, as we have many times since, that players read them).

If DGE had bought the European Franchise then the shoe would have been on the other foot and the Europeans’ would have been the ones somewhat confused. Like I said we’re not perfect but we’ve attempted to “fix it” where possible.

Often what happens is that players (as do I) assume that things are the same as before (eg in GB some players were stealing from allies - that’s not allowed in GB but with a quick clarification 99% of the players were content with that) in the older games they played in.

It’s interesting to note that I take longer to answer your attacks than ever we spend on PRS for my entire staff combined.

Hope that helps answer the question. (Note if you want a more specific answer - Section 26 of the house rules covers your, loaded once again I might add, question.)

Clint

if you dont know your product, you are selling say so.

say that at any given moment our months (or years) of hard work can end in defeat for any reason whatsoever.

It is our money we are sending to mepbm not the other way around.

thats pretty simple.

as far as promises. if you have a product that you are selling you should stand by it. If someone cant say honestly what to expect when they sell something to someone then that person shouldnt buy the product.

Fix open games while we are on the subject of problems… or wait dont allow open games anymore at all??? wait make sure a game is filled before you start it and dont fill it with patsies just to get it started.

Phlather

William

Today’s Patsy is tomorrows World Champ

Look Folks,

You guys really need to let it go! I keep reading people griping about the money that they are spending. Listen, you’ve addressed the issue to the person that might fix it, right? He has stated the company policy, right? Has been more than patient with you when I would have told you guys to stick it in your ear, hasn’t he? So, you either need to take your money and go somewhere else, or READ THE RULES AND PLAY BY THEM!!!