Should ME Games Publish the Equations?

General
#21

On an off-note.

Just a note about the randomizing the artifact list. Instead perhaps if you randomize each nation depending on how much natural lore that nation would possess. Thus at the beginning of the game the artifacts would be randomized, each nation would get the descriptions of their artifacts. Then nations like the Noldo and the Blind Sorceror would get an a large list of artifacts and what they would do (always random), the Northmen and the Fire King would get a very small list. All the other nations in between would get some amount in between. The neutrals would get a very small list like the FK and Northmen since these nations are not artifact lore inclined to start.

Not sure if I described this right. This came from my fiance. So far though it is the best way to handle a randomized artifact list, which I am not exactly for completely…though I do think it is lame the first thing that happens in every game now is the race for the ring of the wind and curifin.

Just a thought…and totally off topic…

Btw haven’t we beat up this topic enough…sorry Christian but at this point I think you have been throughly outvoted.

#22

Majority rules! You guys win.

A few parting comments…

The issue got complicated/confused along the way. Its really quite simple though. You are in my camp if you want to know straight-up what the factors invloved are and how each factor is weighted when you attempt a 498, a 615, a 500, and so on. This isn’t saying you want to know the outcome before you attempt any of the above–the random element is still there, as is the likely lack of intel about your target.

The rest of you do not want this info made available. From your comments there appear to be two (legitimate) reasons:

  1. You want to figure it out for yourselves (even though you’ll never figure it out). If you’d rather dog down the data yourself, sift and analyze it, form hypotheses about how these type of orders work, etc… then you are one of those who ant to figure it out for themselves. Fine by me if you all want to pay the game of hide-and-seek with the equations (I can play with the best of you) but I suspect that very few of you actually do this kind of involved research, and most of you probably consult secondary sources anyway which is at odds with the desire to figure it your yourself.

  2. You just want things to remain a mystery. This I think must be where the majority fall I suspect that very few really want to do all the grudge work of data-gathering, trying to fit an equation to te data, etc… Ironically, many of you seem interested if someone presents a hypothesis about how assassinations work, or watever the case may be, and many of you have visited Bobbins to research what is supposedly invloved in the ImpPop order or the Threat order. So naturally, I assumed most people wanted to know how these orders actually work but that would put you in my camp wouldn’t it?

See ya all on the game board.

Christian

#23

Not sure if I described this right. This came from my fiance. So far though it is the best way to handle a randomized artifact list, which I am not exactly for completely…though I do think it is lame the first thing that happens in every game now is the race for the ring of the wind and curifin.

I very much like the idea of a randomized list for all games. In my opinion it would accomplish several things:

  • Improve the relative worth of mages, at least in the lore seeking sense. Nations who wish to make artifact recovery a priority would have to earmark some of their resources to accomplish this task. The value of the ‘Research Artifact’ spell would increase if only in identifying which numbers apply to which artifacts. If a valuable artifact were to be found it might turn the tide of a nation’s fortunes.

  • The relative value of agents, or at least super agents, would decrease upon becoming more difficult to acheive. How many times has Din Ohtar or Ji Indur been equipped with one of the more potent agent or stealth artifacts and become well nigh unstoppable early in the game?

  • The early predictablity mentioned would become somewhat unpredictable as even the Northmen, given time and diligence, might find themselves holding a potent artifact if they set their mages to the task.

  • Artifacts themselves should be shrouded in legend and mystery and randomizing the list for all games should give their research, hunting and acquisition this flavor. The retrieval of a powerful artifact would become an uncommon event and would boost the playability and spirit of nearly every nation.

Just my two cents.

GB

#24

You forgot a very important concept. Some have figured a great deal out already - are closer to “the code” than others. Much of this knowledge came from painstaking research, intuition, experimentation, etc. These players worked hard for their knowledge and experience because that was the way it was, that was how the game was designed. Now you’re calling for the GM’s to just give it away to every tom dick and harry? Generals, CEO’s, etc are either very old or very smart in the real world, there is no acceptable standard of “fairness” outside some Orwellian hell that would “level the playing field” between the top dogs and the mailroom. Everyone starts with the same rule book, let natural selection figure out the rest.

