Starting positions for new players

mepbmlist
#1

Marc,
I think that a bit of advise along the lines that you have suggested would
be a great idea on the Harly site. I wouldn't try to prohibit players from
a particular position based on experience though. It is hard to enforce,
puts Harly in a bad spot and maybe some one REALLY wants to play Saruman or
Galadriel their first try.

I think a beginners guide to nations would be appropriate.

Matt Ashley

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Pinsonneault [mailto:pinsonneault.1@osu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:59 AM
To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Starting positions for new players

I think the Harlequin transfer is a nice opportunity for some changes
in ME PBM. It is a fine game, and I suspect that there are a lot of
ideas floating around in the community. From a practical perspective,
anything involving coding changes is likely to be slow. The easiest
thing to alter is the setup process.

I would recommend that some of the nations not be available to
first-time and novice players. These fall into two groups: positions
that are likely to be very frustrating for first-timers and positions
that are crucial to the respective teams. For the first class, I
think that a completed game would be needed to take the position; for
the second class, perhaps six months of play so that the players would
at least have a good working grasp of game mechanics. In addition, I
think that on the intro page Harlequin should recommend against
(although not prohibit) neutrals for a first game. Mentoring is
useful and easy for alliance members; first time neutrals frequently
end up isolated, dropped, and lost to the hobby.

I am most experienced in 2950, so I will make a stab at the nations I
would not give to first-time players for that scenario. I'm sure the
1650 vets could come up with an equivalent for 1650.

Frustrating/difficult positions for new players:

Northern Gondor, Sinda, Northmen, Dragon Lord, Rhun.

All of the first four can face sustained frontal assaults in the first
few turns that can cripple them. Poor play by Northern Gondor and the
Dragon Lord also badly hurt their respective teams. The Rhun are here
because they frequently face join-or-die threats that make for a poor
introduction to the hobby.

The Witch-King and Woodmen can also be in for an early hurting, but in
my experience of a dozen games they are rarely on the ropes in the
first five turns. 2305 is hard to reach and the Woodmen have lots of
neighbors who can help them.

Key team positions:

Noldo, Cloud Lord, Dark Lts.

All three of these nations have special importance for their teams.
The Noldo and Dark Lts. have powerful artifacts and access to crucial
lore spells for the artifact chase; they also have very strong and
expensive characters. The dark side relys on the Cloud Lord agents
and the economic muscle that comes from not needing armies.

Southern Gondor is very important for the free military effort and
when properly played it is an economic powerhouse; the Dog Lord is
also very important for the dark military effort. Either or both of
these positions might also qualify.

It is perfectly fine to have a learning experience for the first game,
but it should not come at the expense of 24 other players. I have
seen lots of aborted games that can be directly traced to drops and
inexperience in the nations above.

Well, thats my two cents for now. Fire at will :slight_smile:

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#2

I agree that it can be frustrating to loose a game because a newbee didn't
get it or grew frustrated and dropped. However, I'd be concerned about
limiting who can play what position. I know 10 year players that play worse
than some newbees <grin>.

Instead, I'd like to see MEPBM become a bit more open. Unlike other PBMs
GSI keeps all its equations secret and doesn't provide much in the way of
strategy. I'd like to see Harlequin move to somewhere between "full
disclosure" and "the great wall of silence" we've seen in the past.

Until then, point newbees to sites like http://www.middleearthpbm.co.uk/ or
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Battlefield/3722/midearth2.html

Just my $.02
Wes

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley, Matthew" <Ashley.Matthew@hitco.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Starting positions for new players

Marc,
I think that a bit of advise along the lines that you have suggested would
be a great idea on the Harly site. I wouldn't try to prohibit players

from

a particular position based on experience though. It is hard to enforce,
puts Harly in a bad spot and maybe some one REALLY wants to play Saruman

or

Galadriel their first try.

I think a beginners guide to nations would be appropriate.

Matt Ashley

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Pinsonneault [mailto:pinsonneault.1@osu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:59 AM
To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Starting positions for new players

I think the Harlequin transfer is a nice opportunity for some changes
in ME PBM. It is a fine game, and I suspect that there are a lot of
ideas floating around in the community. From a practical perspective,
anything involving coding changes is likely to be slow. The easiest
thing to alter is the setup process.

