Source book - sorry the people we asked to do this dropped the ball but we’ve picked it up and it’s back on track. 95% done. We’ll keep you informed.
Clint
It seems to me the debate is between those who think that a player should come into the game with the ability to calculate almost exactly the results of every intended action and those who feel that this is unrealistic and would ruin the flavor of the game. Darrell Shimel’s points while literally true that an experience MEPBM player should trounce an first time player; the fact is that this is not a two person game like chess. Rarely is that first time player playing in isolation unless it is by his choosing. ME Games sets up games which have experienced gamers on both sides. Granted simply being experienced doesn’t equate to being good. Like Ed I have played this game for over 13 years now, but even in my first game I had contact through diplomatic cards from most of the other members on my team. I played the Fire King and realized it was pretty much a straight forward military position. Our Witch King player however provided me with the starting nation information, the artifacts list that had be developed in the Mouth of Sauron, encounters solutions etc. Was he trying to horde the information to himself? No like any player with intelligence he realized he could not win himself unless his side won. He wanted to help the newbie not destroy his own position out of ignorance. He and others provided requested advice whenever I asked because it was in their best interest to do so. Nothing has changed.
As Brad points out this is a social game as well as a wargame and strategic game. Relationships are established in this game just as in real life. Most are good some are bad. If you have all the formulas at your disposal the need to build those relationships is diminished. Even knowing the mathmatics does not ensure that you will succeed and if it reduces your willingness to interact with your allies it lessens their chance for eventual success as well. I feel like I have always been willing to advise and explain nuances in the game to less experienced players on my team who have asked. In return some of the numbers crunchers among them have made me aware of things I had discounted along the way that if used differently would bear fruit. It is that give and take that makes the game fun and exciting. It does not get stale because of this aspect.
I don’t think there is a movement to keep information secret. I think that there is a desire by some here to get the Cheat Codes as my son puts it to give them an advantage. I feel that it is not in ME Games best interest as a business to make those codes public because the only way to gain in experience is to play and practice. The publication of those codes would make some of that unneccessary and lessen revenue to ME Games. My view has not changed the codes should not be published.
The Alamo should have surrendered to Santa Anna. (Threat) he had more than enough troops, but the resolve of the Texican’s was such that they held out. You can argue that they did it because they were mistaken in the belief that they would have been relieved, or that help would come from Goliad, or you can say these were brave bastards fighting for a cause that they aided by every day they delayed the main Mexican army.
Bastogne was surrounded by a greatly superior force and the surrender of the position was demanded by the German’s. Yet the commander of the Americans there answered Nuts to the demand and they held on until relieved. The (Threat) failed because of the intangible, resolve, that could not be predicted by the issuer of the threat.
History is full of examples where reason does not suffice
Thermopolaye Where Leonidas told the Persians to come and take his weapons when offered a chance to lay them down and depart. Out numbered a hundred to one his Spartans fought to the last man.
Publishing the codes would tell you how things should turn out but there is always the chance that it won’t work that way and this duplicates real life. I just see no reason why publishing those codes is a good thing. Play on, learn, learn how to take a calculated risk, learn to ensure success, there are ways to do so. Don’t expect someone to provide you with a shortcut to success. I don’t know who said that “Luck is the result of proper preparation.” but I think this is what this debate has come to.
Right. Because the rules on when an army is “fed”, when a friendly pop will protect your enemy’s characters from assassination, how navy combat works, how pop placement works (hell, I’m still trying to figure that one out), how initiative works (part of above problem), how characters are reported in ScoChars… Hell, even how ScoChar really works…
Those things are so literal from the book, and make so much sense. NOT!
No one is asking for a guarantee. They’re not asking for the removal of the random factors. For example, they don’t want the random “rolls” removed from personal challenge. They just want the formulas for assassination and other actions to be as clearly understood as challenge and army combat.
There is a HUGE random factor in personal challenge. But, the rules for personal challenge a clear and easily understood. You don’t have to have run 200+ turns to have enough data to get a good understanding of how personal challenge works.
