From: Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:47:57 -0800 (PST)
> [...]
> > > From: Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:29:27 -0800 (PST)
> > > [...]
> > > What erosion
> > > of the fog of war? I've not seen them provide players
> > > any information that the player couldn't get by reading
> > > all their teammates' pdfs.
> >
> > Really? Where do you go to get the answers to your MEPBM
> > riddles when you can't figure them out for yourself?
>
> There were any number of sources available. Players, not the
> company, put these lists together.... All the company did was
> put this player gathered information into an easy to find
> location so that all players would have equal access.
1. That's not "get by reading all their teammates' pdfs".
2. Putting it in a one-stop shopping location is giving all players
equal access...leveling the playing field...making it simpler.
Ed's point exactly.
Note I'm not arguing if it's a good thing or a bad thing. Just
pointing out a detail error in your argument.
I also thought you were failing to understand Ed's point, but the
remainder of this message makes it clear you *do* understand it, you
merely neglected to acknowldge that in your disagreement with it. So
my apologies for over-explaining several items there. 
> > You forgot web pages. But I agree with your assertion here
> > in most ways; the fog of war regarding Dragons, Riddles,
> > Seasons, Production, Market Influences, and so on were all
> > eroding before ME Games consolidated all those erodants
> > into a one-stop-shopping erodant store.
> >
> > However, the fog of not knowing who in the Real World [TM]
> > was playing what Nation was eroded by places like Harlequin
> > and ME Games, as I understand it.
>
> What? We used to send each other little contact cards all
> the time. I don't see the difference between a contact card
> and the front sheet, except that once again, the front sheet
> makes it easier.
Did you not send those cards to the game provider and they forwarded
them on?
And was it considered to be in "bad form" to supply E-Mail addresses?
I wasn't playing back then. Looked like a great way for the game
provider to adjust your messages to remove that kind of content.
Which, now that I think about it, they probably didn't do, which only
expedited the already natural evolution of this game into a Team Game.
> He seems to like infighting and backstabbing.... I mean,
> running your nation with one eye to team goals and one eye to
> nation goals.....
Yeah. And most people don't like those kinds of games. Ed seems to
assert that it's because they don't have the skill to adjust to
shifting sands. I would argue that, skill notwithstanding, I find
games more fun, most of the time, when there is a team spirit that
motivates people to make sacrifices for the team. It may or may not
be a matter of skill, Ed's welcome to his opinion on that; I'm not
sure I agree that's the case all the time. I'm not even sure it's the
case the majority of the time. Preference and Skill are not
homogenous sets, although I suppose it would be reasonable to expect a
fairly large union set between them.
I think the occassional dip into the murky waters of Diplomacy or
Survivor! can be fun, but I don't think it's where I'd want to spend
all my time. I certainly don't want to *pay* to spend all my time
there.
Most people apparently agree with at least the end of that statement.
> I prefer a game where EVERYONE keeps both eyes on the team
> goal and utterly ignores the personal aspect.
It seems most of us do, in fact, prefer this. I guess that's what Ed
means by "an English spirt of the game" mentality. I, frankly, take
great pride in making Nation sacrifices for my Team, so long as it
doesn't actually kill my Nation. That's why in 2950 I like playing
the Dwarves; you can sacrifice to the hilt and unless the DS are
stupid enough to take their eyes off the Northmen/Silvan and
Rohan/Gondors efforts long enough to sack the Dwarven Capital early,
it won't kill you. If it does kill you, several DS Nations die as a
result. Sacrificing for the team is easy when you're the Dwarves.
And I love playing them for just that reason.
Well, that and the fact that the two things you focus on in 2950 as
the Dwarves is Economy and Military. Leave the Magic and Character
War to those pesky Elves and Rangers. I want to build an Economy and
move troops around, smashing stuff. To quote someone from an early
article in either Mouth or Bree, I'm an unrepentant wargamer. My
biggest complaint about MEPBM is that it is difficult to turn it into
a "normal" wargame, 'cuz the DS just can't put up a good fight unless
they get the Agent edge. So it denegrates into a Character War rather
quickly.
But it's still fun, and military still plays a critical role. So I
play the Derfs. I get to build an Economy, I get to move troops
around, and I get to donate stuff to other team members all the time.
My challenge is balancing those three things against the roughly two I
can afford to do at a time. 
But I digress (again).
> > Ed is, if I may be so bold as to paraphrase his previous
> > arguments on the matter, of the opinion that this element
> > of the game constitutes artistic genius, and in his opinion
> > those who don't like this are, at least in this regard, a
> > bit simpler people than those who do like it.
>
> Then I guess I'm just dumb.... To me, it takes 10 minutes to
> figure out a set of orders for my nation. Not a big deal.