Brad

#25

This is one reason why some older players fall under category 2) wanting things to remain a mystery, because they have gone through 1) working things out for themselves. I didn’t forget about this. See my response to Ed above concerning the issue of fairness. Ironically these older players would be complaining that its NOT FAIR to make things more fair in term of access to technical info, presumably because “I had to learn the hard way therefore you should have to learn the hard way too.” A contradiction followed by a non-sequiter. Ouch. But here’s another funny irony: these same players are so willing to share their insight into the inner workings of this fascinating game–why not tell people to go figure it out for themselves? But maybe you guys are right. Maybe it is more enjoyable to consult the gurus of MEPBM to find out what the rules REALLY are rather than to go read it in the rule book.

Brad, everyone would still have the same rule book and natural selection would still divide the goats from the sheep. The only difference would be that experienced players would have only the advantages of experience and the accumulated of wisdom thereof, rather than being “closer to the code.”

Well, this rather one-sided “debate” has been stimulating if nothing else. I’m sure I’ve peeved the lot of you with my persistence. Yes, i’ve been an argumentative pain-in-the-ass. Its not a matter of being unwilling to change my mind–when I am refuted I do change my opinion–but the arguments favor my perspective (from my persepective of course!) Doesn’t matter though. the majority has spoken and the mob is always right :rolleyes: .

To those who read me, and gave my words some consideration (Ed etc.), I do thank you.

I’ll bow out now and let someone else have the last word…unless this is the last word.

See ya guys,
Christian

#26

Guys, obviously the equations should not be published.

A couple of years back I tried my hand (badly) at a satirical article in Bree, likening developments in MEPBM (Automagic, Palantir etc) to F1 (launch control, traction control etc) and suggesting that there was a risk of eroding skill and excitement as a result.

More formulas = more number crunching = a game further favouring skill in crunching numbers. If you want to have more fun crunching numbers go study maths (or become an accountant and get paid for it).

Can anyone imagine the tedium of having a team mate tell you that strategy XYZ was “the best” because they had proved it mathematically / statistically. BORE!

Interesting thread though - thx Christian.

Cheers
Mike
(an accountant :smiley: )

#27

A view from a relative newbie. Experienced players who help/advise are great, but I am always torn between wanting to make my own mistakes or “look it up” / ask for help. If I go my own way then invariably there is an error, which lets the team down. I learn the hard way, which tends to be remembered, but the team can really suffer. (Recently I goofed and a dragon ended up in the wrong army. Almost fatal to the team!) However, I do not think any amount of formulas will ever replace a helpul experienced player, and certainty just does not exist in war. Ever hear of 18th c line infrantry repulsing 3 cavalry charges whilst in line? Guess the commander had not read the rule book that says form square or else!

What would be good (in my view) is the randomising of most artifacts powers as some peolpe have already suggested. (A Palantir will always be a palantir for instance) I also like the idea of uncertain start posistions esp of hidden towns. The justification could be the towns are in the same places, it is just the entrances that have moved. It levels the field to some extent, whilst turning mages into something a little more useful than someone to learn curses. (OK, I know I am simplifying here, but you get the gist!)

Well, that’s my 10 pennyworth!

Dave

#28

Nice last word.

Brad of the Mob
:rolleyes:

#29

I’m torn on this issue, like so many others.

This idea of “figure it out for yourself” is certainly romantic… However, it is a team game, and a team with even one lone gun out there trying to figure it out for himself, is DOOMED. If you enjoy losing, then by all means get on a team with someone that wants to figure it out for themselves.

I don’t enjoy losing.

The old timers like being able to stomp every team they come up against. They can do this, because they have the inside info. They don’t want that info out there for all to see.

In short, if it weren’t such a fast paced game (average game is what, 20 turns) where the most coordinated and knowledgeable team wins EVERY TIME, then I’d be on the side of “figure it out for yourself”.

But it is a fast paced game where the most coordinated and knowledgeable team winse EVERY TIME.

No one is suggesting removing the fog of war or the randomness of the game. Just some more info on the formulas used.

For example. Let’s say the formula for an assassin getting stopped by a pop militia is pop loyalty - agent rank + 10 per level of fortification +/- relations. ( I have NO IDEA if that is even close).

