All:
After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
team were in.
Thanks for the good service.
Mark
All:
After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
team were in.
Thanks for the good service.
Mark
What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they had to wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle processed yours? I think your opposition would justifiably feel a bit pissed off!
I agree Harle run an excellent service, but if they delay my results, they'd better have a better reason than waiting for the other team's turnsheets to arrive!
Let me draw a parallel. I'm a guard on a railway train. Ten seconds before the time the train is due to depart, I press the button to close the doors. I do not re-open the doors unless somebody or something is trapped in them. I signal the driver to start the train and off we go. If you missed the train, you were late, and that's not my fault. It may not be your fault, but nor is it mine. My job is to run the train safely and on time for the benefit of the vast majority of passengers who boarded it on time. If I waited for every passenger at every station who ran up at the last second wanting the doors re-opened, the train would soon be several minutes late and I would get no end of complaints: "why is the train late AGAIN?" as if every train was late every day which, contrary to what the media would have you believe, is very far from the truth. The problem is that people don't recall the 90%+ of the time when the train delivers them to their destination on time, they only remember the 10%- when it's late.
Players, you are like passengers on a train. You buy your ticket but it is still is up to YOU to get your turns in on time. You can't expect Harle to delay everybody's train because you were late.
Harle, you've got it right. Keep up the good the work!
Richard.
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···
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Jaede
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:49 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Thanks
In response to the train analogy ...
But, an airline might delay its departure until an arriving flight, which has been delayed,
arrives. The folks in the air who boarded their flight on time (ie, e-mailed their turns in
on time) are delayed by a transport mechanism (air delay, or slow network/ISP trouble).
When they finally land and disembark, they'll be glad their next flight (next turn) waited for
them. This is quite different from the folks who missed their flights because they overslept,
etc.
So if Clint et. al. are receiving complaints about email troubles, delays, lack of auto-confirms,
I think they're justified waiting until all the orders come in (within limits, of course!). I've had
turn results get lost on their way to me, late arriving, etc as much as the next player, but
I can appreciate the fact that our current transport media beats the heck out of mailing
3 stapled sheets to England 5 days early and crossing my fingers each turn that they
arrive in time to run <lol> remember those days ??
Eric (ME43, ME147, ME149)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We don't delay turns unless there is an excellent reason. "I've not done my turn as my dog ate my turnsheet," is not such a reason. (You can always ask a team-mate to do your turn if you aren't able to do it). 14 days should be plenty enough for anyone who actually wants to play the game to get a turn in (IMO).
The major reason for not delaying turns is that players then get into the habit of being able to send turns in "just that little bit later" and then a day late, then days late. How do I know this? Been there and done this job for over a decade now.
A normal day at ME includes the following:
1) Turns get printed off - queries and other such non-immediate items are put to the side - immediate items are dealt with.
2) All turns are checked against the GMsheet for each game to see which games are all in.
3) Reminders to the players (2nd reminder mind, not the 1st which is very likely to have been sent out the day before) without turns in will be contacted if we have time. (We're working on a better system for this at present). (Sometimes able to contact the TC if there is one that we know about as well).
4) Turns for the games that are all in are input and input checked - AM turns then done.
5) Those games are sent out - at the same time the rest of the turns are input etc.
6) At some point in the day we are usually left with some games that don't have all the turns in for - we run those then. Generally we choose the games that are least likely to have the players get their turns in. We usually leave Grudge games to last as they are the games usually with most team-play and hence missing a turn the most disastrous. (ALL Missed turns are disastrous, we know we play the game, but some are more so than others!)
7) Edits, queries etc are dealt with, Clint swans into the office looking bleary eyed... 
8) We pre-charge the next days games and contact any missing players.
If you think that a team-mate is unlikely to get a turn in ask for a shadow turn. That does not mean that you contact us after 1 day asking for the NG's turn because he's sent only 10 emails out and you're worried that he's going to miss the next turn. At present we can offer this service for free - over-use it and we'll have to charge to cover our costs.
