Startup Fees for 1650 World Championship Challenge Do Not Inc...

In a message dated 10/21/03 11:28:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kirkspeer@yahoo.com writes:

I would be interested in what happened as well.

A member of my 2950 team had a recent problem with an
older version of auto-magic and was told, too bad,
you're mainly stuck with the results even though it
was a program error and not player error. He is going
to continue playing the current game he is in, but has
confided to me because of the poor customer service
from this event, he may never play Mepbm again.

Folks, remember we are your customers, we are paying
for a service to experience a fair and fun game. If a
technical problem occurs when a turn is run, please do
your utmost to rectify the situation. Otherwise,
people who enjoy 99% of the aspects of Mepbm, will not
continue to be customers of this fine service.

Respectfully,

Kirk Speer

       I do not presently, nor have I ever, played a game ran by the folks at
Middle-earth Games. I have been giving consideration to playing the game
again, though, having played it several years ago, when it was run by GSI.
       I don't know the facts of the above matter, and cannot speak to it,
accordingly. With regards to customer service deficiencies in the PBM arena,
though, I recently made a decision to end my play of Hyborian War, run by Reality
Simulations, Inc.. I had played that game, on and off, for 17 years - almost
two decades.
       I liked that game a lot. However, I do not regret quitting that game,
because I quit for what I felt were the right reasons, which is what any
player must ultimately do. Will I ever return to Hyborian War? That is very, very
doubtful.
       My point is this: However difficult it may seem to PBM companies to
attract new players to their games, once the damage is done, in terms of
customer service deficiencies, undoing the impact that damage has on even long-term
players can become, in some instances, insurmountable.
       At what point did I draw the line? At the point that RSI's staff told
me that no one at the company was in charge of customer service. In hindsight,
this actually made a lot of sense, looking back on errors and inconsistencies
in service.
       I do not agree with the individual who suggested that they would
necessarily regret quitting. The truth and the fact of the matter is that there are
more games available to choose from today, where the entire gaming industry
is concerned, than ever before. Even where the core PBM industry is concerned,
while many of the older, more well known games have faded into the past, if
one bothers to search, they will likely find as many PBM games up and running as
ever. This without even taking into account the PBEM games or World Wide Web
games.
       For the players, ultimately, it is just a game. For the companies who
run them for profit, it is their livelihood. In the 17 years I have played PBM
games, the one thing, more than any other, that I have seen turn people away
from the industry is substandard approaches to service and interaction with
their customer base.
       Whatever else may be said, I do know this much. Companies that ignore
such problems and complaints ultimately end up losing more than just the
customer immediately affected.
       One bad experience can sour a customer forever. This is true in any
business.

       For whatever it is worth. . .

- Charles -

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

The truth and the fact of the matter is that there are
more games available to choose from today, where the entire
gaming industry is concerned, than ever before.

Very true - though of course PBM continues to offer something most
computer games, online games, boardgames etc do not, which is the
human touch.

Even where the core PBM industry is concerned, while many of the
older, more well known games have faded into the past, if
one bothers to search, they will likely find as many PBM games up
and running as ever. This without even taking into account the
PBEM games or World Wide Web games.

Actually I have to disagree - and strongly at that. Flagship magazine
has been covering PBM games for over 20 years now. Ever since about
1990 there has been a steady drift downwards in the number of PBM
games on the market and this has accelerated over the past two to
three years. There are now less games and less GMs than at any time
since the early 1980s - which is the major reason we now cover a
variety of other types of gaming (eg PBEM, web/online games,
boardgames, rpgs etc) - there just isn't the player base to justify a
magazine solely devoted to PBM.

Whatever else may be said, I do know this much. Companies that
ignore such problems and complaints ultimately end up losing more
than just the customer immediately affected.

Absolutely. That's the way a market economy works. There is an
interesting discussion to be had about our expectations of a PBM
company. Past experience would lead me to believe that most players do
not expect perfecttion and, indeed, are willing to put up with a
certain degree of errors - the important thing is the consistant and
accurate correction of errors.

Colin

such problems and complaints ultimately end up losing more than just the
customer immediately affected.
       One bad experience can sour a customer forever. This is true in any
business.