The same can’t be said of assassination, InfOthr, Threat, ScoChar, and half the other orders in the game.
What we’re asking for is a more level playing field. Currently, the person who has only played 50 turns has NO CHANCE of standing up to the player that has played 400 turns. It is like the heavyweight champion of the world going up against a 10 year-old.
Maybe the old-timers enjoyed discovering things for themselves in the days when NO ONE had played 400 turns. When NO ONE had more knowledge than them. Not the same for a newbie of today, joining the game when there are MANY players that know how the game really works, and the newbie comes in stumbling around trying to figure out things for themselves and getting ground into dust in less than 10 turns.
Wrong!
You seem to imply that one side wants the randomness removed. INCORRECT. If there is a 50-50 chance of an A75 killing an army commander, there would still be 50-50 chance of an A75 killing an army commander. No one is calling for the randomness to be removed.
What some of us are asking for is that the factors be known by all, instead on only those that have been around for 10-15 years.
I see this as a debate between the elete few that have the most knowledge, that want to reatin their ability to easily stomp all newbies into the ground, and those that want newbies to be given a fighting chance by making the knowledge of actual game mechanics available to all. Some want to win becuase they have been playing for over a decade and have superior knowledge of the mechanics, and others want to win because they are better at creating and executing plans in an environment where all have equal knowledge of game mechanics.
Darrell, you won’t address the point that the game isn’t Gunboat. Newbies are on a team. You are a TEAM PLAYER first and foremost. What do you think will happen to TEAM PLAY if all newbies have all this information, this level playing field…? Will it bring the TEAM closer together, improving TEAM PLAY, or is these a chance that it might have effects closer to what Brad J describes? I vote the latter.
Brad B
ps - oh the newbies get the information much faster than before, as Brad J also pointed out - we give it to them. But it’s better it comes from a Teammate then as part of a startup package. Frankly, precious few humans are ready to fully grasp the game (as with anything in life…) right off the hop. Don’t expect them to, and most certainly, don’t give them the impression they can~!
What is “The fog of war” ?
Its that an armycommander dont know the enemy troops exact location (maybe not even his own) , how many they are, how they are equiped aso. But he do (or should) know what an artillery unit could do. He do know about the chances a cavallytroop has to suceed in a surten mission. He do know about how often a siegmissile hit a surten target if its made properly.
We MEplayers are missing these information that should be common knowledge like in the real world. Thats whats this debate is all about.
Having said that. I belewe magic should remain as it is. Magic can never be common knowledge like science.
Sverre
No, that’s not what it’s about. We have Cav strength and constitution and we have combat calculators based on exactly what’s published in the rules or nation sheets. No human knows the “odds” of an assassination attempt in this world or Middle Earth. Keep it that way.
Brad
Some are VERY, VERY close to knowing the odds. Most are very, very far away. Those that are close, want to keep everyone else in the dark, or at least be able to easily stomp them for another 200-300 turns while they try to figure it out.
As for the team aspect… It is very easy to convince a newbie that recruiting LI is a bad idea. Why? The math is well understood and fully available. Not so easy to convince many of them that they shouldn’t try to InfOther with an E40 or ScoChar with an A30 or send an A50 to steal gold from an enemy MT.
People who either refuse to listen or have such paranoid trust issue they think I’m lying when I explain these things are mostly the types of people who won’t be long for this game anyway. If, after I advise the basic odds of the 525 order, based on emissary skill, relations, pop loyalty, etc, and then even go into the effect of the order if successful based on emis skill, etc, and they STILL send a group of 40’s to steal enemy pops, you know the ones, in order to “play my own game” and “learn it for myself”, well, what can you do? I terminate the employment of these people on a regular basis. Tell me, how much better players, TEAM players, etc, will they be if MEGames gave them the code in the begining? Think about it… it is NOT an information issue.
Brad B
Enjoyed the mortar and artillery examples given by a couple of writers. Think they have never been in the field with the tubes. If we knew everything there was to know about the tubes there would never be a friendly fire accident. The rounds wouldn’t cook off either. Those days I was hanging and shoving shells I know I wished I knew the odds for those. But I didn’t. The general knew even less than me, he was from the infantry.