That's it - thoughts welcome.
Clint
" I agree Harle run an excellent service, but if they delay my results, they'd better have a better reason than waiting for the other team's turnsheets to arrive!"
Mark
What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they
had to wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle
processed yours? I think your opposition would justifiably feel a
bit pissed off!
I'm confused. Are you saying your results were delayed 24 hours?
(Note to outsiders: Richard and I are on opposite sides of the game
in question.) Mine weren't, though I and other players have someimes
seen gaps of 14 hours or so between when the first turns and the
last turns arrive. That's not Harle's fault. It's the internet.
As to the 24 hour delay, if the delay were caused by by opponents
failing to email orders until after the run time, I would be grumpy.
If the delay were caused by internet delays, I would rather have the
turn run with all orders a day late than with missing orders on time.
I'm serious, Richard. If you guys have an email problem, contact me.
I'd even support re-running a turn. I want to crush you guys through
superior strategy, not technical errors.
Mark
After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
team were in.Thanks for the good service.
**How come I'm never in "these games"? We always end up having someone die
from special service.
Russ
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Jaede" <taurnil@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Thanks
All:
After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
team were in.Thanks for the good service.
Mark
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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Comparing this to mass transit is a bit extreme. In a game, the neutrals,
FP, and DS are all part of the same "party" waiting to board the "train".
Do you want to leave on the train though part of your party is unaccounted
for through no fault of their own ("traffic jam", internet jam, whatever)?
I could live with taking the "next train" every now and then when two or
three of our "party" are caught up in a "traffic jam". Of course I'm not
suggesting games be delayed every time "THAT guy" is "late AGAIN" . . . just
when we have obvious problems such as what occurred today.
Russ
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Jaede
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:49 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] ThanksAll:
After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
team were in.Thanks for the good service.
Mark
What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they had to
wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle processed yours? I
think your opposition would justifiably feel a bit pissed off!
I agree Harle run an excellent service, but if they delay my results,
they'd better have a better reason than waiting for the other team's
turnsheets to arrive!
Let me draw a parallel. I'm a guard on a railway train. Ten seconds
before the time the train is due to depart, I press the button to close the
doors. I do not re-open the doors unless somebody or something is trapped
in them. I signal the driver to start the train and off we go. If you
missed the train, you were late, and that's not my fault. It may not be
your fault, but nor is it mine. My job is to run the train safely and on
time for the benefit of the vast majority of passengers who boarded it on
time. If I waited for every passenger at every station who ran up at the
last second wanting the doors re-opened, the train would soon be several
minutes late and I would get no end of complaints: "why is the train late
AGAIN?" as if every train was late every day which, contrary to what the
media would have you believe, is very far from the truth. The problem is
that people don't recall the 90%+ of the time when the train delivers them
to their destination on time, they only remember the 10%- when it's late.
Players, you are like passengers on a train. You buy your ticket but it
is still is up to YOU to get your turns in on time. You can't expect Harle
to delay everybody's train because you were late.
Harle, you've got it right. Keep up the good the work!
Richard.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Mark
What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they
had to wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle
processed yours? I think your opposition would justifiably feel a
bit pissed off!
I agree Harle run an excellent service, but if they delay my
results, they'd better have a better reason than waiting for the
other team's turnsheets to arrive!
Richard,
Regarding the late/missing turn submissions, I'm one of Mark's
teammates and sent my turn in on SUNDAY and on WEDNESDAY (today) I
got back the acknowledgement. I ended up having to try several
different ISPs on Monday before I could get an auto-ack. In all the
years I've been playing MEPBM, I've never seen this kind of delay.
This is not normal in my experience and would fit into the category
of circumstances beyond my control rather than tardiness on my part.