Agreed - we do explain the rules fully before hand. In both cases we've attempted to explain to the players why the decision was made. There's a tough line to draw, but at some point we do have to draw a line. Otherwise it's a matter of who shouts at us loudest and longest. Not a situation anyone in the game would like to be in I am sure.

If a situation is unclear we'll attempt to help out, and often do with many aspects of our service. When a player has got a rule wrong then, rather than be accused of favouritism or interference, we let that ruling stand and don't change them mid-game - something that players don't like. If you have a complaint feel free to contact us and we'll try to help out.

We don't always get it right but we do try; I think because there is no one right answer for every situation. So we attempt to explain the rules of the game (variant games have additional rules and whenever you sign up for one I strongly advise that you check).

"Why do people take such drastic steps because of one mistake? Various moderators of MEPBM have annoyed me (to varying degrees, GAD being the
worst), but I don't think I've ever seriously contemplated giving up the game - it's simply too enjoyable."

My take as well. If you enjoy the game the occasional knock on your enjoyment is sometimes to be expected and prepared for. In an ideal world we'd be perfect and so would the players (read the information we send out, check the relations etc) but it's not a perfect world. So as the Boy scouts say - be prepared.. :slight_smile: In all seriousness I know errors annoy players, we try to minimise them and we have drastically cut them down by the use of AM.

In this case it wasn't our error - the players were informed before hand, and did not check the relations. It's happened to a few players (it's even happened to our GM team and we did not get an attack order off because of it) so be equally fair (or unfair) to everyone we have to apply the rules equally.

We're never going to run a perfect service - it's unfeasible and impossible but we'll try our best to help out where we can and run a fair game. I do sympathise with the team concerned (I've been there myself as a player and although it spoilt my enjoyment somewhat our team accepted the decision and played on) and I would urge what could be the strongest team out there to continue on.

Have fun and help make it fun for others.

Clint

Okay I am interested in this. I want to get a questionnaire out to players sometime soon so that I can get a finger on the pulse of the players. Are players generally...

1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

This leads onto:
What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

What do you not enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

This would give me a quick insight into where we're going here.

One example I quote about response to player's desire is the situation with asking for a special service to be turned off - so that a nation that would go out due to lack of capital (or similar) could then get a capital on a later turn and be re-activated. Despite losing a few players we made it so that we would not allow players to have SS turns turned off.

Same for remove the charge for SS turns (we had a lot of hassle from GSI for not charging for these type of turns).

Thanks - all help appreciated and I realise that this doesn't cover every eventually so feel free to comment.

Thanks
Clint

1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

Count me as one of those happy with ME Games' level of service. I
have had no major problems with order processing thus far. But I
had one occasion recently when I made three obvious and goofy
blunders in one turnsheet (I was not using AutoMagic at the time and
now I am for that very reason). ME Games emailed me and said I
could resubmit my orders up to the processing deadline which they
gave to me in my local time as well as GMT. That really impressed
me! GSI would never have done that.

Also, ME Games offers a number of ME PBM variants, such as, duo-
nation games, LAS 4th Age games, and my personal favorite -- the
exciting and intense Gunboat variant. Again, the old GSI would
never have done that (although GSI did do some of that after Bill
Feild). These variants keep the game fresh for many players and
indicate to me that ME Games really does seek to respond to the
market demands of ME PBM players. If not for Gunboat, I would
likely not be playing ME PBM at all.

This leads onto:
What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

I certainly enjoy the service; but no matter how good the service, I
wouldn't play if I didn't really enjoy the game. Tolkien's world
come to life in a very challenging and engaging game is what really
captures my imagination.

What do you not enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

I love the fact that ME PBM involves playing against other human
beings from around the world. That means as a player I have to take
into account all the intellignece, cunning and unpredictability of
human opponents. What I don't like is what became for me the
overwhelming tediousness of standard team games: the large volume of
email, fog-of-war rapidly evaporating, strategies becoming more and
more mechanical, domineering personalities on the team, unstoppable
curse and agent companies, team-wide tallying of numbers of kills
due to curse, assasination and personal challenge, etc.

But that's why I love the Gunboat variant. Much if not all of that
is eliminated and the game regains all of its original charm,
novelty and excitement.

1) Happy with our level of service?

(Agree/disagree).