Well, after 13 years of playing the game, someone would have a general sense that a starting MT with a Fort will never stop his 100 agent, but will stop a 60 agent over half the time. The newbie will send his agents into enemy pops, while the experienced player uses his 60 agents to clean up the battle field after winning in combat.

The expereinced player wins… Not because he is better, but because he has been around longer and figured things out on his own.

The figure it out on your own worked great when the game was new and NO ONE knew anything. You had a chance of not getting eaten alive in 5 turns. Noe, the game is over a dozen years old, and some people have been playing since the start. They will eat any new player for lunch!!! Old timers, put yoursleves into the shoes of the newbies. It may have been fun stumbling around in the dark when EVERYONE was a newbie. Not so much fun stumbling around in the dark when most of the players have 6-8-10-12 years of experience and are stomping you like a bug befire you have a chance to figure out anything. You team is angry, your enemy is laughing and rubbing it in your face.

I see no harm in publishing general guidelines on more of the formulas… For example, Clint could release the general formula for a pop stopping an agent, but not tell you exactly how much the relations bonus/penalty is. Then, a newbie would know that his A60 isn’t going to kill anyone in an enemy City/Citidel.

Right now, MEPBM isn’t a fair fight to any newbie. I’m surprised any newbie bothers to play a second time after getting yelled at by teammates and then stomped into the ground by old-timers.

#30

Christian,

To some degree, I agree with you.

First, my disclaimers: I’ve played in six games, which puts me more informed than a newbie but by no means a fully skilled player. I prefer Freeps, have played DS, and have never played a true neutral. I’ve also never been on a winning team (boo hoo, wipes the tear away from his eye).

My agreement with your statement comes because I think I DO undestand what you are saying. However, I believe you asked the wrong question. I don not think you mean to ask whenter the “equations” should be published. Perhaps instead you would consider asking for a better, more comprehensive rule book. The ones that we currently get are not clear, sometimes contradictory, and often make a player’s understanding (newbie or veteran) worse rather than better. A rulebook can be well-written and not give away fog-of-war concepts, nor invalidate the “learned knowledge” of the grizzled war dogs.

My point is this: If an order does something that a player would want to be aware of before issuing the order, then the player should have a “reasonable” idea of what the order will do, to some “reasonable” level of sucess. The exact level of sucess (or failure) is the fog-of-war, and should be left in the realm of the veterans who have ‘earned’ their skill.

HOWEVER, clairity should not be held hostage by fog-of-war. Clairity is something that all players should be able to rely upon. We pay for it, after all. The orders (and thereby the rules) are how we “play” the game and actually have “fun”. I don’t like the feeling that I’m paying Harley for stuff they are intentionally not telling me about a particular order. I use the following justification: IF the character can reasonably know about some aspect of an order, then the player should have that same data. After all, we ARE our characters when it comes to decision making.

I consider an issue to be a thing of clairity if, when the order is issued, an event will happen or can happen. I consider it fog-of-war if the chances of it happening are randomly determined. If it is not random, or if the character would have a reasonalble level of knowledge about the factors involved, then some level of detail should be in the rule book or the order description. I can’t imagine a game event or issued order than can have an outcome outside the realm of what the characters would reasonably suspect. Even when a mage issues Find artifact, he knows that he may have to answer a riddle or fight a wight to get it. He may loose, but as a mage he is wary of that possibility.

I agree with your intent, Christian, but not your question. I would love to see a new rulebook with clarity and reasonable inclusiveness for rules and order descriptions. The game is much better than the rule book leads one to believe. I feel its time to clean and clarify it, which will speed up newbie learning of the basic, while not giving away all the hard earned knowledge about fog-of-war that the veteran players have amassed. Included in the improved clairity could be a better representation of what factors are most or least important in an order or event, but the range of randomness should be left to be deduced by the player as he/she gains experience.

Keep up the fight, Christian! You are on the right track, in my humble opinion!

:slight_smile:

#31

Darrell: I think you are being a trifle grim. You might discourage some newbies. I grew up in this game without access to the internet. Played a decade without Brian’s crib sheet and the mass of information available on the internet. Still had my nation published (sometimes) in “Whispers”…

In retrospect, this may have been an advantage. Instead of looking at what others had done, it forced me to meditate on the information I did have. Forced me to test and experiment and learn from my mistakes. Forced me to divine the game creators’ intent.