BTW, I had submitted orders prior but as usual in a grudge game was
having to make corrections up through the weekend. I don't know if
there is anyway to find out what's causing (or caused) the slowdown
but I do hope it's a temporary situation with whatever is causing the
bottleneck. Guess I'll found out in two weeks.
BTW, how does it feel to have all those freeps entering the Mordor
Land Rush? 
Regards,
Eric
If you're referring here to what I'd call putting in contingency orders, I find your perspective here to be curious. I can understand that you don't to be contacted after a day, but in my experience, this is only done after about 10 days and when a player has sent zero e-mails to the team. I'd have thought it was in your highest interest to keep a viable position alive, to avoid all the rest of the players on a team getting peed off, and dropping. It takes some considerable effort to chase a team mate who appears to have been snatched by aliens, ask for his turn, analyse it, and prepare contingency orders which may not even be used if he pops up at the last moment. I'd have thought that it constitutes _us_ doing _you_ a service as much as you doing us one for which you might charge.
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
···
At 01:19 15/05/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
If you think that a team-mate is unlikely to get a turn in ask for a shadow
turn. That does not mean that you contact us after 1 day asking for the
NG's turn because he's sent only 10 emails out and you're worried that he's
going to miss the next turn. At present we can offer this service for free
- over-use it and we'll have to charge to cover our costs.
Hi Russ, I play most of the time in two pre-arranged team games, and one open game, and you should know that there is an ENORMOUS difference between the former, where Special Services and drops are exceptionally rare, and the latter, where they happen all the time. This is why I have been an advocate for so long of a Player Rating System - as a mechanism for allowing more players to find reliable fellows to build good teams.
I never fail to chuckle at the unintended irony of the term "Special Service" though. It always makes me think of those films when the captured agent is handed over from the army to the Gestapo for "Special Interrogation".
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
···
At 05:51 15/05/2003, R.K.Floyd wrote:
> After all the comments about email delays, I want to note that in my
> game Clint held off running the turns until all the orders from my
> team were in.
>
> Thanks for the good service.**How come I'm never in "these games"? We always end up having someone die
from special service.
OK... I don't get this. Clint basically said that as a general policy
they'll send out a copy of a turn to a teammate/team captain for FREE if
the player goes missing. So basically, they WON'T charge you for sending
out another turn file under certain circumstances, in the interest of
maintaining a viable position and keeping the team from getting bummed
out. Then he stated that IF the policy gets abused, he might reconsider
it.
This seems like an extremely reasonable policy to me. What's the
problem?
Mike Mulka
From: Laurence G. Tilley [mailto:laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 12:29 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Contingency ordersIf you think that a team-mate is unlikely to get a turn in ask for a
shadow
turn. That does not mean that you contact us after 1 day asking for
the
NG's turn because he's sent only 10 emails out and you're worried that
he's
going to miss the next turn. At present we can offer this service for
free
- over-use it and we'll have to charge to cover our costs.
If you're referring here to what I'd call putting in contingency
orders, I
find your perspective here to be curious. I can understand that you
don't
to be contacted after a day, but in my experience, this is only done
after
about 10 days and when a player has sent zero e-mails to the team. I'd
have thought it was in your highest interest to keep a viable position
alive, to avoid all the rest of the players on a team getting peed off,
and
dropping. It takes some considerable effort to chase a team mate who
appears to have been snatched by aliens, ask for his turn, analyse it,
and
prepare contingency orders which may not even be used if he pops up at
the
···
-----Original Message-----
At 01:19 15/05/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
last moment. I'd have thought that it constitutes _us_ doing _you_ a
service as much as you doing us one for which you might charge.Laurence G. Tilley
I was interested in what Brad had to say yesterday, about the tendency in this group for anyone saying anything faintly critical to get swamped by a bunch of people who feel they have to defend Clint against all comers, and who quickly attempt to make the person offering the criticism look like they are slagging Harlequin in all respects. It was a perceptive and timely observation, but you seem to have missed it Mike.