First I would like to see some rule descriptions cleared up. If anyone thinks a guard will stop double his rank he is sorely mistaken. I do not think you need to publish the actual equation but an accurate description of some facets of the game would be appreciated.
Second, I do not buy the argument of the “elite” wanting to keep their secrets. I started playing in 96 and never played against anyone that I thought was “hands down” better than me. Having your own theories which may or may not be correct does make one elite and certainly does not even make you a competent player. Old players just do not like change IMO, most likely because they are not adaptable or they have a “need” to feel enlightened.
My 2 coppers
Right, not only am I an elitist but I’m selfish and inflexible.
Some Random thoughts:
The more like the ‘alsorans’ this game becomes, the less ‘realistic’ it becomes.
It is a good thing the soldiers don’t realize how little their commanders know. They might run away.
Wonder how those newbie Generals George Washington and Andrew Jackson were able to defeat their opposing numbers?
Hi,
Darrel : Brad is’t wrong as you’ll know the odds before issue the assassin/kidnap order for your A75 on the armycommander so it’s up to you if want to take the chance or not.
I found it bit funny that some players want’s to know’s the rules on every order more or less and then some players are talking about randomize artifacts already know aspect of the game I wonder why :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Ben
[QUOTE=dshimel]Right. Because the rules on when an army is “fed”, when a friendly pop will protect your enemy’s characters from assassination, how navy combat works, how pop placement works (hell, I’m still trying to figure that one out), how initiative works (part of above problem), how characters are reported in ScoChars… Hell, even how ScoChar really works…
Those things are so literal from the book, and make so much sense. NOT!
I’m glad someone else noticed.
Further, I’ve just now realized something that apparently the rest of the entire MEPBM world has known. “The rulebook is intentionally vague and misleading.” The important word here is “intentionally”…
Why? Why would a company do that to people who are paying for the game? Why does the rulebook need to be vague and misleading, if the events are random anyway and that randomness is what best represents the “fog of war”? Why would a company intentionally not provide information on how to play their game? I’m not asking for STRATEGY to be handed to me. I want to learn strategy along with everyone else. HOWEVER, I believed that I was paying for a complete rulebook. Apparently I’m not paying for an complete rulebook? Ridiculous.
The game mechanics should be in a rulebook. There is no legitimate reason for it to be intentionally vague or misleading. None. That is what a rulebook is for. To provide RULES. I mean really, If we were supposed to learn/guess the game mechanics, why bother printing a rulebook at all?
There is a huge difference between learning good strategy and tactics, versus having to piece together the mechanics of the game just to play. That borders on absurd. I wonder now how many veterans have beaten me because they knew something about an order that I did not, but should have? I wonder how many times I may have been screwed even though my strategies were sound, or even great?
I’m begining to think that MEPBM isnt a strategy game or a social game or a character game at all. I’m begining to think its a club of guys who like to lord it over other newbies because they know something about a rule that should be in the rulebook but isnt. What else don’t I know about the rules, I wonder?
If I had known that the rulebook was INTENTIONALLY F’d up, I would have never played MEPBM. I find that unacceptable, ridiculous even. I apologise to those of you who read this rant, and to Clint and Harley for my negative tone, but finding out that the rulebook for a game I enjoyed (up to today anyway) is intentionally missing stuff that would permit me to make better decisions, is ridiculous and dissapointing.
Who knows? Maybe I’ll play again. Maybe I wont. Not sure right now.
On a related note, Clint, you mentioned that there was some update guide nearing completion. Please let me know when it is available for players to see. I’d like to take a peek. Not sure why…but I would nonetheless.
No one gets to fight the heavy weight champion without first fighting through to be good enough to challenge him.