Extremely. Professional, friendly, prompt.

What do you enjoy about Our Service?

Genuinely helpful, and willing to explain what you can
and can't do -- and why.

2) The Game

Terrific depth -- every time, I learn a new way to
refine strategy. Lots of ways to play each nation.
Love the interactive aspect -- great fun trading notes
with teammates (and the bad guys!).

What do you not enjoy about the following?

I'll rephrase that to suggest what else you might do.
Mostly, I'd like a larger ME-PBM community, so we had
more new faces and more games. I know you're working
on this, but for what it's worth, I'd suggest:
- tapping any appropriate Middle-Earth sites
- tapping appropriate gaming venues. I stated ME-PBM
not because I love Middle Earth (I... er (hides
face)... actually hadn't read any of the books at the
time) -- I just wanted a good team strategy game.
  It's complex and interactive, and yet it doesn't
require my attention at any particular time of the
week.
  Maybe send info and a trail to game stores? Any
other ideas?
- the Play-By-Mail acronym may be off-putting to some
new players: it sounds woefully outdated. When I
explain the game to friends, they view it as being
like when I played chess with my grandfather by mail
--painfully slow, and a bit quaint.
  The "mail" aspect is misleading: it's actually a
Turn-Based-Play, and that's one way to attract players
who won't, for instance, join a game that requires
being online every Tuesday at 8.

ME-TBP. Best game I've ever played.

Dan N.

···

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I'm sorry - my previous post was out-of-context. I
hadn't read later messages to see this was really a
discussion on Customer Service.

So I'll just say that even when rulings don't go my
way, I've found ME Games to be responsive and fair.

I, too, am sorry for the Australians (if I understand
the situation, I've made the same mistake), but not
all mistakes deserve blame. The response below seems
appropriate.

Dan N

In this case it wasn't our error - the players were

informed before hand,
and did not check the relations. It's happened to a
few players (it's even
happened to our GM team and we did not get an attack
order off because of
it) so be equally fair (or unfair) to everyone we have
to apply the rules
equally.

We're never going to run a perfect service - it's
unfeasible and impossible
but we'll try our best to help out where we can and
run a fair game. I do
sympathise with the team concerned (I've been there
myself as a player and
although it spoilt my enjoyment somewhat our team
accepted the decision and
played on) and I would urge what could be the
strongest team out there to
continue on.

···

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Okay I am interested in this. I want to get a questionnaire out to

players > sometime soon so that I can get a finger on the pulse of
the players. Are players generally...

1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

When I first start back playing a few months back, (after 4 years
away) I thought "Wow these new guys really are customer friendly".
As it turns out now, I am not really sure there is that much
difference in the customer service from the GSI days.

This leads onto:
What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

The best thing I say about your service is that so far my turns get
here on the same day they were processed. While I understand everyone
makes mistakes, getting left out of a game that I had signed up for 4-
6 weeks back still does not sit well with me. I am also not happy
that a Gunboat position in one of my games that is apparently going
unfilled and missing turns. I would rather see it go to other one (or
split to a pair) on the appropriate team rather than languish because
some jack-ass decided he does not have the balls and skill to play
when forced to rely on his own acumen.
I don't know if the position is allied or enemy but I would
rather play 5 vs. 6 with all nations still in, than play in a 10
nation vs. 12 nation game. I realize my problems are rather specific
and don't effect others for the most part.

I like the challenge of match wits with other people in an arena that
not based how fast you click. I also like the Tolkien aspect; it is
really what makes the game IMO. I never would have given it a second
look were it not for the Tolkien back drop. It is unfortunate that
you can't modify the code; the game certainly could be improved
with a few tweaks. In the end, I think this will be the death of
MEPBM.

1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

1: I'm very happy with the level of service.

What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

1,2,3: (All of the above) I like the service, I enjoy the game, and I
enjoy the interaction with other players. I also very much like the
improvements that MeGames has implemented (variants, Palantir mapping
software, etc.)

What do you not enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

3: I don't enjoy when I screw up, cause I can't blame anyone else and
rant about it. Unfortunately, this happens to me all too often. :wink:

I also don't enjoy when something happens that's neither my fault nor
MeGames fault, and that MeGames won't fix. Mind you, I understand why
and don't blame MeGames for it, but it's still a bummer.