Faramir: The Rule Book is deliberately vague, contains errors, ommissions and ambiguities. For reasons previously explained. Now that it has been explained, of course, it undercuts the reason for that action.

Good fortune to the two of you.

#32

Hmmm. an interesting conundrum.

I agree with lots of points made so far in this thread. I agree that old timers have more “knowledge” and can wax a newbie 1:1. But…

  • it’s a very complex game and I can’t see how to avoid that. What we want is a fast ramp to allow newbies to quickly exit newbie status.
  • as the agent discussion points out quite clearly, us old timers can disagree quite a lot about that “knowledge” (Ed Mills and I think quite a different thing about the effectiveness of agent guards for example)
  • And a newbie is usually on a team (unless they pick a neutral). And the team can help the new player come up to speed quite a lot.

In game design circles, there’s a phenonmena known as “laser tag syndrome”. This is to be highly avoided as it kills a game if it comes to be true. What it describes is the situation where experienced players prey on newcomers & drive them from the game as fast as they appear. It’s what happened when Laser Tag facilities first opened up in the late 80s. We want to avoid this like the plague in MEPBM. We want new people joining. We want an ever growing player base. We want a thriving community.

Thus, the question is how to balance preservation of the Fog of War & uncertainty with aspects of the game system, and still provide enough help to allow new players to integrate successfully into the game community.

My suggestion is 2 parts:
a. quick clean up of the rule book (solicit players to point out inconsistencies and unclear language - then fix it)
b. maintain & update bobbins on MEPBM’s site. There are new encounters & riddles not in there. The Dragon data is woefully wrong or out of date (as many of my characters can attest) There’s no FA section, etc. Mouth of Sauron (thanks Brian!) provided this service in the early days of MEPBM. MoS is now an archive, but there has been a LOT of learning since the last MoS issue. I don’t see much of the subsequent learning collected in Bobbins, or anywhere else. One easy way to do this would be to expand this BBS to have a moderated lore section where people could submit results of riddles, encounters, dragons & the like.

cheers,
Dave

#33

A couple problems here.

  1. As mentioned above, newbies are on a team and they have to be advised that this IS a social game to some extent. How many here will take a new job and refuse to be trained? How many get onto a new team for the first time and refuse to listen to the coach? When I see a newbie trying something absolutely ridiculous (or a pdf with a silly action on it from last turn…), I’ll point it out and advise of the Game Mechanic reasons why your 10 agent Scouting for Characters in the mountains on turn 2 is a dumb idea. I’ll do this in a private email so as to not hurt any tender feelings. When players advise that they’re getting a bunch of 40 emissaries together to steal enemy capitals, or sending agent squads of 50’s out to kill Nazgul, I send detailed explanations about how the game works, including modifiers, general skill ranges and success rates, etc. I’m not controling their game (“Do this”), I’m advising what will work and what won’t, and giving further advice as to How and When one can do what it is they want to do. Ignoring good advice is assinine and the sooner we are ALL rid of this or that newbie the better…

  2. MEGames took on the rules last year, I believe. They created something called a Source Book (?) and passed it out to interested parties and asked for feedback. That’s an old project, haven’t heard much since.

  3. People are always saying “This or that should be done!”. Well, first of all, it’s only an Opinion that it should be done… Second of all, nobody ever seems willing to step up and take it on themselves. We all know the one about “if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem”, but we only apply it 9-5…? I do know that Alan Jeffrey has posted claiming to be compiling riddle/encounter/dragon, etc, information, not sure the status of his project. (lionatus on the forum).

#34

Brad,
good point. It’s certainly easy to spend 2 minutes composing a suggestion on the BBS. it’s quite another thing to implement something. None-the-less, this BBS is here so that suggestions can percolate. And this thread really is about the concepts I brought up in my note - i.e. how do we grow and enhance this game & community? And finally, we do actually pay real $$$ to ME Games for this game, so it’s perfectly reasonable to offer suggestions to them in a friendly manner. I think Clint has been extremely receptive to people’s suggestions and listens very well. As he runs a business, he has to use his best judgement to prioritize requests against available funds. Per your suggestion above, it’s quite a wonderful thing if someone has time & inclination to add value to the gaming community by taking on some of these items that fall “below the line” for the company.