The rules are laid out plain as day. Some orders are easy some harder and then their are the hardest. You want to try hard orders with anything under a 70, run the risk of most of those orders failing. As an eight game vetran (Ha ha) I’m still learning and have a long way to go. I have always found the experienced guys willing to lend a hand/advice with orders/strategy, the other thing I have always found is most “newbies” don’t like being told their orders are foolish even when the reasons why are explained to them. If the calculations for every aspect of this game were known a fair few of the players of this game would stop playing as it will have lost it’s mystery. The reason newbies get ground into the dust is experience, the longer you play the better your strategy becomes and the more effective your use of orders become.
Regards Herman
Darrell, you and I have corresponded in the past. You know that I have played a long time. I am not averse to change just because I have played a long time. I am averse to dumbing down the game. Many here have said that is not what they are asking for. What are they asking for then. To be given the formula for all actions ahead of time so they don’t have to assume risks. I have played in games where a ScoChar done by a 101 scout failed to pick up the assassin that killed Urzahil. Would the ScoChar formula have helped me there? Obviously not. I took the prudent course, scouted for the presence of enemy agents with an extremely good scout. I did so because we knew the possibility that the enemy assassin could have reached the hex because we picked him up in a pop center report the previous turn. Understanding that the population center with a loyalty in the 40’s picked him up and that the 101 ScoChar failed to either pick up the assassin or his Company Commander/Scout shows that simply having the formula would not have helped in this situation at all. So what good would publishing it do. Yes it might take some of the guess work out of the game, but in my opinion it is the guesswork that makes the game interesting.
You write like there is a cabal of experienced gamers working in concert to deny their “trove” of special knowlege so that they can drive newbie players out of the game. You are mistaken if that is your belief. I have brought 7 new players into this game in the last year. I suspect I am not alone. Gerhard Kille and Mike Grazenbrook have brought at least one other in that I am aware of. Of those I brought in at least 2 others have come in because of them. Would depriving those new players be in my best interest, I think not. My experience has been that the more experienced players without fail attempt to mentor the new players.
I accepted the changes in agent play because when I first started they were virtually unstoppable. I think it should be changed a bit more. Change when it improves the game itself is good. Change when it simply makes the game easier to understand is not always in the best interest of the game. Publishing of the codes means less trial and error. Publishing the codes makes prediction easier. I frankly am against easy prediction because it does not reflect how hard it would be for that agent or army or whatever to do that mission. Initiative, maybe you’re the fastest gun in the west, so what? Wild Bill Hickock was not the fastest and he said it was not who drew fastest it was who put a bullet into the other fellow first that counted. Why then would it be important for a player to understand the initiative roll. Why is it important to know how accurate a scouting report from a population center is going to be? What will knowing that information do to affect your decision making.
I don’t believe making these changes to the game to make it more transparent adds anything at all to the game, and I don’t think that makes me resistant to change nor does it make me an elitest.
Brad J
I have had it. All this complaining is driving me up the wall (admittedly a short trip).
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All the experienced players do not know as much as you think or for that matter they think they do. The game still manages to pull a surprise or two for them.
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THIS GAME IS NOT AS HARD AS YOU ALL ARE MAKING IT! This is not chess, if you make a mistake in the game it is forgiveable even if you are playing against a good player…where in chess you lose a piece against a good player you might as well resign.
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When I started playing ten years ago all the information that is now on the web (if you take the time to do the research) was not readily available - you had to beg borrow steal or buy in some cases just to get copies of zero turns. Today you go to the internet download everything from zero turns, combat engines, riddle answers, dragon answers (though these need some work agreed), even odds to winning pc’s. What more do you need? You want every order spelled out to you like preschoolers?
Finally, this may sound cruel, but I do believe newbies should have to get out there and work for their knowledge. I did. This is not a matter of the “elite” wanting to keep the information “secret”, this is a matter of believing that newbies should gain the knowledge the same way all of us “elitists” did - TRIAL AND ERROR. If we are so elitist, then why in every game I have been in so far have the experienced/elitist players volunteered to help the newbies with any information they might need? I am not sure who you are all pointing the finger at…but it is certainly not most of the players I have played with.