I would recommend that some of the nations not be available to
first-time and novice players. These fall into two groups: positions
that are likely to be very frustrating for first-timers and positions
that are crucial to the respective teams. For the first class, I
think that a completed game would be needed to take the position; for
the second class, perhaps six months of play so that the players would
at least have a good working grasp of game mechanics. In addition, I
think that on the intro page Harlequin should recommend against
(although not prohibit) neutrals for a first game. Mentoring is
useful and easy for alliance members; first time neutrals frequently
end up isolated, dropped, and lost to the hobby.

I am most experienced in 2950, so I will make a stab at the nations I
would not give to first-time players for that scenario. I'm sure the
1650 vets could come up with an equivalent for 1650.

Frustrating/difficult positions for new players:

Northern Gondor, Sinda, Northmen, Dragon Lord, Rhun.

All of the first four can face sustained frontal assaults in the first
few turns that can cripple them. Poor play by Northern Gondor and the
Dragon Lord also badly hurt their respective teams. The Rhun are here
because they frequently face join-or-die threats that make for a poor
introduction to the hobby.

The Witch-King and Woodmen can also be in for an early hurting, but in
my experience of a dozen games they are rarely on the ropes in the
first five turns. 2305 is hard to reach and the Woodmen have lots of
neighbors who can help them.

Key team positions:

Noldo, Cloud Lord, Dark Lts.

All three of these nations have special importance for their teams.
The Noldo and Dark Lts. have powerful artifacts and access to crucial
lore spells for the artifact chase; they also have very strong and
expensive characters. The dark side relys on the Cloud Lord agents
and the economic muscle that comes from not needing armies.

Southern Gondor is very important for the free military effort and
when properly played it is an economic powerhouse; the Dog Lord is
also very important for the dark military effort. Either or both of
these positions might also qualify.

It is perfectly fine to have a learning experience for the first game,
but it should not come at the expense of 24 other players. I have
seen lots of aborted games that can be directly traced to drops and
inexperience in the nations above.

Well, thats my two cents for now. Fire at will :slight_smile:

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#3

Fair enough; I can write up something along these lines if folks are
interested. At least for the frontline positions, the logic was that
these are not the best introduction to the game; at minimum an "are
you sure" message would be helpful. This could also help get the more
experienced folks into these positions which are frequently shunned by
them. A lot of experienced players would rather have someone else
take the thankless Northern Gondor/Dragon Lord punching bag roles :slight_smile:

Completely backwards from what is ideal for a good game, IMO.

cheers,

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "Ashley, Matthew" <Ashley.Matthew@h...>
wrote:

Marc,
I think that a bit of advise along the lines that you have suggested

would

be a great idea on the Harly site. I wouldn't try to prohibit

players from

a particular position based on experience though. It is hard to

enforce,

puts Harly in a bad spot and maybe some one REALLY wants to play

Saruman or

···

Galadriel their first try.

I think a beginners guide to nations would be appropriate.

Matt Ashley

#4

Sounds good.

···

Fair enough; I can write up something along these lines if folks are
interested. At least for the frontline positions, the logic was that
these are not the best introduction to the game; at minimum an "are
you sure" message would be helpful. This could also help get the more
experienced folks into these positions which are frequently shunned by
them. A lot of experienced players would rather have someone else
take the thankless Northern Gondor/Dragon Lord punching bag roles :slight_smile:

Completely backwards from what is ideal for a good game, IMO.

cheers,

Marc

#5

Wes Fortin wrote:

Instead, I'd like to see MEPBM become a bit more open. Unlike other PBMs
GSI keeps all its equations secret and doesn't provide much in the way of
strategy. I'd like to see Harlequin move to somewhere between "full
disclosure" and "the great wall of silence" we've seen in the past.

I haven't seen anyone else comment on this, so I'll throw in my two
cents. I'd like to see a much more defined policy on this, instead of
the haphazard knowledge that currently exists, mostly as rumor. A
defined review, as it were.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
http://members.home.net/jasonab/

#6

Wes Fortin wrote:

> Instead, I'd like to see MEPBM become a bit more open. Unlike

other PBMs

> GSI keeps all its equations secret and doesn't provide much in the

way of

> strategy. I'd like to see Harlequin move to somewhere between

"full

> disclosure" and "the great wall of silence" we've seen in the

past.

I haven't seen anyone else comment on this, so I'll throw in my two
cents. I'd like to see a much more defined policy on this, instead

of

the haphazard knowledge that currently exists, mostly as rumor. A
defined review, as it were.

      jason

I have posted on the deft board the details of production (how much of
each thing gets produced in each terrain type, along with the chances
of same and the climate info.) The old Mouth of Sauron stuff is 1650
specific, and they missed a prominent feature - namely, that both the
production amounts and the odds of getting things like gold are very
different for new and game start population centers. The hills/rough
are exactly the same as mountains for getting gold if you have new
camps (75%). I could put this in a file, perhaps for something like
Harlys or Facades board.