I don't have "a problem" at all, you are exaggerating my words by describing it as such. I was merely making an observation that the contingency orders deal is very beneficial to Harlequin. I believe Clint should be grateful to players who go to the effort, and not, at this stage anyway' be talking about charging. The player who submits contingency orders is doing the other players in that game a great service. He's therefore making it a much better game, and doing Harlequin a service. The effort it takes to chase the player, ask for the turnsheet, analyse and do the turn, is rarely fun, and must surely take more effort than it takes Clint to pop off another copy of a turn by e-mail.
In most cases I've seen, the offer to do a contingency turn has been accompanied with an offer to pay for it if the player does not play, and to take it over, or find someone to take it over thereafter. That means, as well as the benefit to the game as a whole, and the Game as a whole, that position is more likely to be played on at £4.50 a shot, rather than be dropped. _Surely_ it must be a good investment for them to go to the trouble to simply send an extra turn out to a player offering to help.
But it is an observation Mike, not a problem, and only a very mild criticism of Clint's choice of words.
···
At 08:23 15/05/2003, Urzahil wrote:
OK... I don't get this. Clint basically said that as a general policy
they'll send out a copy of a turn to a teammate/team captain for FREE if
the player goes missing. So basically, they WON'T charge you for sending
out another turn file under certain circumstances, in the interest of
maintaining a viable position and keeping the team from getting bummed
out. Then he stated that IF the policy gets abused, he might reconsider
it.This seems like an extremely reasonable policy to me. What's the
problem?Mike Mulka
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Laurence G. Tilley [mailto:laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk]
>Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 12:29 AM
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Contingency orders
>
>At 01:19 15/05/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
>>If you think that a team-mate is unlikely to get a turn in ask for a
>shadow
>>turn. That does not mean that you contact us after 1 day asking for
the
>>NG's turn because he's sent only 10 emails out and you're worried that
>he's
>>going to miss the next turn. At present we can offer this service for
>free
>>- over-use it and we'll have to charge to cover our costs.
>
>If you're referring here to what I'd call putting in contingency
orders, I
>find your perspective here to be curious. I can understand that you
don't
>to be contacted after a day, but in my experience, this is only done
after
>about 10 days and when a player has sent zero e-mails to the team. I'd
>have thought it was in your highest interest to keep a viable position
>alive, to avoid all the rest of the players on a team getting peed off,
and
>dropping. It takes some considerable effort to chase a team mate who
>appears to have been snatched by aliens, ask for his turn, analyse it,
and
>prepare contingency orders which may not even be used if he pops up at
the
>last moment. I'd have thought that it constitutes _us_ doing _you_ a
>service as much as you doing us one for which you might charge.
>
>Laurence G. TilleyMiddle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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Laurence G. Tilley
If you're referring here to what I'd call putting in contingency orders, I
find your perspective here to be curious. I can understand that you don't
to be contacted after a day, but in my experience,
*** In your experience that might well be the case. In ours it's not always the case - that's why I said it...
this is only done after
about 10 days and when a player has sent zero e-mails to the team. I'd
have thought it was in your highest interest to keep a viable position
alive, to avoid all the rest of the players on a team getting peed off, and
dropping.
*** Yes - but all things within reason.
Clint
The
effort it takes to chase the player, ask for the turnsheet, analyse and do
the turn, is rarely fun, and must surely take more effort than it takes
Clint to pop off another copy of a turn by e-mail.
** The question then is why has (or why don't) any other PBM company do this?
Surely_ it must be a good investment for them to go to the
trouble to simply send an extra turn out to a player offering to help.
*** We feel that it is as well hence we do it.
Clint
>The
>effort it takes to chase the player, ask for the turnsheet, analyse and do
>the turn, is rarely fun, and must surely take more effort than it takes
>Clint to pop off another copy of a turn by e-mail.** The question then is why has (or why don't) any other PBM company do this?