(quote) Further, I’ve just now realized something that apparently the rest of the entire MEPBM world has known. “The rulebook is intentionally vague and misleading.” The important word here is “intentionally”.(unquote).
“Tricksey Hobbits. I hate them my Precious!”
Eady Lad. I’m a notorious liar. Just ask anyone.
Okay, I’m dating myself here, but I think this is a Bill Field Legacy.
Put on your way-back hats boys…
Before MEPBM existed GSI ran a game called Earthwood. Stuart Taft will remember it. In this game the positions were of wildly different strengths and abilities. There were no allegiances, anyone could attack anyone, and some of the positions were 3x as strong as their immediate neighbors.
It was very common for first time players to be placed in the weakest positions because they didn’t know which positions to ask for and these were the ones “left over”. Consequently, the newbies usually got slaughtered in their first game. This happened to my brother who never played PBM after that.
Most others however realized that although they were defeated in their first game, the valuable knowledge they had gained would allow them to do much better in subsequent games. And they signed up again.
I firmly believe Bill Field did this intentionally. He created a situation in which important information could only be gained by actually playing the game so that players were rewarded for their continued play. It would have been very easy to steer first timers to more powerful positions, or warn them, or publish a list as to which positions were tougher to play – all of which was intentionally not done.
My suspicion isn’t that Bill Field was a bad guy, just that he didn’t really believe in the longevity of the games he created. I believe he felt that more players would play again if they felt they could do better in subsequent games. And that once they had played 5 or 8 times they would move onto the next game.
I see vestiges of this thinking not in the way MEPBM was designed (which is very subtle), but in the way the rule book was written.
For example: In the beginning all was a mystery and nobody knew other nation abilities, artifact powers, encounters, etc… But by game 50 this was all fairly common knowledge. And yet, it was never published by GSI. Unlike Harley, which does a great job of steering newbies to critical information on setups, GSI just let em stagger in blind to get slaughtered. Same attitude as in Earthwood.
Having said all this, I don’t believe the answer is to reveal all the algorithms that run the game. Personally, I like the mystery and feel it adds a lot of spice. If it was purely a numbers racket it just wouldn’t be as much fun. HOWEVER, I think a much better rule book could be written to help players make intelligent decisions. Frankly, the rule book is useless for figuring out what are smart moves vs. dumb moves.
How many newbies have you seen issuing “Make Armor” orders, or Sieging, or flailing on their tax rates, relations, or camp placements? How many newbies load up on mages to make their armies invincible only to get gutted by 2600 HI in wo/no. The point is there is a finite, and fairly compact set of information required about how to really play the game, what are ballpark odds on certain actions, and what are things you should probably do to stay alive. Some of it is advice, and some of it is mechanics, but all of it should be better organized and presented in a single place.
Furthermore, the subtleties of how food affects movement and such should be written down, officially, so players can at least figure out the mechanics, if not the exact odds of the game.
MEPBM is an excellent, very subtle game that I’m sure has far outlived its creators expectations. The artificial mystery instilled by intentionally writing crappy rules isn’t required to make players play again and again – the game is good enough to do that on its own. A clearer, more accurate and honest set of rules would be a better introduction for newbies, and one much more in line with Harley’s very open and fair GM’ing. But that’s all that’s required. Keep the algorithms secret.
Adam
Here’s the thing. If the rules are what’s making you want to Not play again, then don’t. Quite simple.
We’re really close to the point where everything has been said (not there yet, there’s only 1 Mr Last Word on this thread…) but what hasn’t really been explored is the simple parallel this discussion has to the real world. Some types of people want everything for nothing, and even worse, often feel that others (the world, their boss, MEGames) owe it to them. I’m not one of those people. I believe in personal responsibility and as such, did the Research (ongoing to this day, in fact) necessary and learned from veterans where necessary. Others don’t, do not research (how many easy questions do we see on this forum that never have to be asked because they’re 3 clicks away if Initiative was present…) and seem incapable of learning unless it’s the really REALLY hard way. Repeating myself, but they aren’t usually long for this game anyway, so frankly…
Brad