I have also cracked and posted the algorithm that is used for
determining scores. I think of these things as logic puzzles.

I would like to see better guidelines for the odds of success of skill
orders, which can really only come from Harly. Also, the real
terrain/tactics modifiers.

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Jason Bennett <jasonab@a...> wrote:

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@a...
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
http://members.home.net/jasonab/

#7

Marc Pinsonneault wrote:

The old Mouth of Sauron stuff is 1650
specific, and they missed a prominent feature - namely, that both the
production amounts and the odds of getting things like gold are very
different for new and game start population centers. The hills/rough
are exactly the same as mountains for getting gold if you have new
camps (75%). I could put this in a file, perhaps for something like
Harlys or Facades board.

I'm curious to know how you worked this out. This is the sort of stuff that
I would also like to see discussed somewhere; even though I've played many
games, I never noticed this!

Gavin

#8

I think GSI wanted to keep things secret and slowly the information has
leaked out. As we generally have to ask or run a Process on a game to find
out specific cases (usually Navy!) I was thinking of putting together a file
(pdf probably) for general consumption of all the questions asked and then
regularly update it. We keep all the weird questions that we get in a
folder so it would take some work to get this usable. How does that sound?

Clint

Wes Fortin wrote:

> Instead, I'd like to see MEPBM become a bit more open. Unlike other

PBMs

> GSI keeps all its equations secret and doesn't provide much in the way

of

···

> strategy. I'd like to see Harlequin move to somewhere between "full
> disclosure" and "the great wall of silence" we've seen in the past.

I haven't seen anyone else comment on this, so I'll throw in my two
cents. I'd like to see a much more defined policy on this, instead of
the haphazard knowledge that currently exists, mostly as rumor. A
defined review, as it were.

jason

#9

I think that's a good idea. I like having some of the inner workings secret
just to keep things fresh.

I'd also like to see a very sanitized explaination of how the rolls are
determined. The rule book states the variables in the equations. It
appears that the rolls are similar to the RPG's but together by ICE which
involve a success roll followed by a modified affect roll. Just a general
explanation of this type of mechanic would greatly help newbees ramp up into
the game and compete. It's petty common to see them botch thier first game
or so, through no fault of thier own, which ruins it for everyone else. Old
farts like myself who've been playing for 10 years or so have a good feel
for these types of things (like what rank an emmy needs to be to reliably
post camps).

Thanks for lending an ear (or, eye in the case of email)

Wes

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harlequin Games" <pbm@harlequingames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Starting positions for new players

I think GSI wanted to keep things secret and slowly the information has
leaked out. As we generally have to ask or run a Process on a game to

find

out specific cases (usually Navy!) I was thinking of putting together a

file

(pdf probably) for general consumption of all the questions asked and then
regularly update it. We keep all the weird questions that we get in a
folder so it would take some work to get this usable. How does that

sound?

Clint

> Wes Fortin wrote:
>
> > Instead, I'd like to see MEPBM become a bit more open. Unlike other
PBMs
> > GSI keeps all its equations secret and doesn't provide much in the way
of
> > strategy. I'd like to see Harlequin move to somewhere between "full
> > disclosure" and "the great wall of silence" we've seen in the past.
>
> I haven't seen anyone else comment on this, so I'll throw in my two
> cents. I'd like to see a much more defined policy on this, instead of
> the haphazard knowledge that currently exists, mostly as rumor. A
> defined review, as it were.
>
> jason
>

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#10

Hi,

As a "newbie" who has only just received the rules (thanks Clint)
care has to be taken not to provide too much information.

Searching around the web there is a great deal 'out there'. I want
to play and enjoy the game - and yes this means making mistakes and
having to learn from experience. This means not reading all the
articles etc..

I hope when I start playing the experienced players will not just
expect to send me lists of instructions for me to follow.

Saying that one thing which would be useful with the basic advice is
a list of the positions which COULD be better suited to beginners.

Derek

p.s Are there ever enough newbies signing up to allow them to have a
game to themselves ??

#11

Not generally we set up two games like this recently after the dlyer drop
and drop was the appropriate word there.

Ask the GM for suitable positions - we can help there. There is often a
roleplaying issue that players like to address such as they like to play
Elrond - which is a difficult position to play (as far as team needs are
concerned) for example. We always try to put an experienced player in the
game to act as mentor as well.