That would make you smarter than me; I take an hour or two most of the
time; more on the opening turns. But then I am an accounting detail
nut, which is where most of that time goes, plus I tend to plan 5
turns ahead if I have time time, otherwise only 2.
To "dumb down" the game, however, does not imply that the players are
dumb, only that dumber players *could* play the game, a detail that I
think even Ed may have overlooked in his zeal.
> It is the communication and coordination aspects that take
> the real talent. These are the aspects I most enjoy. These
> are the aspects that are ruined when each nation is looking
> out for themselves.
A "Team-Firster" would think that way, yes. And, apparently, most of
us are, in fact, Team-Firsters. Hence companies which have done a
good job of supporting Team-Firsters lasting longer than those which
did not.
> > That last bit is a touch arrogant, but surely we all have
> > our moments where arrogance guides us a bit more than
> > perhaps we'd like.
>
> Who me.... never.
I was making a general statement, and any specificity was intended to
refer to Ed, but your humor still stands on its own feet.
> I value a team win MUCH more than I value my personal victory
> points.
Most of us do, and that apparently troubles Ed. Which makes sense;
the fact that most of us like this style of game better is precisely
why Ed can't get a game of the style he likes anymore. And there
hasn't been another game like MEPBM that even comes close to providing
this kind of game, balancing cloak-n-dagger with team spirit to
produce maximum chaos and realism.
So he's lamenting the loss of the one thing that provided this. And I
don't think he's going to stop until a replacement comes along.
> > > I love that this aspect has been removed so much, that I
> > just about got myself banned from the game by fighting
> > AGAINST the PRS that returned these STUPID, much harted
> > personal victory points to ANY kind of importance at all.
> >
> > What or who is/are/were "the PRS"?
>
> Player rating system. http://www.middleearthgames.com Bottom
> entry in the left menu.
>
> I'm SO GLAD that most people have totally ignored this rating
> system.
Heh. Caught me.
I don't pay attention to those. I may have glanced at it once or
twice, but it's not worth any effort. You get nothing for personal
victories these days. So why bother? Even the bragging rights aren't
particularly worth it, since nobody else cares, either.
It's like running over to my neighbor and gloating, "I got a
snorgfluffle before you did, I got a snorgfluffle before you did!"
They might wonder what a snorg-whatchamacallit was, and they might
even get as far as wondering why they would want one before closing
the door and going back to their football game. No value in the
gloat. (Not that I'm particularly a gloater anyway; even in Real Life
[TM] I place far more emphasis on the team win than the personal one.)
Individual victory conditions are dead. The only useful light they
will ever see is if 25 people enter a game with the complete and total
understanding that they don't *want* a Team-First game. 'Cuz if the
10 people on the other side ignore the PVCs, and your side doesn't,
you're going to lose unless they are astoundingly incompetent.
> > > The aspect that has been removed, was an aspect I
> > HATED!!!!!!
> >
> > Yes, and there still appears to be some emotional energy
> > attached to that reaction.
>
> MUCH!
[poke, poke] (I wonder what happens if I push THIS button?)
> > In Ed's opinion (again, summarizing and paraphrasing, and
> > thus risking a lack of perfect accuracy), these things
> > required skills which are not needed when you have perfect
> > communication on the teams. Surely you cannot argue
> > against this one detail.
>
> I can argue that I do not like that aspect of the game.
Agreed. It just seemed like you were also not understanding his
points. I see now that, for the most part, you did understand.
> > So take the next step: Ed feels that removing the need for
> > these skills in the game is a "dumbing down" of the game.
>
> Then I'm all for dumbing it down.
Most of us are. And ME Games noticed. Which is why they won.
And I completely concur with the previous poster who said it wasn't
stupidity, but laziness, to which ME Games needs to cater, 'cuz there
are a LOT of us lazy bums out here. Lazy enough to be willing to pay
someone to do this for (and to) us.
You know, though, the all-Neutral game could include a lot of the
backstabbing stuff that Ed wants...but then it eliminates the team
stuff that he also likes. He wants that perfect blend, which has long
since been torn assunder by time and the Internet.
It was, of course, inevitable.
We can't get the old fog-and-ignorance game back particularly easily.
And the interest in it is too low to expend much effort on it. In
this regard, we are at an impasse.
But we can look forward. *I* am looking forward to the killer client
app. And if I finish the project I'm working on now and find that the
killer client app isn't complete, I just might offer my services to
MEPBM in order to help get it done. It is where MEPBM needs to go.
···
_________________
Steven K. Mariner
skmme@bhmk.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~marinersk/
http://www.whirlyjigmusic.com/