Well do you want to be the best, or do you want to judge yourself by the standard of what lesser companies do? I don't play with them.
Surely_ it must be a good investment for them to go to the
>trouble to simply send an extra turn out to a player offering to help.*** We feel that it is as well hence we do it.
That's good. I rest my case, and acknowledge what you said about others asking unreasonably for shadow turns, first I'd heard of it.
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
···
At 15:49 15/05/2003, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
In response to the train analogy ...
But, an airline might delay its departure until an arriving flight, which has been delayed,
arrives. The folks in the air who boarded their flight on time (ie, e-mailed their turns in
on time) are delayed by a transport mechanism (air delay, or slow network/ISP trouble).
When they finally land and disembark, they'll be glad their next flight (next turn) waited for
them. This is quite different from the folks who missed their flights because they overslept,
etc.
RD: Yes, but the folks who had to wait for the latecomers will be well pissed off having to wait for the latecomers, regardless of cause. "I've GOT to be at xyz by 3425hrs for a VITAL meeting." Trust me, I have experience of the travelling public!
So if Clint et. al. are receiving complaints about email troubles, delays, lack of auto-confirms,
I think they're justified waiting until all the orders come in (within limits, of course!). I've had
turn results get lost on their way to me, late arriving, etc as much as the next player, but
I can appreciate the fact that our current transport media beats the heck out of mailing
3 stapled sheets to England 5 days early and crossing my fingers each turn that they
arrive in time to run <lol> remember those days ??
Eric (ME43, ME147, ME149)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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···
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Blische
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Thanks
had to wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle
processed yours? I think your opposition would justifiably feel a
bit pissed off!
I'm confused. Are you saying your results were delayed 24 hours?
(Note to outsiders: Richard and I are on opposite sides of the game
in question.) Mine weren't, though I and other players have someimes
seen gaps of 14 hours or so between when the first turns and the
last turns arrive. That's not Harle's fault. It's the internet.
RD: No, I'm not saying my results were delayed 24 hrs. I am saying IF they were delayed by that much because Harle waited for late orders from the opposition, regardless of the cause, I would be mightily aggrieved at Harle for not running the game on time.
I'm playing 2 nations and the turns arrived 12 hrs apart. Harle tell me that they sent them at the same time, and I believe them. What bugs me is that I tried and tried to pick up the second turn until I had to stop and go to bed, but all the time I was getting the response "no more messages received." As you quite rightly say this is the fault of something on the internet, I suspect my damned useless ISP. I won't mention their name so that I can slag them off without getting sued for libel.
As to the 24 hour delay, if the delay were caused by by opponents
failing to email orders until after the run time, I would be grumpy.
If the delay were caused by internet delays, I would rather have the
turn run with all orders a day late than with missing orders on time.
I'm serious, Richard. If you guys have an email problem, contact me.
I'd even support re-running a turn. I want to crush you guys through
superior strategy, not technical errors.
Mark
RD: No, I am not blaming technical errors, just joining in the debate. I won't discuss strategy until the game is over. But did Enion enjoy seeing his capital burn? We enjoyed sending Galadriel and Cirdan to the Undying Lands on an early ship. Heh heh heh. Sorry, like you in an earlier message, I couldn't resist a little dig!
Richard.
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···
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Jaede
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:07 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Thanks
> Mark
> What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they
Mark
> What if your opposition got all their turns in on time, but they
had to wait an extra 24 hours for their results whilst Harle
processed yours? I think your opposition would justifiably feel a
bit pissed off!
>
> I agree Harle run an excellent service, but if they delay my
results, they'd better have a better reason than waiting for the
other team's turnsheets to arrive!
Richard,
Regarding the late/missing turn submissions, I'm one of Mark's
teammates and sent my turn in on SUNDAY and on WEDNESDAY (today) I
got back the acknowledgement. I ended up having to try several
different ISPs on Monday before I could get an auto-ack. In all the
years I've been playing MEPBM, I've never seen this kind of delay.