We don't give Neutrals out unless the player is pretty much set on the idea.

Clint

···

Hi,

As a "newbie" who has only just received the rules (thanks Clint)
care has to be taken not to provide too much information.

Searching around the web there is a great deal 'out there'. I want
to play and enjoy the game - and yes this means making mistakes and
having to learn from experience. This means not reading all the
articles etc..

I hope when I start playing the experienced players will not just
expect to send me lists of instructions for me to follow.

Saying that one thing which would be useful with the basic advice is
a list of the positions which COULD be better suited to beginners.

Derek

p.s Are there ever enough newbies signing up to allow them to have a
game to themselves ??

Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm

#12

Hi,

As a "newbie" who has only just received the rules (thanks Clint)
care has to be taken not to provide too much information.

Searching around the web there is a great deal 'out there'. I want
to play and enjoy the game - and yes this means making mistakes and
having to learn from experience. This means not reading all the
articles etc..

I hope when I start playing the experienced players will not just
expect to send me lists of instructions for me to follow.

Saying that one thing which would be useful with the basic advice is
a list of the positions which COULD be better suited to beginners.

Derek

RD: Hi Derek, welcome to the best fantasy wargame on the market.

I like your spirit, but you really should make use of any 'articles' you
find on the web. Other players will do so, and the fact that such articles
are freely available makes for a level playing field.

I have a few basic lists which I will send to new players on request, but
every bit as important is that your more experienced team-mates explain WHY
xyz order is better in a given situation than yxz, and suggestions (not
orders!) as to how best to develop your nation not just for your own good
but for that of the team.

Of course you will make mistakes, even veterans do. If you don't understand
why something went wrong, ask your team-mates and/or Harlequin, who will be
happy to help. Happy gaming!

Regards,

Richard.

p.s Are there ever enough newbies signing up to allow them to have a
game to themselves ??

RD: you will have to ask Harlequin that one. I would guess not. In any
case, you will learn faster, become a better player more quickly, and thus
get more out of the game, if you are guided by veterans. You don't HAVE to
take their advice, it's YOUR position after all, but DO listen to what they
have to say.

Oh, you will frequently find different veterans give you conflicting advice!
This is because nobody knows everything there is to know about the game,
random factors (luck!) affect many orders, and different players have
different strategies. All this adds to the fun!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <hrolffson@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Starting positions for new players

#13

hrolffson@yahoo.co.uk wrote

As a "newbie" who has only just received the rules (thanks Clint)
care has to be taken not to provide too much information.

Searching around the web there is a great deal 'out there'. I want
to play and enjoy the game - and yes this means making mistakes and
having to learn from experience. This means not reading all the
articles etc..

Odd to suggest that learning by your own mistakes is preferable to
swotting up first on the mistakes and triumphs of others. You will
enjoy this game most if you play to win. That means cramming your
newbie brain with every little scrap of information you can gather.
Don't worry, you'll still make mistakes, we all do.

I hope when I start playing the experienced players will not just
expect to send me lists of instructions for me to follow.

They will. They want to win. It's a team game, your mistakes have
knock on effects, that can spoil the game for others. So I'd say be
grateful for the lists of instructions. Sooner or later you'll find
that different players are urging you to do different things, that's
when the fun starts. Nine times out of ten the advice will be good and
designed to keep you alive. Just don't be intimidated. Other players
have a right, (and I'd say a duty) to tell you what they think you
should do, but ultimately the decisions are always your own.

Saying that one thing which would be useful with the basic advice is
a list of the positions which COULD be better suited to beginners.

Opinions will vary greatly, so you should ask individuals rather than
expect an agreed list from anyone. It also depends a lot on how much
you are prepared to do as you're told! If you are willing to be
chaperoned through the first few turns, then you should manage almost
any nation well. If you're not going to communicate or take advice (and
some newbies do neither) then a safe nation behind the lines like Blind
Sorcerer or Noldo is best. Basically, you can screw these up for a long
time before the enemy reaches you - the team won't thank you though,
they often rely on these nations for gold subsidies, and intelligence
spells. You could learn the ropes by "making your own mistakes" but you
could also very easily earn a bad reputation.

Imagine being given a position in a football team, and saying that you
didn't want to be told what to do by the coach, captain, or more
experienced players.

p.s Are there ever enough newbies signing up to allow them to have a
game to themselves ??