However, even if MeGames makes the error, I wouldn't expect them to
correct it if I never caught it in the first place. (ie; NEXT turn
orders messed up because of a previous turn's error that I didn't
catch.)

They're MY turn results. The fact that I paid for them doesn't mean they
are guaranteed error free. (Has ANYONE here never made an error?) As far
as I'm concerned, I've got to look at my own turns and resolve these
issues immediately. Waiting a week (or until after the following turn's
orders fail) is just too late. Bummer, but you just have to live with
it.

Mike Mulka

Okay I am interested in this. I want to get a questionnaire out to

  players > sometime soon so that I can get a finger on the pulse of
  the players. Are players generally...
  >
  > 1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
  > 2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
  > 3) Unhappy with our level of service?
  RD: I am generally happy with the level of day-to-day-service. Hell, I don't know any other GM that would email you to say you messed up or omitted a piece of info and give you the chance to correct it. Furthermore when I've spoken to Harle staff on the phone they have always been polite, efficient and helpful. What more do you want?

  Customers must remember that Harle are also a business and they must make make a profit if they are to continue to run the game. Such continuity is good for both the company, who get a regular source of revenue from satisfied customers, and good for the players, who know that the company running their game ain't gonna go belly up in the forseeable future.

  Being happy with Harle is not the same thing as being happy with the game. Lotsa people have said they want changes of one kind or another. Some changes are within Harle's power (at a price - ask them!), but the first thing they will want, if they are to launch a variant game is enough players, so you need to have at least a dozen players definitely interested before putting it to Harle.

  Other changes Harle cannot do under the terms of their licence. Maybe somebody, one day, will buy out GSI and bring out a radically new version of ME. All I hope is, that they continue to run the existing 1650, 2950 and 4thAge scenarios alongside the new version, so that the players can choose which ones to support.

  Richard.

  When I first start back playing a few months back, (after 4 years
  away) I thought "Wow these new guys really are customer friendly".
  As it turns out now, I am not really sure there is that much
  difference in the customer service from the GSI days.

  > This leads onto:
  > What do you enjoy about the following?
  > 1) Our Service
  > 2) The Game
  > 3) Other

  The best thing I say about your service is that so far my turns get
  here on the same day they were processed. While I understand everyone
  makes mistakes, getting left out of a game that I had signed up for 4-
  6 weeks back still does not sit well with me. I am also not happy
  that a Gunboat position in one of my games that is apparently going
  unfilled and missing turns. I would rather see it go to other one (or
  split to a pair) on the appropriate team rather than languish because
  some jack-ass decided he does not have the balls and skill to play
  when forced to rely on his own acumen.
  I don't know if the position is allied or enemy but I would
  rather play 5 vs. 6 with all nations still in, than play in a 10
  nation vs. 12 nation game. I realize my problems are rather specific
  and don't effect others for the most part.

  I like the challenge of match wits with other people in an arena that
  not based how fast you click. I also like the Tolkien aspect; it is
  really what makes the game IMO. I never would have given it a second
  look were it not for the Tolkien back drop. It is unfortunate that
  you can't modify the code; the game certainly could be improved
  with a few tweaks. In the end, I think this will be the death of
  MEPBM.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Torvanus
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 10:21 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Service

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Okay I am interested in this. I want to get a questionnaire out to players sometime soon so that I can get a finger on the pulse of the players. Are players generally...

1) Happy with our level of service? (Agree/disagree).
2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

Happy with the level of service. I love the new emails that say when I haven't sent my turn in!

This leads onto:
What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

The game is why I play. Service just facilitates my play.

What do you not enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

I do wish new versions of the game could come out, but that's a separate issue. I think ME has done everything they can to take care of me, and I've never had occassion to be upset with them. 3.5 years of play, and still going.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
wrote:

1) Happy with our level of service?
(Agree/disagree).

yes / agree

2) Neither happy nor unhappy? Content?
3) Unhappy with our level of service?

This leads onto:
What do you enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service

e-mail makes it really easy
you keep trying to make things better
I really like AM and Palantir

2) The Game

challenge
is a good destraction from real life

3) Other

What do you not enjoy about the following?
1) Our Service
2) The Game
3) Other

JCC

···

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