This is not normal in my experience and would fit into the category
of circumstances beyond my control rather than tardiness on my part.
BTW, I had submitted orders prior but as usual in a grudge game was
having to make corrections up through the weekend. I don't know if
there is anyway to find out what's causing (or caused) the slowdown
but I do hope it's a temporary situation with whatever is causing the
bottleneck. Guess I'll found out in two weeks.
BTW, how does it feel to have all those freeps entering the Mordor
Land Rush?
Regards,
Eric
RD: They didn't last long did they Eric? RIP Fozzywig, Kynoden etc.
Richard.
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···
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Todd
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 6:23 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Excessive Delays
I was interested in what Brad had to say yesterday, about the tendency
in
this group for anyone saying anything faintly critical to get swamped
by a
bunch of people who feel they have to defend Clint against all comers,
and
who quickly attempt to make the person offering the criticism look like
they are slagging Harlequin in all respects. It was a perceptive and
timely observation, but you seem to have missed it Mike.
It seems to me that you might be missing the point here. I wanted to
know what part of the previous message you were being critical of. This
wasn't clear to me, so I thought I'd ask. I wasn't attempting to make
you look like you were "slagging Harlequin in all respects". (I believe
"hyperbole" might be the best description for that statement.) You seem
to have read an awful lot into my question that just wasn't there.
I don't have "a problem" at all, you are exaggerating my words by
describing it as such. I was merely making an observation that the
contingency orders deal is very beneficial to Harlequin. I believe
Clint
should be grateful to players who go to the effort, and not, at this
stage
anyway' be talking about charging. The player who submits contingency
orders is doing the other players in that game a great service. He's
therefore making it a much better game, and doing Harlequin a service.
The
effort it takes to chase the player, ask for the turnsheet, analyse and
do
the turn, is rarely fun, and must surely take more effort than it takes
Clint to pop off another copy of a turn by e-mail.
But it is an observation Mike, not a problem, and only a very mild
criticism of Clint's choice of words.
OK, if I didn't use the exact wording you felt most correct, then I
apologize. If it will be less of an issue for you, you may substitute
"criticism" for "problem" in my previous question. It just seems to me
that, (word lawyering aside), a person who feels the need to criticize
something is a person who has a problem with something. (Otherwise why
bother to criticize?) If you choose to call it an "observation" that's
fine, but if an "observation" is critical of something, (even very
mildly so), then it's not a strictly neutral "observation".
So, to restate the issue as I understand it, Clint basically explained
that:
1. MeGames will currently send out a FREE copy of a PDF file to a
teammate (if someone disappears) in order to facilitate them putting in
shadow orders. (Seems very reasonable to me.)
2. However, if this gets abused by people asking for copies of
teammate's PDF files frivolously, he would have to re-evalute that
policy. (Also seems very reasonable to me.)
Your criticism (however mild) seems to be that Clint shouldn't even
mention the possibility of charging for this service under any
circumstances, as this might somehow upset players. IF this is correct,
then I would have to disagree with you. (Or you could say I have "a
problem" with that stance... or perhaps a very mild criticism of your
choice of words. You choose.)
From what I read, he didn't seem to be saying he might decide to charge
for this in the future at a whim, or that he didn't appreciate the
people who would go out of their way to help their team by keeping a
position alive. It looked to me like he was simply covering himself. If
he didn't include that second caveat, then it is highly likely that
someone in the future who abused the policy (and you know they're out
there) and was then charged would scream bloody murder that MeGames lied
to them.
Mike Mulka
OK apology accepted. As for your other points I feel that I explained myself adequately both before your response and afterwards in my final response to Clint. You don't seem to say much more than you said before, and what I had to say clearly did not impress you. We'll just have to beg to differ on this one.
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
···
At 05:55 16/05/2003, you wrote:
OK, if I didn't use the exact wording you felt most correct, then I
apologize