Yes. They are sad little affairs. Like a game of chess where players
have a rough idea of how the pieces move, but know no strategies.
Sooner or later one of the newbies will read a strategy article and wipe
out those who haven't. The other thing to consider is the fact that
lots of newbies are in fact "trying" the game, and many drop - so you
get a much diminished experience.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

#14

Hi,

As a "newbie" who has only just received the rules (thanks Clint)
care has to be taken not to provide too much information.

Hello and welcome.

Searching around the web there is a great deal 'out there'. I want
to play and enjoy the game - and yes this means making mistakes and
having to learn from experience. This means not reading all the
articles etc..

Well....there is some information, like the starting positions in
1650/2950, that everyone else will know. Imagine playing a game of
chess where you can only see the pieces next to yours while the other
guy can see the whole board, and you'll get a feel for what not
knowing that will be like. You don't need to know everything, but
like any other game there are some things that you simply need to do
to avoid defeat. The real fun comes in after you've mastered the
basics and can develop a style of your own.

I hope when I start playing the experienced players will not just
expect to send me lists of instructions for me to follow.

I understand what you're saying; there are some folks who would do
that. I would distinguish between matters of necessity and matters of
style. For example, in 2950 you need to place camps to build up your
little starting position or you will have no fun and be a drain on
your team. There are also opening moves - this enemy nation near
you usually does this, and if you don't counter it you'll get
whacked. If you don't do things like this, you hurt yourself and hurt
your team. Other matters are more related to style, and even some
old hands can give some bad advice. The best approach is to select a
nation that does what you're interested in, and seek out advice on how
best to accomplish it. Remember, this is a team game. This means
that you can rely on your allies for a lot of things, and it also
means that your actions affect them.

Saying that one thing which would be useful with the basic advice is
a list of the positions which COULD be better suited to beginners.

I'm writing that up now, sending it to Harlequin to see what they
think. You can email me offline about 2950 - should ask someone else
about 1650.

Derek

p.s Are there ever enough newbies signing up to allow them to have a
game to themselves ??

This happened to me in my first game. GSI signed up a lot of new
players at a game con. Lord, what a mess. Both sides had tons of
drops; the free never had more than seven players and only four
actually talked and did not drop. We never hit the camp limit (I got
bored with camps and stopped around number fifty). Took forever. It
ended up fun, but mostly because the free got three neutrals and spent
a ton of time on it and the dark got experienced standby players.

If we hadn't had some expert opponents we could watch and learn from,
I bet that game would still be going.

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, hrolffson@y... wrote:

#15

Marc Pinsonneault wrote:

> The old Mouth of Sauron stuff is 1650
> specific, and they missed a prominent feature - namely, that both

the

> production amounts and the odds of getting things like gold are

very

> different for new and game start population centers. The

hills/rough

> are exactly the same as mountains for getting gold if you have new
> camps (75%). I could put this in a file, perhaps for something

like

> Harlys or Facades board.

I'm curious to know how you worked this out. This is the sort of

stuff that

I would also like to see discussed somewhere; even though I've

played many

games, I never noticed this!

Gavin

I was curious how the production stuff worked, and had a bunch of pdf
files from my first couple of games. I also emailed my opponents from
a game where they creamed us and got theirs. I typed them into a
spreadsheet. I noticed right away that unlike the MOS stuff lots of
mountain camps didn't have gold, and it seemed like all of the
starting pop centers did. So I split the list that way, and the
production amounts and what you started with were very different.
Hills/rough are the best place for gold - better climate than the
mountains and the same odds of getting it.

The Mouth of Sauron climate stuff, by the way, appears to be identical
in both 2950 and fourth age.

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

#16

Harlequin Games wrote:

out specific cases (usually Navy!) I was thinking of putting together a file
(pdf probably) for general consumption of all the questions asked and then
regularly update it. We keep all the weird questions that we get in a
folder so it would take some work to get this usable. How does that sound?

Sounds like a plan....

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord
http://members.home.net/jasonab/

#17

Marc Pinsonneault wrote:

I was curious how the production stuff worked, and had a bunch of pdf
files from my first couple of games. I also emailed my opponents from
a game where they creamed us and got theirs. I typed them into a
spreadsheet. I noticed right away that unlike the MOS stuff lots of
mountain camps didn't have gold, and it seemed like all of the
starting pop centers did. So I split the list that way, and the
production amounts and what you started with were very different.
Hills/rough are the best place for gold - better climate than the
mountains and the same odds of getting it.

The Mouth of Sauron climate stuff, by the way, appears to be identical
in both 2950 and fourth age.

Wow, I'm impressed! Did you ever do anything similar for the other stuff?

Gavin