cheers,
Dave

#35

Hi All

Dont know why the rulebook is misleading in some issues. It will never be fully discriptive as it is an impossible task to cover all factors of an order, furthermore it tries to convey the Me atmosphere to peoble who like Tolkiens world, which is fantasy/legend. I agree that there are more levels than (auto), easy, average and hard. There are hard orders and hard-hard orders. If you spell them out in equations/+3 levels, any halfwitted with a calculator can find out if your nation has disliked/hated relations with his, it makes other orders obsolete. The problem is that there so many variables to an order and some of these are: relations, char. rank(both sides), loyality, army moral(training), fort. level, nation modifiers … and the last 5%. In conclusion, things are left vague as not to give away too much. Part of the fun is waiting for your turn hoping that your risky orders were successful!!!

Just my second cent/øre

Loke/Holger:D:D:D

#36

It seems to me what really Christian wants, is complete knowledge of the mechanics of the game, since there is no real mystery, or “fog of war”, to an informed player. In essence, why not publish everything, since the “equations” are already known or can be determined fairly accurately by the MEPBM community anyway?

I agree with his principle, but only if the game doesn’t change or evolve somehow in the future. Clint, while not necessarily promising such, has strongly hinted that change to the game may come in the future. If there is change to the game, or better still, a randomozing factor of some kind to each game played, the equations could then published with no ill effects to the game itself. The equations could be checked to verify with some degree of certainty, but without complete certainty, if a desired action would or would not suceed. Where’s the harm in that? Only a fool would formulate strategy based on data which may or may not reflect the current game conditions.

One thing I’d like to see different if at all possible, is all characters having the same life totals. It has never made since to me that Elrond, Murazor, Gandalf or any other powerful character would have an identical life total as a new character. Shouldn’t experiece, skill and overall power of the character add more life to the character? This doesn’t even factor in the race or background of such beings as Elves, Dragons, Dwarves, Eldar, Maiar or Nazgul? A life total more reflective of the overall power of a character would in itself add a huge variable to the game. No longer could three mages of 67 rank or higher with Sickness be guaranteed to kill a character. Powerful characters could live through battles or personal challenges easier, and have a chance of surviving what would otherwise be fatal encounters. I’m not sure how assassinations are worked out, but I don’t think higher life totals would matter as a well placed assassins blade should kill anyone, no matter who they are.

Just thought I’d add something to the discussion…

Chris Guerra

#37

Hi Chris

The problem as stated before, why ask for factual information and then substitute it by game specific randomizing. Its a lot harder for any newbie to get into the game that way, I for myself am a newbie with only some 55 turns/3 games on my back. I learned a lot from the old guys just by asking. Guess Ill stop playing when i finally understand the mechanics!

Loke:D:D:D

#38

Noted. Ask Clint for that Source Book thingie and give it a read through…even the request might spur them on (to a community update maybe…).

Anyone know that guy who put up mepbm.com…? Might be a good spot. Anyone willing to take on a compilation file of sorts that can simply be uploaded there maybe?

Brad, out of time himself…

#39

Two things: 1-What’s a “life total”…? 2-if you’re trying to kill people with 3x67 mages, I want you as an enemy…! :wink:

But seriously, there are also no “guarantees” even with that. In order to get a 95% guarantee (the best you’ll get), you have to make serious team strategic decisions - like, look for enough artifacts early in order to give them to these mages to create the guarantee. Maybe you won’t have someone capable of issuing Reveal Pop as a result…

All things considered, I never found the rules that difficult. Once I realized that they were actually quite literal, it was relatively easy to discern. Add a dash of common sense and you’re doing okay. Come on, they say things like “Hard - 60-100 have a fair/reasonable chance of success”. Well, duh, a City/Citadel/Capital “might” possibly be more difficult to operate in…and 60 is the low end of that range anyway. Why do we clamour for guarantees all the time? Point-click and please-me-now you get elsewhere. It doesn’t take long to realize this game actually requires thought on occasion, as Loke noted, that’s part of the appeal.

Brad

#40

Well Ed, if you’ve had so much practice, your casting rank must be high enough to pass on some of those artifacts…you have my contact info… :wink: